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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I actually dug through all the ending datamines, its clear that the Avernus ending was intended to be the "good choice" for her, and all the Origins have a cut line (spoken by Withers) after the Return to Avernus choice that's positive about fighting through the hells, and looking for a cure. Interesting. Anything on Halsin? I am very disappointed with the romance ending between Tav and Halsin. I can't seem to access the file, do we need to be granted access in order to see it?
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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I actually dug through all the ending datamines, its clear that the Avernus ending was intended to be the "good choice" for her, and all the Origins have a cut line (spoken by Withers) after the Return to Avernus choice that's positive about fighting through the hells, and looking for a cure. Interesting. Anything on Halsin? I am very disappointed with the romance ending between Tav and Halsin. I can't seem to access the file, do we need to be granted access in order to see it? It's not just the epilogue, there's also cut content which, for example, implies there might have been a cure for Astarion. Interestingly, it points back to . I'm not sure if whatever's in the epilogue will reveal all. People do say a lot has been cut overall, though...
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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I, too, am disappointed by the endings for Karlach. As someone who also has heart problems, I was happy to see that representation in a video game for that first time I've seen. Only to find out that you can't save her and she still dies despite all the work you put in as one of your companions. It just drives the point home that most people like me don't get their happy endings, even in a video game. Even when we can save the world and heal wounds with magic and even resurrect the dead like it's nothing.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 22/08/23 10:12 AM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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Just made an account to add my voice to this. Karlach is such a fantastic character and her endings being so constrained is heartbreaking, especially when side by side with how much hope there is for all the other companions. I would love to have another ending available to her. She deserves it.
If another ending isn't in the cards for Karlach, I'd really like to see better pacing and removal of threads in Act 3 that suggest she can be saved. I spent ages crawling up and down the Steel Watch Foundry because there was a dialogue thread that suggested something could be found there. At the very least, that needs to go. Unfinished narrative threads in some video games are... well, never pleasant, but at least not so glaringly obvious as they are in a game like this one, where most others are concluded.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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I've read through these, but, if I'm not mistaken, these seem to be the same endings we have available now: she either dies, she goes to Avernus, or she turns into a mind flayer. The main additions I see is that Withers leads the party into an epilogue during which their fates and choices are discussed, but I'm not seeing anything different about the actual ending choices... Maybe I'm not finding the new stuff?
Justice for Karlach
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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I have no problem with tragic endings and Karlach not getting a happy end.
If that is what Larian intended they should stick with it.
My problem with Karlach is the cut quests and that when considering D&D lore her problem is rather easy to solve compared to Gale and others.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Honestly, this is my problem as well, and I gather that most people agree, it's not about the tragedy, it's about there... well, not being any, really. It's just... sadistic as it is at the moment. The dead-end solutions just serve to add insult to injury, in a way, and as many have stated before, a Deus Ex Machina's literally just another Tuesday in D&D. We have gods, powerful magic, THE Scribe of The Dead is literally crashing at my camp, respecs my character 10 times an hour, and refuses to elaborate , there is no reason whatsoever, neither in the lore nor in the game, as to why Karlach deserves such a fate. Had she brought it upon herself through hubris, self-sacrifice, player (in)action, all fine and dandy! Hit me in the feels, make me cry like never before and I'll hate you (or myself!) for it, but I'll love the story! I'm even OK with the thought of my character as her partner joining her in Avernus, there's a strong tinge of bittersweet and hopeless romanticism there, it's artistically pleasing. But the way it's currently presented is like... what? And why does Wyll supersede her actual partner, regardless of choice? At best he should offer to be a third wheel in this case. I even love the idea of the entire party deciding to Hell-dive, would end the whole thing with the same aroma of adventure with which it started.
Last edited by Arkaelus; 19/08/23 02:42 PM.
Justice for Karlach
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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I have no problem with tragic endings and Karlach not getting a happy end.
If that is what Larian intended they should stick with it.
My problem with Karlach is the cut quests and that when considering D&D lore her problem is rather easy to solve compared to Gale and others. The problem with her endings is they make no sense given the rules that Larian has set for themselves. Im not going to list off all of the potential fixes to her problem, they've been listed plenty of times. But the fact of the matter is that by the end of the game despite everything you should be able to do to fix her, the game doesn't let you. I'd even argue that the big problem with Karlach's endings isnt even the logical inconsistencies, but the fact that this isnt the right genre of game to try to make a doomed character work. This is is a CRPG, a genre of game where I expect my decisions to drive the plot forward in unique ways. But with Karlach that just isnt there. You have no meaningful agency over her ending, only deciding which bad ending she gets. If you bring her along once, you've seen 90% of her content regardless of which minor deviations you choose by the end of the game. Compare this to someone like Shadowheart or Lae'Zel where you can see the impacts of your decisions from start to finish and it becomes very obvious Karlach got the least amount of love.
Last edited by Magmablargg; 19/08/23 03:58 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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I've read through these, but, if I'm not mistaken, these seem to be the same endings we have available now: she either dies, she goes to Avernus, or she turns into a mind flayer. The main additions I see is that Withers leads the party into an epilogue during which their fates and choices are discussed, but I'm not seeing anything different about the actual ending choices... Maybe I'm not finding the new stuff? The issue is that people tend to automatically assume Zariel will have us for breakfast if going with Karlach, while that was not Larian's intention. In one of Astartion's endings, she's apparently deeply afraid of him? What?? Okay. I didn't say it made sense
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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Hello, new user here who made this account so I could share my piece. Let me start by saying that I really love this game. It's great mechanically, it's great graphically and it's extremely great narratively. Worthy of all the praise it gets. But (there's always one, no?), after learning what ultimately becomes of Karlach, I don't think I'll be able to finish this game. Look, I get it that many of the great narratives are based on, or at least have some, tragedy, but this is a bit too much for me. It almost feels like they're "ticking a box" where one character has to have a bitter or bad end, no matter what the player does. It feels frustrating. I acknowledge it's my own shortcoming for getting invested in these characters.
I myself have some big heart issues irl. I'm on "borrowed time", so to speak, so having a video game character with relatable issue really hit home. When Karlach first told the PC about her problem and when some of the camp members even commented about "we'll get it fixed, surely", it felt good. All the infernal iron, Dammon and whatever magic is there in Faerun, it felt good. Perhaps I could get a bit of that hope and channel it into real life?
But apparently it's not the case. It just feels funny, especially when one of the party members gets stabililized by a bearded deus ex machina, there's a literal undead time god who can change your stats at will (it's a game mechanic, I get it), there's all sorts of spells for whatever one can think of, and there's even an actual profession related to this problem (Infernal Mechanic). And nothing can be done?
Anyway, while I criticize, I'll respect their decisions. It's their story, their characters, their artistic vision (or integrity, as a certain company has said in the past), their choice. But it's also my choice to enjoy the ride as long as I can, but step out before it reaches its conclusion. I cannot finish this game if this is the end. While it may sound stupid to some, it's my choice. In the end, life is nothing but a series of choices.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 22/08/23 10:14 AM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Thank you! I mean, I didn't even want to get started with Zariel and how even a half-decent lvl 12 party would actually have a chance... especially a party which includes a bona fide master Daemon hunter, a powerful Cleric of Light, one of the most powerful Wizards on the Sword Coast, and whatever insanely powerful class custom PCs have - I know my Bardladin can Smite Daemons like they're confetti... We took down the Avatar of Myrkul, and the godling was there solely to speed things up, nothing more... As far as her being scared of Astarion... that makes so little sense with how much information is included at the moment in the game, I'm both dumbstruck and curious to see how that'll tie into everything else.
Last edited by Arkaelus; 19/08/23 04:51 PM.
Justice for Karlach
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Once again I'm proud and appreciative of the continued support here. Given the recent news of cut content and datamines, it looks like the Avernus ending is a lot more positive than it was displayed as (abruptly) in the game. Moreover, it seems a Definitive Edition is quite likely in the future, with the areas and such that were taken off the table toward the end of production, we'll have to wait and see. This community has been amazing with their maintained positivity and outlook, please remain polite and respectful toward Larian going into the future! #JusticeForKarlach
Last edited by The Red Queen; 22/08/23 10:14 AM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2023
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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It is a bit sad, however, to see there are people in this very thread that have heart issues irl (me included) and who have related to the character, yet it's the heart that cannot be fixed. In a game where literally anything is possible, ranging from resurrections to interplanar beings, it's the heart that could not be fixed. Edit. Realized this might need spoiler tags
Last edited by Kneecap; 20/08/23 03:27 PM.
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2023
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It is a bit sad, however, to see there are people in this very thread that have heart issues irl (me included) and who have related to the character, yet it's the heart that cannot be fixed. In a game where literally anything is possible, ranging from resurrections to interplanar beings, it's the heart that could not be fixed. Edit. Realized this might need spoiler tags Yeah, one of the biggest issues raised against the "there's not always a good ending, like real life" argument (which is a pretty foolish take as is) is that we're playing a video game, in a fantasy world where there are cures for this kind of thing, where those ailed and outcast can live free and healthy with might and magic. Its pretty hurtful to see people try to compare this narrative issue to real life, and insulting to people such as yourself who suffer from difficult, or even incurable conditions.
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Ended up diving through /all of it/ at least there seems to have been SOME positivity in the Avernus ending. Letting Karlach die, and her becoming a mindflayer are just NEGATIVE on NEGATIVE. I didn't expect to be proven so right. Fuel to keep us going and get justice for Karlach!
Last edited by G4RIIK; 23/08/23 12:37 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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I 100% agree, I don’t generally spoil myself, but I planned on romancing Karlach from the beginning when I get my PS5 version in a couple weeks. Seeing all of this and how there’s no way to truly have a good ending with her (Returning to Avernus in any way is not a good ending imo) has seriously put a damper on my desire to go through with the whole thing, so I do hope that Larian can implement, and soon, an update that adds some additional options, of which many great ones have already been mentioned in this thread.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 22/08/23 10:15 AM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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Took longer than expected but finally can contribute. Glad I discovered this forum, thought i was alone in my thinking about how Karlach gets shafted so hard after such great writing for her character. Also Separate Ways by Journey started playing on my spotify while reading this forum, did not help at all.
Last edited by Toastlegend; 22/08/23 11:37 AM.
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