For the second time in this thread, which I'd have not expected to get tempers up, please let's keep it friendly.
Remember that it's okay to disengage if you find yourself in a back and forth you're not enjoying, and consider sacrificing the last word for the moral high ground!
And it's of course okay to decide to block and not engage with other forum members, but in most cases it's best done silently.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Whether learning scrolls is based on your total spell slots instead of your wizard level in PnP is discussed in several places on the internet, for example here:
The original PHB is a bit vague, but it has been clarified since: which spells you can *know* is based on your class level, not your total level. Thus a Wizard 1/Sorcerer 19 could prepare Magic Missile from his wizard spellbook and upcast it using a level 9 spell slot, but he could not scribe and prepare a Wish (or even a Mirror Image) spell.
There's some technical discussion about the character technically being allowed to *scribe* the scroll, but not being allowed to prepare the spell. Which technically works out the same way.
This being said, it should be clear that a wizard 1/cleric 19 having access to all cleric and wizard spells can't be the intention.
Last edited by MarcAbaddon; 24/08/2312:25 PM. Reason: typo
So what's the benefit of one over the other? When I played any tabletop last, sorcs knew fewer spells but had more slots. This doesn't seem to be the case noe.
This being said, it should be clear that a wizard 1/cleric 19 having access to all cleric and wizard spells can't be the intention.
Well fortunately it doesn't work that way.
1 Cleric / 11 Sorc can only cast level 1 cleric spells.
The game is combining total spell levels for arcane or divine levels, in fact NWN1&2 already did this - 'Your arcane / divine spellcasting raises every level / every other level / every level beyond first'.
Seems to be working as intended. If you think it isn't send a support email.
Also https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Homebrew#:~:text=See%20the%20list%20of%20D%26D,campaign%20settings%20or%20variant%20rules.
Quote
Homebrew is fan terminology for game material made by players of a game, rather than by an official or third-party publisher. In a Dungeons & Dragons context, this often includes new spells, character classes, campaign settings or variant rules.
In DnD, there has never once been any such 'You must follow the official ruleset exactly'.
So technically I could homebrew 40 levels, the same multiclassing as 2e, the same number of spellslots (up to 5 of each level), and metamagics for every spellcasting class if I so desired, as could Larian if they wanted to.
This being said, it should be clear that a wizard 1/cleric 19 having access to all cleric and wizard spells can't be the intention.
Well fortunately it doesn't work that way.
1 Cleric / 11 Sorc can only cast level 1 cleric spells.
The game is combining total spell levels for arcane or divine levels, in fact NWN1&2 already did this - 'Your arcane / divine spellcasting raises every level / every other level / every level beyond first'.
Seems to be working as intended. If you think it isn't send a support email.
I was talking about how the 5E P&P rules work vs BG 3 rules work. For PnP it is correct that for spell slots you add up total caster classes - so a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 does have level 9 spell slots. He just can't prepare spells of that level, so they can only be used to upcast lower level. In BG 3 on the other hand, he can also learn and prepare them, which is an issue with the game.
This being said, it should be clear that a wizard 1/cleric 19 having access to all cleric and wizard spells can't be the intention.
Well fortunately it doesn't work that way.
1 Cleric / 11 Sorc can only cast level 1 cleric spells.
The game is combining total spell levels for arcane or divine levels, in fact NWN1&2 already did this - 'Your arcane / divine spellcasting raises every level / every other level / every level beyond first'.
Seems to be working as intended. If you think it isn't send a support email.
I was talking about how the 5E P&P rules work vs BG 3 rules work. For PnP it is correct that for spell slots you add up total caster classes - so a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 does have level 9 spell slots. He just can't prepare spells of that level, so they can only be used to upcast lower level. In BG 3 on the other hand, he can also learn and prepare them, which is an issue with the game.
I know how 3.5 worked.
Didn't realize thats what you meant, I've seen more posts here explaining this that spell slots in pnp 5e are based off total caster levels and not total class levels, but OP seems to not care about that, plus as I edited into my last comment, homebrewing of rules exists even if people are adamant that something is not an official ruleset feature.
In fact I've not yet seen anyone else so fiercely defend pnp rules to the point of 'everything and everyone else is 100% wrong, I am the only one that's right'.
If OP makes the claim calling something broken and against pnp rules, they also invite discussion to explain that actually no it isnt.
The DM can do whatever the DM wants, they can make up rules as they see fit, e.g. if they don't like players always using the same spells again and again, they can ban fireball. They can give wizard players a specific list of spells that they are limited to using., i.e. this guy's videos
The "DM" should also generally keep an eye on game balance - and cater for those who care about core rule implementations. Rules provide structure and allow for game balance (and common sense) - lookup the definition of a game, and the rules are a core part of that.
Many, many people have asked for a RAW 5e implementation option (like Solasta showed can work). Many (all?) other computer D&D games have a 'core' setting. Just because some people are used to DMs who don't actually care about rules, doesn't mean that those of us who do enjoy carefully structured and balanced mechanics should simply be dismissed.
EA provided ample opportunity for issues to be pointed out with Larian's' interpretation of 5E - most of that was ignored...even though the game was meant be the 'definitive 5e' experience or some such quote from the early EA days. *I* bought into the EA on that basis, so while I enjoyed the game, there are mechanical aspects that make me roll my eyes in disbelief since they are exactly what I would expect a 13 year old DM to allow as being 'cool'. All this has been discussed to death in many threads.
The "DM" should also generally keep an eye on game balance - and cater for those who care about core rule implementations. Rules provide structure and allow for game balance (and common sense) - lookup the definition of a game, and the rules are a core part of that.
Many, many people have asked for a RAW 5e implementation option (like Solasta showed can work). Many (all?) other computer D&D games have a 'core' setting. Just because some people are used to DMs who don't actually care about rules, doesn't mean that those of us who do enjoy carefully structured and balanced mechanics should simply be dismissed.
EA provided ample opportunity for issues to be pointed out with Larian's' interpretation of 5E - most of that was ignored...even though the game was meant be the 'definitive 5e' experience or some such quote from the early EA days. *I* bought into the EA on that basis, so while I enjoyed the game, there are mechanical aspects that make me roll my eyes in disbelief since they are exactly what I would expect a 13 year old DM to allow as being 'cool'. All this has been discussed to death in many threads.
So I tried it out and it is balanced. If you take 10 sorc levels and 2 of Wizard, while you get access to a level 6 spell slot you can't learn any level 6 spells on your sorc level ups, even if you took the Wizard classes at levels 2 & 3.
What you have to do therefore is still make INT your main stat for it to work, and that means losing all your speech skill bonuses.
Also I took evocation specialist and sculpt spells, but it didn't apply when I cast a fireball with sorc spell, only works on spells memorized under wizard
I didn't test if I could use metamagics with the wizard spells, my initial thought was you could, but based on sculpt spell not working for wizard spells, I don't think metamagics work for wizard spells, I'll test that now.
Actually I was incorrect, sculpt spells just didn't trigger while in camp, but it does work on sorc slots, and metamagics work on wizard slots.
But for a 2 wizard / 10 sorc to be able to use chain lightning & disintegrate, they have to make INT their primary stat not CHA, which tbf is still superior to a Wizard. Looks like I'll do that on Gale instead of on my MC.
And actually if I do it on Gale, I can't have Warcaster as companions need 2 ASIs to get 20 in casting stat so meh.
EA provided ample opportunity for issues to be pointed out with Larian's' interpretation of 5E - most of that was ignored...even though the game was meant be the 'definitive 5e' experience or some such quote from the early EA days. *I* bought into the EA on that basis, so while I enjoyed the game, there are mechanical aspects that make me roll my eyes in disbelief since they are exactly what I would expect a 13 year old DM to allow as being 'cool'. All this has been discussed to death in many threads.
Agreed, but the multiclass system was never introduced in EA - likely because it just wasn't finished yet as we are seeing now. It's really unfortunate because we went over EA with a fine-tooth comb and reported all the exploits - everything we reported was fixed in the full release. We could have caught this before it got included.
The real problem is that it's going to poison multiplayer games on the Larian Discord - which has already had issues with people bringing their own cheats and mods into games with unsuspecting players. (Yes you can bring in a mod that sets your and everyone else's XP to max without them having to get the Mod - another exploit btw). This has caused games to be abandoned in disgust.
Single player games should not be balanced around the fact that some of the things are broken in the optional multiplayer.
This isn't an mmo, if you want to play multiplayer, play it with people you already know and set whatever rules you want - no mods / no multiclassing or whatever else.
