Originally Posted by Milkfred
Originally Posted by beargor
Also here is the cutscene where the emperor reveals he was mind controlling Stellmane. He becomes extremely hostile at the end but it does not carry over into any dialogue. I checked the ending and Ansur and literally nothing changes.

Video Link

Thanks for this, I've been curious about it. That's also really odd if you're trying to consider it from the perspective of The Emperor and his goals. It's like he's openly acknowledging that there's a trust issue, asks you if you want to look into his thoughts -- and then actively shows you something that will only make you trust him less, and goes on a megalomaniacal rant to boot. What's also odd about is that this secret disdain of the protagonist and his consideration of them as basically an extension of his will never comes up at any other time.

Very nice thread. I think you are right about this:
[spoiler]
Could there have been a version of the climax where you faced down visions of Vlaakith, Cazador and Mystra and your own Daisy? Suddenly, the tagline 'Alone, you may resist. But together, you can overcome' takes on a little more relevance than it does now.

What I don't know and can't know is whether I would distrust The Guardian / Emperor as much as a I do if I hadn't played EA and thus see the Guardian as Daisy. Obviously that experience influences my enjoyment of this game.

I agree with you that Daisy was a more interesting character than the Guardian but I still find plenty of reasons to distrust the Guardian

At the same time I don't find the Guardian to be any more trustworthy than Daisy. The game still has "search for a cure" driving chapter 1 but each time I come near a tadpole the suspicious dream figure tells me to tadpole that tadpole. (brilliant use of the meme btw)

[spoiler]Wait, my dear knight in shining armor, you know I want to find a cure but your advice is "deepen your infection"? That's kinda sus. I meet Nettie - she can't cure me but the guardian tells me to grab the tadpole to increase the infection. I find Gut, she can't cure me so we battle and, again, the Guardian's advice is "make the infection even worse". Worse yet she tells me that Gut's tadpole is especially powerful. So the advice of my Guardian is - absorb the thing that made the goblin into a thrall. Oh sure, I'm going to do that right away - nice try elder brain!

As you refuse to absorb the tadpoles the relationship with the Guardian gets increasingly aggressive. I guess others refuse to stab her in the astral plane, but it was an easy choice for my chaotic good Tav. I don't care about pleasing the evil lich queen, I do want to force the great and mighty Oz to reveal themselves as a projection.

Wyll suspects that there is something off about the store of the Stellmane stroke and is disturbed by the revelations the the Knights of the Shield were controlling a duke. You find something in a letter that raises the same suspicions. When you go to the Emperor's stronghold you automatically put on the dog collar when you click on it - if you don't notice that right away the scene where the Emperor drops the act shows Tav wearing a rusty dog collar. So if you didn't avoid the Gith the typical adventure would go: find basement - difficult fight - loot the room- long rest - annoy the Emperor - the Emperor declares themselves your dom.

But, as you say, the elements that make you distrust the Guardian- mostly on Wyll's and Minsc's story lines - are probably remnants of the previous drafts.

I hope those elements get restored and the game I played: never use a tadpole power and let's find a way to kill this thing that has been manipulating us - will be better supported in an upcoming patch.

[spoiler]As it stands the Emperor's decision to let Tav to return to the astral plane after saying they would never allow it doesn't make any sense. If the Emperor had any sense it would take us into the astral plane, dominate us long enough to take the hammer away and then begin a discussion. Otherwise it's a strangely disconcerting "I see you brought the instrument of my destruction with you - I'll meet you right next to the place you can use it"

While I do mostly agree with you that the original plot would have better, I don't agree that the problems originates in Larian's lack of confidence in the original artistic vision. Clearly, some of the changes are for the better. The problems start with Larian's dislike of the 5e ruleset and its deeply entrenched belief that 5e was something that needed to be worked around instead of something to be worked with.

Larian created these god level illithid powers and wanted people to use them because 5e combat, in Larian's view, isn't much fun without these powers.

Instead of looking at the existing DnD combat rules and thinking "how do we work with this to make these more interesting" Larian decided to make an alternative set, got annoyed that people weren't using that, and changed the plot to push people into using it the powers.

Not I that I dislike power fantasy!

[spoiler]I would much preferred something like we had in BG2 with the rings of wizardry, super regeneration ring etc.

What if tadpole-avoiding wizards were to get a ring that doubles the amount spells you can cast in one day, fighters a sword that gives free haste during battle, clerics a mace that allows you to use your "call on your deity powers" more than once . . .

WotR did this well. Paladins and oracles (clerics) who become angels get superpowered oracle spells. Wizards who become Azatas enhance their wizard spells . . .

So, long story short, I think the problems start not in Larian having too little trust in its original vision but instead it's stubborn refusal to work with and see the potential of the DnD ruleset.

Last edited by The Red Queen; 23/08/23 02:23 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags (were some already, but also spoilery info not in tags)