Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General It's not lvls 13 to 20

There's been talk about how levels 13 to 20 are too powerful for a game to really explore. I find that hard to believe.

Such has been done in previous games, for one.

But perhaps more importantly, we are *way* more powerful at level 12 than characters would typically be in the higher levels. The tadpole powers and the equipment... it's all off the charts. Blackhole, stage fright, displacer beast, favourable beginnings, I mean, the list goes on and on. My character is nigh unstoppable after consuming all the tadpoles.

All the equipment, a near endless supply of potions.

Seems like it would have been less powerful to just moderate the loot a bit and allow more levels as opposed to pumping up the power at lower levels.

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As for Wish, that's a spell that can easily be implemented. People understand the natural limitations of games. Just give it a handful of cool options and not anything under the sun, easy, done.

Funnily enough, levels 13-20 in 5e are weaker than they ever were in previous editions, you dont even get a second level 6 spell slot until level 18, and only ever have a single level 9 and I think level 8 slot too.

The wish argument annoys me. Nobody speaks about Divine Intervention, why? Because it's in the game and done well. Wish could have been the same. It doesn't need to be all encompassing, just like DI didn't need to be, just needed to have a great selection of options to choose from.

I have no idea how feasible it would be, but a level 12 cap seems fine to me. I hit it not long after reaching the city because I wrapped up as much as possible before moving on all the time. However progression didn’t really stop because of all the high end gear I bought and looted in act 3.

If we’d be able to go higher, I might have just given everyone a couple of levels of fighter for proficiencies and action surge instead of keeping them all pure classes.

If there were, six more acts ?

Everybody seems to forget that BG1 only had Level 8-10 depending on class for that story and then Bioware got to build on that to get the rest of the levels for bg2. Oh well...

NWN2 went from one to twenty. It didn't have nine acts or whatever arbitrary number.

Then it had an expansion that went up to level thirty.

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As far as how far BG3 goes, whatever. I'm just pointing out that the common excuse for not going to twenty is that twenty is "too powerful." In my opinion, those are just words. It's simply not true.

Again, I don't care what the actual cap is. I suppose I'm just deeply tired of rhetoric and mistruths where everyone gets on board nodding their heads like it's some kind of undeniable sage wisdom.

Bah humbug.

A point I just made in a different thread was - if a level 12 party can deal with a bus load of gods then what would be a challenge for a level 12+ party?

YEah, I think they mean they can´t make it more epic without being all too ridiculous. There ´is supposed´ to be a scale, where your level determines your assumed power and standing in the world. That is there now, too, but these are without a doubt a little upscaled.

Now, the scale is typically set to that the ´sweet spot´ is in the levels 5/10 range, all the classes have exceptional potential, campaigns usually don+t run that long, anyway. In AD&D, it was assumed that your character would retire after that, anyway. So the epic endgame material for most games is indeed just past that range. Everything beyond that is for the Epic Characters, the best in the land and so forth. Strahd is level 12, Drizzt and Sarevok are level 15, Elminster is level 20 and so forth.

In BGEE / IWD you're facing off with Belhifet at level 12. In BG2 you're facing Beholders, Dragons and Elder Brains - much like in BG3. So in a sense, it's all kind of fair.

But. You encounter your friends with epic backstories that would put them in the realy high ranges already. Wyll is already a renowned hero with stories unbecoming of a level 2 Warlock. He couldn't tank an Orc, but he's hunting devils. There you have it.

No way Gale could be so useless as he is when you encounter him with *that* backstory. And it's not as if he is stripped of his power or anything, he's still a wizard. I honestly expected him to be a glamoured up Elminster. But, he;s not. Close enough, though. But, for some reason he's level one. What, you forgot how to cast Melf's Acid Arrow but not all of the exposition you're constantly vomiting up?

Whatshername the tiefling is a ten-year-veteran and prime asset in the Blood War? And she's level four? Halsin is a 350 eyar old Archdruid. At level five. Really? Minsc and Jaheira are epic heroes of legend, of course.

And then there's the thing with all the gods getting involved. Jergall hangs about in your camp for some Divine INtervention here and there - From level 2 onward. And he's by no means the only one you converse with.

Either the gods were weaker than they should be or the players skills / spells are stronger.

I accidently summoned a Water Elemental with a level 6 slot on Jaheira instead of a level 5 slot, and that thing is stronger than most of the mobs in the games.

Divine Intervention is done horribly in by 3.

High levels can be fine very well. And, the tadpole powers are unnecessarily fluff created by people who admitted thry hate dnd because 'there's not enough to do'. Lol

That Saud, I would love to see actusl implantation of level 13+ in thus system. Too bad laruan is do anti bg/dnd they seem set against going another. A bg4 wuth level 13 into epic levels with lessons learned could be interesting. But, like others mentioned, where do things go from here. I have ideas, but larian admits they fear not having the imagination to tackle high level stuff despite literally bringing powerful stuff in already...

I'm not particularly happy to say that at this point it seems to be a Larian's long standing tradition to struggle to solve SELF-INFLICTED design issues.

- Mess up controls and UI, then forcefully change mechanics for the worst to not make the UI "too cumbersome".
- over-tune crowd controls, invent a convoluted and unengaging armor system in DOS 2 to work around the problem (ineffectively).
- Break the action economy and class balances in 5th edition (which were always precarious to begin with) then come up with convoluted ways to solve the issues.
- Implement core mechanics like metamagic or haste WRONGLY, then realize in awe that they are overpowered.
- make iconic spells less effective that they are supposed to be, wonder why people don't use them as much as in tabletop.
- Introduce "more things per turn to do" for characters from the early levels, marvel at the realization that some new players find the system overwhelming rather than feeling like they are being introduced gradually enough.
- Include over-tuned gear and special tadpole powers, then complain that the balance breaks down at higher levels.

And so on.

What 5th edition-based games have done level 13-20?

My understanding is that the vast majority of campaigns never get to these levels.

WotR makes itself weird by being specifically about mythic levels and now everyone wants RPGs to level to the moon?

AD&D =/= 3 =/= 3.5 =/= 5 =/= Pathfinder

Comparing it is counter-productive.

I can level up to 150 in Fallout 4. Why can't I level up to 150 in Pillars of Eternity or Baldur's Gate 2? They claimed to be RPG games aren't they?

To me personally, and I think most reasonable people would agree:

Leveling up purpose should be only about to build your character. When your character is -built- there is no purpose to move all the way up.

Yes, it is possible to level up beyond level 12, but does the story/encounter design/level design supports the new mechanics offered by higher level spells?

It's a choice that have been made by Larian, the answer is no.

5e still goes up to level 20, BG3 does not.

Theres literally zero character building with just 12 levels, even with 20 theres hardly much you can do.

Most feats and such are now automatic, the whole reason why people dont like BG3 and 5e level caps is because theres far less possibility for character building.

I don't mean to pick on this response, but it's the exact kind of thing that strikes me as so disingenuous.

Because the editions are different, suddenly things are "too powerful" at higher levels? I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. I don't have another way to put it.

A 20th level character is not suddenly more powerful in 5e than in 3.5. Somewhere deep inside we all have to know that. Just saying the editions aren't the same doesn't change that.

Again, let the level cap be whatever it is. I don't care. I'm just sick of all this falsity. I don't want to call it lies, because I'm sure some folks actually believe it, and it's not fair to call them liars for buying into common tripe.

Just admit it's not the edition or the levels. It's the scope of this particular game. Whatever. Let's just stop going around saying level 20 is too powerful for a video game to handle. It sounds so ridiculous to anyone with any memory outside of the current moment.

If you read my response carefully I point out that each edition works differently.

I say they're different. Incomparable. Having different purpose that warrant different design.

To compare them is counter-productive.

If this is not obvious enough: Level 12+ is simply not fit with the narrative/level/encounter they're trying to design with this adventure.

And frankly I agree.

People expect a video game can give them everything they ever wanted, that is not economical. A choice has been made and you can mourn here, or wait for somebody to mod level 69 cap to the game which allow your foot pinky finger to kill Raphael with 1 click, but it'll not gonna happen in the base game because the level range designed to fit the encounter. (in case you're wanting higher level or something)

(notice that I didn't mention anything about level 69 too strong or something).

Second point I want made is that ridiculous comparison to other game. What other game? Other DnD game with different rules? Other game has THAC0 why this one has modifier? Pathfinder has BAB why is this one just use proficiency bonus?

Pathfinder WOTR has 69 AC enemy with 420 BAB, that can slap your character to shadow realm unless you manage to attack it with touch attack. This game has that system why isn't it in Baldurian Gata Troika??

So why does this game has level 12 caps? - Simply because that is the gameplaylimitation the game they made is balanced around. You probably know this, no need to ask other for confirmation.

Does 5e and Wizards of the coast not permit levels beyond 12 ?
The character building variation and feats is indeed very very narrow.

You mean the narrative of Right, not high level at all...