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I don't really mind that he felt betrayed and abandoned us...I'd even have understood if he attacked us...but to align himself with the absolute so quickly? That made no sense to me. No matter how much you may hate the Githyanki the absolute is a threat to all life across all planes of existence and they literally destroy souls. Orpheus can be talked around but not the emperor? Generally when a supposed "ally" pulls a move like that it's because he was always a traitor, either a spy aligned with the enemy or after something else altogether...but that doesn't seem to be the case because if you go along with him he really does destroy the absolute and there's no raphael-like twist to him so why is he aligning with the Absolute? That's really the only part of the game's script that bothers me...it's like they intended to do something else with the character of the emperor but somewhere in the rewrite they forgot to account for him siding with the absolute. It makes even less sense if you manage to learn his actual true identity before he became the emperor(no it's not the fake story he gives as having been an adventurer, no, he has an actual name). I think the idea is that the moment he steps out of the prism and we free Orpheus, he's no longer protected from the Elder Brain and thus gets controlled whether he wants to or not... which should really make him consider taking his options with Orpheus. It's not like he can't still piss off and join the brain after he sees the Gith's reaction to being freed. It's not very rational.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 23/08/23 02:11 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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Also here is the cutscene where the emperor reveals he was mind controlling Stellmane. He becomes extremely hostile at the end but it does not carry over into any dialogue. I checked the ending and Ansur and literally nothing changes. Video LinkThanks for this, I've been curious about it. That's also really odd if you're trying to consider it from the perspective of The Emperor and his goals. It's like he's openly acknowledging that there's a trust issue, asks you if you want to look into his thoughts -- and then actively shows you something that will only make you trust him less, and goes on a megalomaniacal rant to boot. What's also odd about is that this secret disdain of the protagonist and his consideration of them as basically an extension of his will never comes up at any other time. Actually, on reflection, this makes plenty of sense. Think of it this way. The Emperor has done everything to help you constantly and consistently, he's been there for you, he's only given you good advice, he's opposed to the Absolute, etc. The only thing he's withheld from you is that he's a Mind Flayer (sensible) and that he maybe should've appeared as Balduran instead of the dream waifu (relic of Daisy, not his fault.) And for all of his assistance, the player keeps acting like a child -- wah wah wah, I still don't trust you despite there being no rational reason to do so. So, the Emperor goes, 'Fine. Look into my mind, and see what I could do to you if I wanted to hurt you. So, shut the fuck up and stop acting like an idiot.' Yes, it does change his dynamic a little, yes, it can make you wary of him. But I don't see how that's much different from a loyal hound bearing its teeth and growling if you keep yanking its tail.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 23/08/23 02:11 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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Actually, on reflection, this makes plenty of sense. Think of it this way. The Emperor has done everything to help you constantly and consistently, he's been there for you, he's only given you good advice, he's opposed to the Absolute, etc. The only thing he's withheld from you is that he's a Mind Flayer (sensible) and that he maybe should've appeared as Balduran instead of the dream waifu (relic of Daisy, not his fault.) Yep, this is exactly why I was glad that when I customized the guardian I went for a human male with a bit of a pirate/swashbuckling look (I simply remade my Bard's Dream Lover from EA who I envisioned as her former partner in crime and unrequited crush) because I can easily headcanon that to be his real appearance as Balduran. That peels off one thin layer of deceit and makes my bard's playthrough feel more unique and valid. I like the idea that Mr.Emperor would try to deceive my paladin and my barbarian but when it came to the bard he'd be like "I am not even going to bother posing as someone else in front of this one, shes a much better liar than I am" lmao
Last edited by The Red Queen; 23/08/23 02:12 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
- Firm believer in Mindflayer supremacy -
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journeyman
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journeyman
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I largely disagree, I think you should evaluate the emperor as if you had never played EA. Daisy was obviously evil, if you had not played ea though would you immediately be suspicious of the guardian? Probably not, I do agree that it makes no sense not to present as balduran and furthering makes no sense not to appear to all characters as the same thing. After all 6 people having a dream about different people telling them the same thing seems a bit like manipulation, but if you all see the same dream figure not so much.
So agree that the presentation of the guardian is bad, but the guardian is a better choice than daisy on the overall.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 23/08/23 02:12 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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Volunteer Moderator
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Joined: Feb 2022
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Folks, please add spoiler tags around discussion of plot elements. I know it's a pain, and it does make discussions like this harder to read, but it's the only fair way to behave when lots of people haven't finished the game and it hasn't even been released on most platforms yet.
I confess I am now getting very, VERY bored of going through posts and editing in spoiler tags. My new policy is when a post looks like it has spoiler information in it, I'm just going to put the whole thing in tags and the person posting it can sort it out and take the non-spoilery bits out if they want. Reading in detail and only tagging actual spoilers means (a) spoiling myself still further when it's discussion of stuff I haven't played and (b) spending longer on this than strictly necessary to protect other forum members.
If you put some of your post in spoiler tags then thank you for that, but it also means I can't easily spoiler tag the whole thing, so if you do that please make sure every bit of plot discussion you have is in tags.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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veteran
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veteran
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Actually, on reflection, this makes plenty of sense. Think of it this way. The Emperor has done everything to help you constantly and consistently, he's been there for you, he's only given you good advice, he's opposed to the Absolute, etc. The only thing he's withheld from you is that he's a Mind Flayer (sensible) and that he maybe should've appeared as Balduran instead of the dream waifu (relic of Daisy, not his fault.)
And for all of his assistance, the player keeps acting like a child -- wah wah wah, I still don't trust you despite there being no rational reason to do so.
So, the Emperor goes, 'Fine. Look into my mind, and see what I could do to you if I wanted to hurt you. So, shut the fuck up and stop acting like an idiot.' Yes, it does change his dynamic a little, yes, it can make you wary of him. But I don't see how that's much different from a loyal hound bearing its teeth and growling if you keep yanking its tail.
Nah. The advice might seem good from the Emperor's evil POV but that doesn't make it good advice - good in both sense their advice is neither morally good nor is it sound advice. The Emperor's advice is based in the notion that ceremorphosis isn't a sickness, it's evolution. We learn this from the story where he kills the good-aligned guardian of Baldur's Gate.
All of their advice boils down to increase your infection so you are powerful enough to take down the brain that could dominate me once again. They've never been there for us, they are looking out for themselves.
Transformation destroys your soul, fills you desires to dominate others and forces you to subsist on the brains of intelligent creatures. It is a sickness, a turn to evil and not "evolution"
So the Emperor is like the nurses in chapter two who believe that their efforts are helping their patients when, in reality, they are torturing them to death. Sure the merchant nurse actually believes she's doing the right thing . . . The emperor's own sickness prevents from the from seeing us as sick
Last edited by KillerRabbit; 23/08/23 04:04 PM.
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stranger
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Admittedly, I haven't done an Orpheus run yet but I still read this thread here and I had some thoughts on it. Please let me know if I'm wrong about how things go in a reply if you wish
I thought about this quite a bit and in the end I ended up deciding that The Emperor makes sense as a character, but their reasoning is not made explicitly clear. We learn that Vlaakith doesn't have the ability to stop the Illithids or the Grand Design, but Orpheus does and being Githyanki he understandably hates the Illithids and after the inevitable Githyanki civil war upon freeing Orpheus, their attention would inevitably be focused on the Illithids. We also learn that The Emperor escaped the grasp of an Elder Brain, not once but twice and conceivably they could do that again. It may take forever, but by "siding" with The Absolute when Orpheus is freed it gives them a chance, no matter how small, that they could do it a 3rd time but apparently don't think it's possible that Orpheus could be understandable of the party's and The Emperor's situation. Perhaps moreso The Emperor specifically as they want to be Illithid, seeing it as evolution.
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apprentice
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Do people really see the enthralling of Duke Belynne Stelmane as an act of irredeemable evil when the Knights of the Shield is suppose to be a front for a devil worshipping cult based on betrayals and political corruption, makes more sense why the three got her killed
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stranger
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Here's how you turn Daisy into a benevolent figure while keeping her character 99% in tact and subverting players' initial suspicion of her: Daisy doesn't know she's a tadpole
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veteran
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veteran
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To my mind trying to turn either figure into a benevolent one is a mistake. Both a malevolent forces and I don't think was a problem that people didn't trust Daisy. In fact I think it's weird that some trust the Guardian.
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apprentice
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apprentice
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To my mind trying to turn either figure into a benevolent one is a mistake. Both a malevolent forces and I don't think was a problem that people didn't trust Daisy. In fact I think it's weird that some trust the Guardian. Arguably saving the player character's life has a lot to do with that probably
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I don't think Daisy was the tadpole. One, that's too simple and obvious. Two, one of the first things Daisy asks is "Where are you?" Which is odd because you'd assume the tadpole, being in your brain, would know where you are.
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journeyman
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journeyman
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[quote]
And then of course, if you side with Orpheus, he just decides to side with the elder brain for ~reasons~, which will lead him to becoming a thrall again.
[...]
-Orpheus is somehow able to turn himself into a mind flayer in the ending even though he is not infected (Larian REALLY wanted someone to turn. This is SO forced. It's not even clear why they need to be a mind flayer. Orpheus is said to be an insanely powerful psionicist, capable of blocking out elder brain communication, but for some reason needs to turn into an illithid?)
[...]
-Orpheus says we should have let his honor guard kill us and then they would have freed him and he would have dealt with the elder brain. He has been trapped in the prism with his honor guard, long before the emperor showed up. Why would they be able to free him now? Also, why is the emperor able to free him without the orphic hammer? My understanding is that the emperor put up the 2 force shields (the one around the giant skull and the smaller one around him), but he has infernal binds from when he was betrayed by Vlaakith I. His honor guard has been stuck in the prism with him and hasn't been able to free him from the infernal binds.
[...]
These three plotholes really hurt the narrative coherence of the game's ending in a major way. The behavior of the Emperor is soooo f***ing weird, it makes no sense. What Orpheus says about his honor guard was obvioulsy written by someone who has NO clue about the the order of events and the circumstances of Orpheus's imprisonment. Most likely the result of a hasty rewrite: 1. Vlaakith I. imprisoned Orpheus and his honor guard after returning from Hell without Gith (I believe over 1.000 years before the events of BG3).
2. Somehow the Emperor ends up in the Astral Prism with Orpheus some time right before the events of BG3.
3. Only then the player arrives and battles the honor guard to protect the Emperor.
4. Later, just before the final battle, the player is sent to the Astral prism again where they can free Orpheus if they brought the Orphic Hammer.
So it makes no sense for Orpheus to claim that his honor guard could have freed him at any time. The person writing this line was probably confused and thought it was the current Lich-Queen-Vlaakith who imprisoned just Orpheus a short time ago and NOW his honor guard have come to free him (and for some reason they don't need the Orphic Hammer).
And then after Orpheus is free, how can he just decide to turn into a Mindflayer? It makes no sense. He does not have a tadpole as far as I know.
Last edited by SiriusVI; 24/08/23 11:24 AM.
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Speaking of Orpheus, isn't that a completely out-of-place name for a Githyanki? At least it seemed quite strange to me.
And yes, I agree - it is quite strange how he can just turn into a mind-flayer at will.
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addict
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Speaking of Orpheus, isn't that a completely out-of-place name for a Githyanki? At least it seemed quite strange to me.
And yes, I agree - it is quite strange how he can just turn into a mind-flayer at will.
It most likely a "deus ex machina". And yes, using the name of a legendary greek bard for a Githyanki seems ... odd to say the least.
Last edited by Kendaric; 24/08/23 12:29 PM.
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veteran
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I hadn't really given it mu h thought before but... yeah, why is he named that? Not just in universe but out of universe? Why did Larian pick that name for him? Its a name that carries heavy thematic implications that do not apply to him unless you really, really stretch.
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Honestly, I'd assumed he was a known, pre-existing character from Forgotten Realms. Now I'm curious, too!
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That was the first thing I checked when I read the name because it seemed so out of place, hehe. But he seems to be a pure Larian development, though it is sometimes hard to tell how much conflicting lore is out there. But at least I couldn't find any mention of him prior to BG 3.
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I liked to the name tbh. My guess is they named him Orpheus because you need to descend into hell to free him.
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I liked to the name tbh. My guess is they named him Orpheus because you need to descend into hell to free him. Well, you can always take up the deal that's offered by a certain handsome person... Also, if that's the connection... they should have made a female rather than a male and called her Eurydike 
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