Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Massive spoilers, rapheals deal has no incentive for the player (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

At the time of the deal I have an alliance with a potential enemy(the emperor) without whom I die.
So if I betray him as rapheal suggests I get the possibility of forming a different alliance with a potential enemy. I havenever spoken to Orpheus and we will all die unless he helps us.
So I am trading what I already have for the possibility of getting the same thing. Why would anyone take this deal?
It's not deal its a favor for rapheal.

Edit: this is fortunately very easy to fix
New deal= he give me a way to kill the emperor and keep leeching Orpheus power. That's tempting because I don't trust the emperor and even if I do I don't like being dependent on him.

Free Orpheus should be an option, but it should not be tied to rapheals deal.

At that stage I had reached an understanding with the protector. Raphael's deal was for me to undermine what was keeping me alive?

What was he thinking? I'd turn on the protector (dangerous) and then risk the wrath of the Comet prince (extremely risky)??

The status quo deal with the protector doesn't deal with Raphael at all.

For Raphael's deal to make sense he'd need to prove to us that Comet prince has the power to cure us and would be willing. Without that, it's a gambit.

help him rule the hells and possibly overthrow more realms

But then in Act 3 He comes to you while you are essentially holding ALL of the cards. You at this point know about Orpheus, You potentially know about Vlaakith, you know about the Emperor, you know about the Crown of Krasus. You know especially that while you are under the Emperor's protection you cannot succumb to the Tadpole, you know you have a clear goal and where you are need to be to accomplish said goal. Not only that, he gives you his Ace by telling you about the Orphic Hammer, and that he has it, in it house. Then he tries to make a "Deal" with you that only benefits him? Worst fucking Devil ever. As a DM this has bugged me so fucking much. If anything you should be able to make a deal with him LOOOOOONG before you learn about the Emperor, or how or why you are being protected. His Scheme makes zero sense, at no point does he have the upper hand. Thanks for telling me about the magical hammer jackass, I'm going right to your house and taking it now!
Or Hey, you know what would be great, if there was permanent consequences to using tadpoles and their powers that added up throughout the game. Raph could leverage that to make his deal with you. Maybe they erode your soul and cause permanent damage to you in some way, but Raph can replace that part of your soul with his deal.

Game even lampshades the fact he was dumb enough to tell you exactly where his hammer is in conversation with Laezel, not sure how to feel about that,
If you convinced Laezel to back her queen Raphael will lie that you need the hammer to kill Orpheus
even dumber the emperor doesn't hear you talking to your companions about taking the hammer after leaving the presence of Raphael,
even even dumber emperor will instantly catch your intent to betray him if you go to the house of hope regardless how the series of events transpired when not knowing the hammer even exists

Another inconsistency here is how the shop lady helps you access the House of Hope and then acts all 'haha, it was a trap' when she turns up.

But Raphael didn't get anything out of the trap - best case he kills you and his house is trashed, which doesn't bring him any closer to the crown. If she just told you it couldn't be done you might have been more desperate to accept the deal.

Like, this is how deals with devils work.

First deal "Ill do everything I can to remove your tadpole", when he knows he can't remove it but technically, he honours the deal. Second deal, i'll give you the hammer (which I have no use for and am 90% you cant use but if you can it'd get him the crown) and gives you a way to liberate Orpheus which if you've done L's storyline you really want to, but at a greater cost, ITS A DEAL WITH A DEVIL, why would you expect to get a fair shake out of it?
we wants the crown, and he wants you to give it,

As for telling you where it is, he's the ruler of a hell,he was tempting you by dangling it within reach, not expecting you to pull off the heist thats a classic bad guy thing

I disagree on the first deal.

Yeah, soul was a typo/standard item floating in brain since he is a devil. It's obviously the crown he wants, sorry.

You might not even have Laez in the party. Or you might not care what you think. Maybe she is also still on Vlaakith's side, too? If that is an option, I didn't try those dialogue options tbh.

Either way there are plenty of reasons not to be interested. What would be much better if we were to offer the same deal to Laez, if you don't take it. But even then he should have an alternate offer, for players who want to either stick with the Emperor or Gortash.

The problem with this theory, is 1, there is no first deal. Like he says, if you try to make a deal upfront in the first encounter he calls you desperate then runs off saying he wants to take advantage of you when you are scared and hopeless and need to come crawling to him.
2. It's not your standard "Devil Deal" sure he has something you want, but he doesn't have something you NEED. You hold all the cards in this negotiation.

He gains
- Ultimate Power for you risking your life, possibly killing your protection against the tadpole. Or that person killing you

You gain
- Possibly losing your GARUNTEED tadpole protection, Possibly getting killed by freeing Orpheus, by Orpheus with the hammer. Getting turned into a Mindflayer if Orhpeus runs off. The Loss of the Emperor as an ally The wrath of possibly every God ever for throwing the 9 hells out of balance, the wrath of every Devil and Demon in the 9 hells for throwing the hells out of balance. Maybe a smooch from Lae'zel.

Then he just straight up tells you "Lol I have the one thing that can free Orpho in my house." Which weakens his bargaining power ten fold because now you know where to get the hammer and that it is a hammer.

There is no reason to make this deal, nobody in their right mind would consider it, not to mention its not even a deal because you hold all of the power in this bargain, it's like if somebody tried to make a deal with you to trade you a theoretical inflatable raft while you were already sitting in a boat. You already have a boat!

less likely you are to have caught onto the tadpole not intending to harm you

I thought him to be the kind of devil able to manoeuvre you into a situation where you simply can’t say no anymore, but this is not the case. The crown is simply too important and by the time Raphael offers his deal, there are too many options on the table to avoid the deal altogether. And it makes Raphael look incompetent and weak. As things currently stand Mizora does a way better job imho. At least there is some emotional impact when refusing the deal she offers Wyll. When refusing Raphael's deal I just thought: “Thanks for the info buddy, so nice of you to share, see you later.” Just out of the door I could tell Lae’zel: “Let’s go steal it!”

Either the deal is offered way earlier, when you don’t have all the information yet or the deal needs to include something more meaningful.
Personally, I would love if the deal still included the tadpoles. I would appreciate it if Larian would link serious consequences to tadpole consumption and give the player a better incentive to use them. Why not make tadpole consumption plot relevant instead of just a cool ingame feature? In order to advance in certain areas, Illithid powers are practically required. There should still be a way to avoid them to allow player choice, but it could be so difficult that the tadpoles would seem the best and simpler option.

Once you reach act 3, the full consequences of your action could be revealed to you. Ceremorphosis could be unstoppable at this point, even if you destroy the elder brain. And then Raphael can come in, making his offer (removal of the tadpoles or preventing ceremorphosis) to save your day. This would offer some real incentive (at least for me).
What I would like even more: the cut content where origin characters could decide on their own if they want to accept Illithid powers or not. It would mean your whole party could be at stake or at least several of them. Maybe you resisted but your love interest did not. Would make for some lovely camp discussions and could even be used to turn a companion against you at the last minute if you refuse the deal.