Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Build Discussion Wizard Class Implementation: Discussion & Feedback

You know I played 2E and 3.5e for years and I actually prefer 5E for a number of reasons.

However, the problem - as has been pointed out is that you don't understand 5E at all. Otherwise you would know that Wizards only get 1 level 9 spell slot but they DO get Arcane recovery points, and there are items in game that can recover other spells slots - potentially up to 9th level. There is an item in Bg3 that can recover any level spell slot once per long rest.

So you can cast 1 x 9th level spell in a combat situation, but then you can spend Arcane recovery charges to recover that 9th level slot without having to long rest. So if BG3 allowed you to go to level 20 then you would potentially get 3 uses of a 9th level spell per long rest.

Then there are the potions that let you recover all spell slots and act as a long rest for a single character.

But again, your frustration is stemming from a lack of understanding of the core system and why it was designed this way.

For starters, it's important to understand that 5E D&D has been the most financially successful version of D&D in the history of the game and has brought in the largest new player base - at 10 million players. 3.5 managed to hook about 3 million. 2nd edition was under 1 million.

The reason is that it's solved a lot of the problems:

1) The proficiency rules are highly simplified, with the majority of things just requiring Advantage or Disadvantage - so no need to look up a million different modifiers.
2) The role versus class system has been upended. Clerics are not stuck as healbots anymore. Healing as a role is not required at all with how cheap healing potions are (this is a specific feature of tabletop) so no more healbots. Additionally the Rogue role can be held by a half dozen classes. So a specific "rogue" is not needed anymore. The Tank role has been vastly opened up, and any class can be Damage dealers.
3) The variable BAB system has been thankfully shitcanned. It made zero sense and was a gatekeeper to playing certain classes in ways people wanted to play them. Variable BAB is the worst part of the previous editions and its pathetic that it's still in Pathfinder - which otherwise would have been a decent system except for that.
4) Spellcasters - while still insanely powerful - have been better balanced at both ends of the leveling spectrum. They are not AS Godlike at high levels, but not as weak at lower levels either. It's a welcome change.
5) There is no longer 10 minutes of buffing right before 5 minutes of combat for all the casters to do. Mechanically this limitation makes games flow so much better when you either cast a handful of ritual buffs after your long rest or you throw one out during combat and it's the only one you can do because of concentration rules - allowing you to spend the rest of the battle in actual fighting.
6) Bards and Druids are much more viable in combat/support while still being insanely useful in roleplay. It used to be only 1 of these things was true.

Also, I have not had issues with the concentration thing past Act 1. It's so easy to find items that give you Advantage on concentration (constitution) saving throws that you rarely need Warcaster or resilient. However, you should still protect your caster unless they are super armored up. Obviously you shoudl never run a caster with a Con below 14 unless you want to have a more difficult experience.

So basically 2 wizard / 10 sorc and you can also have all the flexibility, evocation specialization, metamagics, and just give up your level 6 spell slot?

Lol, vastly superior to pure Wizard.

But what flexibility do you even need when 90% of the spells are garbage? Wizards in 5e simply seem like a newbie trick, the flexibility seems great on paper until you realize it really isnt.

You can still only cast the same number of spells either way, and I haven't found any need for any of the 'utility spells', which you can also get most of on Druids anyway and the game gives you 2 druid companions.

People mentioning 'I've played wizard and its good', but have you actually compared it to a sorc's metamagics? Have you even seen what heightened holds do? Nullify all the mobs in most encounters and score auto crits? What utility would I need to ever have to give up heightened hold?

Yes Bg3 implements Sculpt spell in a way that it applies to any spell you cast whether it be from a scroll, wand, item or other class.

It's not a bad trade, but you then miss out on Empowered Evocation at level 10 - which is insane especially when it comes to Magic Missile (an evocation spell) as EVERY single missile then gets your +6 damage modifier (I have 22 Int on Gale) which averages to 8-10 damage per missile. A level 5 Magic Missile with Psychic Spark necklace shoots 7 missiles for 56-70 damage. Level 1 throws out 4 missiles 32-40 damage.

I've played every edition of D&D since the original AD&D. The "classic" wizard was basically useless at low levels, resorting to pinging with a crossbow from the back ranks, if anything. But, at higher levels, when fighters were retiring from adventuring to be feudal lords, they had universe-changing power. Over the years, that's gotten more and more flattened — more useful at low levels, much less god-like at the top. Of course, with BG3 only going up to 12th level, that tier doesn't really come into it... but there's another fundamental problem.

In a tabletop game, utility spells and int-based skills can make a big difference and be useful and fun. A CRPG is by nature combat-heavy, and also needs to deliver story information — key points really _can't_ be hidden behind a "a wizard needs to research this". A human DM can adjust based on the party, and can find ways to center a wizard character's abilities.

Also, of course, CRGP combat focus means spell slots go fast, leaving you quickly back to "ping ping ping" with cantrips. Without changing the game a lot, one easy buff would be to introduce wands as a magic item — and make them keyed to Int as the spell ability for saves (and maybe even automatic level-scaling — add your int bonus to the level spell you get from one wand charge?). And, make them recharge on a short rest. (Change the "if you use all charges, and then get a 1 on a d20 roll, the wand crumbles" into "won't recharge until morning".) This wouldn't change the utility aspect, but at least give some differentiated combat options.

Oh, and one little thing that might make some difference: bring back the Identify spell, and use the Variant: More Difficult Identification rule from the DMG": If you prefer magic items to have a greater mystique, consider removing the ability to identify the properties of a magic item during a short rest, and require the identify spell, experimentation, or both to reveal what a magic item does. This is a wizard only spell (or bard). Make it so properties are only revealed (and enabled!) slowly if you don't cast this.

(I haven't actually tried Detect Magic, ever... does it help with looting? Because if it does, that sure would be a godsend!)

The surest way to appreciate the sheer flexibility of the wizard in Baldur's Gate 3 is to go play a mage in Baldur's Gate 1.

Go on. Hop to it. It'll be a life-changing experience, I assure you.

In any case, the real advantage to the wizard vs. the sorcerer, warlock, or bard is being able to learn spells from scrolls and just... have them in your spellbook at all times. The other wizard-adjacent spellcasting classes learn spells on level-up, which isn't too restrictive since you can respec with Withers, but it does mean that they lack the ability to freely swap prepared spells in and out without going back to camp and paying for a respec and going through the motions of DOING the respec level-by-level each time. So wizards can get a fair bit more use out of those situational spells, by virtue of not having as much pressure on them to choose between a situational spell at level-up and a more obviously flexible spell.

I think it is really weird how for one people assume that you just didn't try Wizard or that it is all down to 5E while completing ignoring how Larian homebrew massively benefits the Sorcerer.

Looking at general rule changes we have:

• Being able to cast more than one levelled spell per turn is a massive buff to Quicken metamagic
• It make Haste much more powerful and Sorcerers can twin it - moreover twinning spells is multiplicative with the extra spellcast action, meaning Sorcerers benefit more than Wizards
• Easy and cheap respec gives you almost the same flexibility as a Wizard
• A defining feature of Wizards (learning spells from scrolls) is given to every full caster for the low cost of a one level dip in Wizard
• Wizard passive boni like sculpt spells apply to Sorcerer spells

If we compare more specific changes just to Sorcerers also got buffed by:

• The level 14 bloodline feature is given at level 11
• You get an extra metamagic pick
• Heightened Spell is intended to apply only one target. Applying it to all is another massive buff.

In contrasts, Wizard do not get their (often powerful) level 14 features early - which means in the context of BG 3 that they do not get it at all.

The evoker bonus isn't too bad, but a draconic bloodline buff to Fire is almost as useful. Just use scorching ray instead of Magic Missile. It also comes with an AC bonus (meaning you do not need Mage Armor = essentially 1 free spell pick) and extra hit points. Most of the time you don't really want to spend a Level 5 slot on an upcast Magic Missile instead of Fireball or another AoE spell anyway.

Fact is that you don't need the flexibility. Many spells are bad and the amount of spells a Sorcerers gets is plenty.

The main thing that Wizards have over Sorcerer is better summons, especially Elementals. That's one more reason why the Evoker (2) + Draconic Bloodline (10) is so powerful, since you also get the Wizard exclusive spells.

5e Wizard vs Sorcerer balance is fine. It is Larian who screwed up. This is not even mentioning relatively minor and trivial issues like scribing scrolls being too expensive compared to magic items - scribing scrolls follows RAW exactly but all other items are priced too cheaply.

I'd propose that Larian should implement a somewhat buffed Metamagic Adept Feat, that gives half your level rounded down Sorcery points instead of a a fixed 2. Given how easily Sorcerers can obtain the main advantages of the Wizard, this is only fair.

E.G Wizards cannot do this:



My guess is that Larian is going to nerf heighten if they ever see this video.

Have you ever played a wizard in BG2? If you reached lvl. 8 or higher wizards became cool. In DnD 5 they have mighty "cantrips" like Gandalf. Cantrips are stupid in general why do we need them? Because there are not enough spell slots. If we had enough spell slots we would not need cantrips. So the concept is stupid in general.

If there would be a fifth foe in the video for example a farting goblin next to your sorcerer you would immediately lose concentration.

It's worth noticing that Sorcerers are also better than WIzards at maintaining concentration since they get their proficiency bonus to constitution saves. A sorcerer with decent constitution and warcaster is therefore reasonably safe with maintaining concentration.

Wizards can get concentration proficiency by taking a feat or there might be some item that gives it (I don't recall offhand) but it either costs you a feat or an item slot.

So far this is per RAW, it just interacts with the way Larian designs encounter to make Wizards even worse than Sorcerers.

In tabletop Sorcerers aren't better than wizards in many ways. They get nothing on short rest, they use the same spellcasting rules as everyone else and while they can get more usage from their spells by twinning haste, chromatic orb, etc. They have got the lowest amount of spells known and can't swap them every long rest.

However, Baldurs gate 3 massively buffed them, they also homebrewed many rules.

A Sorcerer can cast haste on themselves + 1 other person, then fireball, then quicken fireball. They basically cast 3 spells in one turn, while in tabletop they could either:

A) cast fireball with action, quicken a cantrip (but not twin it)

B) quicken fireball and twin cast cantrip, but not have access to counterspell.

Are wizard bad? Not really. The problem is that best way to play BG 3 is to nova the enemy and then lost rest after 1 or 2 fights, which the sorcerer wins due to rule changes.

It doesn’t help that spells such as: hypnotic pattern, sleep and polymorph just suck or that they can be easily remedied by enemies showing their friends.

To make matters worse, grease makes you lose a concentration and the rest of your turn, if you slip. While control spells were nerfed to the ground.

To sum up, wizard are great in tabletop, but much worse than in BG 3 due to reasons above.

This is interesting, personally I prefer playing a Wizard because there are so many Intelligence checks in the game - it really opens a lot of doors and allows you to win a lot of proficiency stuff - which leads to a lot of additional powerful stuff/abilities - without "save scumming".

Although so far it feels like Evocation is the only really powerful subclass of the wizard classes.

Then again, the entire game needs work, bugfixes and balancing so we will have to wait to see what Larian comes up with over the next 6 months to a year.

There may be many intelligence checks, but I think if there is a single check you want to be good at it is persuasion and Sorcerer's are much better at that one.

Necromancers are also decently good (for a wizard).

Actually no, concentration holds very well.

No there actually arent. Theres maybe at most 10% of the intelligence checks as there are CHA ones, and none of them are ever important.

Literally the main reason no one wants to play a Wizard is because yes INT is a useless stat.

I don't think INT vs CHA is the main reason that wizard is bad - it is mostly that metamagic and sorcerers got buffed so much and wizards didn't and suffer from benefit as much from their flexibility as they would in PnP.

Admittedly, Sorcerers have been plaguing the series since the start. In the original games they were a 3E feature shoe-horned into a 2E D&D game. They did not even have a main stat. And as with BG 3 and their homebrew, the HLA homebrew of ToB also buffed Sorcerers since their main drawback ended up not being applicable to level 10 spells.

So at least in this regard it's a worthy successors

I wasn't talking about charisma checks and Charisma and Intelligence checks I have not seen as interchangeable generally. I have a "face" person that deals with Charisma checks and a Wizard for the intelligence stuff - which there is a lot of. The only class that really prioritizes intelligence in a sea of hot, strong, and dumb companions...

There are also spells you just can't get as a sorcerer such as Curriculum of Strategy: Artistry of War and Dethrone, not to mention the flexibility of the spell list in general so grabbing all those ritual spells is a real boon to the party and costs you nothing.

I get that sorcerers do more damage, they are very bursty - but I don't think it's all that important if you know what you are doing as a wizard.

And really people have different playstyles - I very much enjoy the Wizard playstyle, with its focus on understanding and being kind of a spell nerd. You enjoy the burstiness of the Sorcerer and the forceful personality that lets you get away with all kinds of Charisma checks.

I still think you should take a moment and try to understand why 5e is the way it is and how the systems work. It's what I did. I didn't want to come off as that curmudgeonly old man shouting at the youngsters about how the "old system was better". Such a cliche.

I stand corrected. Sorcerers are actually broken.

Taking 1 level of wizard lets you learn all spells from all spell lists and cast them as sorcerer spells including with metamagic. I learned haste from a scroll on my 2 wizard/10 sorc - then cast it using a level 3 sorcery spell slot and twinned it.

That's just broken. Apparently the multiclass system is full of problems like this, where you keep abilities even after you multiclass. Like the Warlock ability Necrotic touch which you can keep for free even after you Respec to another class entirely..

So this is just an implementation problem and likely just an unfinished multiclass system.

I'd bet on it being intended. It's the exact sort of crazy combo thing Larian loves. Doesn't mean it won't be rolled back at some point if enough people complain, but I doubt it is just an oversight. Just speculation of course.

But yes, that is why I was saying that 2 wizard/10 sorc is likely the best all around caster.

I wouldn't call an amazing dip class 100% trash.

But yeah.

*

I was thinking it might be nice if the wizard, at higher levels, could actually enchant items, making pieces of gear better.