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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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If it was just about power though, you would think that if you give him the stones then he would betray you and dominate the elder brain. He doesn't though. If you trust him, he does exactly what he says he'll do and there are zero consequences.
Ultimately, he wants to live. He only kills Ansur because Ansur tries to kill him, he wants to destroy the Elder Brain because it's a threat to him, he doesn't want to free Orpheus because he thinks Orpheus will kill him, and he joins the Elder Brain when he thinks he's no longer able to defeat it. I don't think that's a particularly evil motivation. He never lies to you, never threatens you, never charms you, never dominates you, and never betrays you. He's the only reason you're alive and he can kill you at any moment by rescinding his protection. He never even floats with as a possibility to you though.
It's unfortunate that siding with him shafts Lae'zel.
He never lies to you? Really? That's a bit rich considering that he comes to you in a disguise that was deliberately made to fool you. That is pretty much the definition of a lie. He also lies about Stelmane and he does threaten you if you treat him badly. Sure, he protects you with Orpheus' powers but that is only because he needs you i.e. someone outside of the artifact to work towards his plans of liberation from the Elder Brain.
So, does he have good intentions? Not really. His intentions are only as good as his nature - which, as a soulless parasitic braineater, is still pretty bad all things considered. Acting out of self-preservation might be neutral when viewed in a vacuum, but given the context of what he's preserving i.e. the existence of a mindflayer that eats human brains and enthralls people, it doesn't seem so neutral after all (which is what Ansur recognised as well).
People say "oh, but he doesn't choose to betray you and dominate the brain instead of destroying it" like that somehow means he's a good guy. What it really just means is that he's not bad enough to seek out total world domination (low bar) or maybe he suspects that if he went down that route, enough powerful factions would eventually come after him to guarantee his demise. Maybe he knows that if the three chosen of the Dead Three failed, he would also eventually lose control over the brain which after all is the one who possesses all the power of the Crown. Anyway, the absence of total evil is not proof of good character.
What's far more interesting is that when faced with an actual moral dilemma in the case of Orpheus, he never even tries to hedge his bets by entertaining the possibility that Orpheus might help out and instead opts for the nuclear approach of siding with the brain if you don't want to doom the Gith for his paranoia. He has the choice between the possibility of death or guaranteed subjugation and he instantly chooses the latter. Now, of course he doesn't have player knowledge and the whole scene is mostly a plot contrivance anyways but it still tells us enough about the character to not feel even a little bit bad about siding against him.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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He never lies to you? Really? That's a bit rich considering that he comes to you in a disguise that was deliberately made to fool you. That is pretty much the definition of a lie. He also lies about Stelmane and he does threaten you if you treat him badly. Sure, he protects you with Orpheus' powers but that is only because he needs you i.e. someone outside of the artifact to work towards his plans of liberation from the Elder Brain. Think about it from his perspective. If he shows up as a mind flayer, there's zero chance for you to trust him. He withholds information out of necessity. What's the lie about Stelmane? So, does he have good intentions? Not really. His intentions are only as good as his nature - which, as a soulless parasitic braineater, is still pretty bad all things considered. Acting out of self-preservation might be neutral when viewed in a vacuum, but given the context of what he's preserving i.e. the existence of a mindflayer that eats human brains and enthralls people, it doesn't seem so neutral after all (which is what Ansur recognised as well). His intentions are good considering what he intends is to stop a threat to all of Faerun. That thing is also a threat to him, yes, but his actions result in an outcome that is good for everyone. There are a lot of things that feed on people. We have no evidence that what he says about only eating criminals is a lie. I've probably got a bigger body count than he does. People say "oh, but he doesn't choose to betray you and dominate the brain instead of destroying it" like that somehow means he's a good guy. What it really just means is that he's not bad enough to seek out total world domination (low bar) or maybe he suspects that if he went down that route, enough powerful factions would eventually come after him to guarantee his demise. Maybe he knows that if the three chosen of the Dead Three failed, he would also eventually lose control over the brain which after all is the one who possesses all the power of the Crown. Anyway, the absence of total evil is not proof of good character. It's actually a pretty high bar when world domination is right at his fingertips. There isn't really a better test of one's character than giving them power and seeing what they do with it. What's far more interesting is that when faced with an actual moral dilemma in the case of Orpheus, he never even tries to hedge his bets by entertaining the possibility that Orpheus might help out and instead opts for the nuclear approach of siding with the brain if you don't want to doom the Gith for his paranoia. He has the choice between the possibility of death or guaranteed subjugation and he instantly chooses the latter. Now, of course he doesn't have player knowledge and the whole scene is mostly a plot contrivance anyways but it still tells us enough about the character to not feel even a little bit bad about siding against him. I don't think his refusal to work with Orpheus is unreasonable. Orpheus can see we haven't turned illithid yet. It's entirely possible he'd be less amicable if the Emperor was standing right there. I think him having access to world domination and relinquishing it is a better indicator of his character.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Think about it from his perspective. If he shows up as a mind flayer, there's zero chance for you to trust him. He withholds information out of necessity. I wasn't talking about his motives there. I was merely refuting your claim that he wasn't lying. What's the lie about Stelmane? He talks about Stelmane as a friend and associate when in reality she was enthralled by him and eventually died to a stroke likely due to the Emperor's psychic control. His intentions are good considering what he intends is to stop a threat to all of Faerun. That thing is also a threat to him, yes, but his actions result in an outcome that is good for everyone. There are a lot of things that feed on people. We have no evidence that what he says about only eating criminals is a lie. I've probably got a bigger body count than he does. No, his intentions are primarily selfish. He wants to preserve his own life and freedom. Averting disaster from Faerûn just so happens to be the only way to achieve that. The positive outcome does not ennoble his motivations. Also killing people in combat is hardly the same as locking people who may or may not have been criminals in your basement for feeding purposes. It's actually a pretty high bar when world domination is right at his fingertips. There isn't really a better test of one's character than giving them power and seeing what they do with it. Not wanting to be an absolute ruler over everything and everyone does not mean you're a good person. I also listed a couple of reasons why he might consider it to not be in his best interest due to potential bad outcomes in the future. I don't think his refusal to work with Orpheus is unreasonable. Orpheus can see we haven't turned illithid yet. It's entirely possible he'd be less amicable if the Emperor was standing right there. I think him having access to world domination and relinquishing it is a better indicator of his character. Orpheus turns himself into a mindflayer to do what's necessary without hesitation after we reveal our information to him. I don't think the presence of a mindflayer would change much about the situation there.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think it does make sense. His quick decision to join the brain proves that his only ambition was power. He wanted to be on the winning side. When he saw his goals as impossible to achieve because you no longer needed him, he sacrificed his own freedom for power again. That being said, they could have built it up better by making his true ambitions more transparent when you've been nothing but distrusting and hostile towards him from the beginning. They could 100% make his rant longer after you decide to free Orpheus and make his manipulations worse if you've been trusting towards him. I never trusted them from the start so it wasn't much of a shock when he said, "Aight, fuck this I'm out."
If it was just about power though, you would think that if you give him the stones then he would betray you and dominate the elder brain. He doesn't though. If you trust him, he does exactly what he says he'll do and there are zero consequences.
Ultimately, he wants to live. He only kills Ansur because Ansur tries to kill him, he wants to destroy the Elder Brain because it's a threat to him, he doesn't want to free Orpheus because he thinks Orpheus will kill him, and he joins the Elder Brain when he thinks he's no longer able to defeat it. I don't think that's a particularly evil motivation. He never lies to you, never threatens you, never charms you, never dominates you, and never betrays you. He's the only reason you're alive and he can kill you at any moment by rescinding his protection. He never even floats with as a possibility to you though.
It's unfortunate that siding with him shafts Lae'zel.
It makes no sense. Even if he thought the brain was a better chance of survival, what's to stop him from just removing the mind barrier that's been preventing you from ceremorphosis the moment you tell him your intention to free Orpheus? Because that's what happens when you turn on him the first time, you get a game over screen since even though Orpheus powers are responsible for shielding, it is through his channeling of the powers that you are protected, not through Orpheus's direct intervention. And he leaves the stones with you on top. The entire scene is incoherent writing. What he does is obviously self-sabotaging and suicidal, completely out of character for him even if we accept that the Emperor is truly not a benevolent entity but just an opportunistic, self-centered manipulator as per the previous read communications or through dialogue antagonizing him. Even worse is someone else undergoing ceremorphosis without a damned tadpole. It's so nonsensical.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Thats because the Emperor has no personality or motivation.
He always behaves in a way to prove the player correct.
If the player trusts him he is trustworthy with the mist pure intention. If the player doesn't trust him then he is a evil schemer.
The epitome of lazy writing.
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member
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member
Joined: Jan 2021
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gotta agree with OP the whole gaurdian thing is utter trash. ruins the whole story for me. So much doesnt make sense, i mean one thing that urks me greatly being, you are made aware the entire game he is omni present witnessing your decisions and actions. So he witnesses my careful and determined efforts to romance shadowheart. having witnessed them bearing fruit and our love blossom he still decides i might be swayed into making out with him in all his repugnant squid form... i mean WTF larian its not even a female squid FFS (if such things even exist in illithid)
This isn't a problem limited to him, sadly. ALL characters want to jump you out of nowhere even if you're clearly already dating someone else or if you barely spoke to them at all. It's absolutely ridiculous and well worth the memes. This said... ...Emperor is my fav romance and I'm not even joking, I want more!  Mindflayers are genderless once they transform because obviously they only reproduce through tadpole infestation so yeah no, no luck if you're looking for a girl squid in the Forgotten Realms lol. I do like to headcanon that Omeluum might have been a woman before they transformed, tho.
- Firm believer in Mindflayer supremacy -
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Think about it from his perspective. If he shows up as a mind flayer, there's zero chance for you to trust him. He withholds information out of necessity. I wasn't talking about his motives there. I was merely refuting your claim that he wasn't lying. What's the lie about Stelmane? He talks about Stelmane as a friend and associate when in reality she was enthralled by him and eventually died to a stroke likely due to the Emperor's psychic control. His intentions are good considering what he intends is to stop a threat to all of Faerun. That thing is also a threat to him, yes, but his actions result in an outcome that is good for everyone. There are a lot of things that feed on people. We have no evidence that what he says about only eating criminals is a lie. I've probably got a bigger body count than he does. No, his intentions are primarily selfish. He wants to preserve his own life and freedom. Averting disaster from Faerûn just so happens to be the only way to achieve that. The positive outcome does not ennoble his motivations. Also killing people in combat is hardly the same as locking people who may or may not have been criminals in your basement for feeding purposes. It's actually a pretty high bar when world domination is right at his fingertips. There isn't really a better test of one's character than giving them power and seeing what they do with it. Not wanting to be an absolute ruler over everything and everyone does not mean you're a good person. I also listed a couple of reasons why he might consider it to not be in his best interest due to potential bad outcomes in the future. I don't think his refusal to work with Orpheus is unreasonable. Orpheus can see we haven't turned illithid yet. It's entirely possible he'd be less amicable if the Emperor was standing right there. I think him having access to world domination and relinquishing it is a better indicator of his character. Orpheus turns himself into a mindflayer to do what's necessary without hesitation after we reveal our information to him. I don't think the presence of a mindflayer would change much about the situation there. You're getting your facts wrong Stelmane didn't die from a stroke, she was murdered and her hand chopped off at the Elfsong tavern as part of the string of Bhaal ritual murders with Orin's quest: notes, npc, baldur's mouth all collaborates this its part of the main quest; the 'stroke' was the cover story when the emperor latched onto her mind, the exact scene he shows you is described in Murder in Baldur's Gate, which happened before DR1479 over a decade before BG3, in theory, the emperor having a hold over Stelmane's mind and being a friend and associate could both be true. The 'enthrallment' the emperor had over Stelmane wasn't the usual enthralling where her mind would be blown out and rewritten to be a loyal servant, she was described as having her mind and will intact but restrained and suffered when she is actively resisting. Its' all speculation without more context and facts. Which is precisely the problem with the Emperor and much of the latter portion of the game lack of consistency and holes in story
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member
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Joined: Jul 2023
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You're getting your facts wrong Stelmane didn't die from a stroke, she was murdered and her hand chopped off at the Elfsong tavern as part of the string of Bhaal ritual murders with Orin's quest: notes, npc, baldur's mouth all collaborates this its part of the main quest; the 'stroke' was the cover story when the emperor latched onto her mind, the exact scene he shows you is described in Murder in Baldur's Gate, which happened before DR1479 over a decade before BG3, in theory, the emperor having a hold over Stelmane's mind and being a friend and associate could both be true. The 'enthrallment' the emperor had over Stelmane wasn't the usual enthralling where her mind would be blown out and rewritten to be a loyal servant, she was described as having her mind and will intact but restrained and suffered when she is actively resisting. Its' all speculation without more context and facts. Which is precisely the problem with the Emperor and much of the latter portion of the game lack of consistency and holes in story I got the part about her death mixed up. Doesn't really change the overall point though. He lied about his relationship with Stelmane. I don't think being put in a coma and getting turned into a mind controlled thrall for a decade could constitute a friendship by any stretch of the imagination just because the Emperor may or may not have gotten sentimental about his favourite pet. That's some very skewed thinking.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Point is without factual context its all speculation based on personal perspective, a lot can change over a decade especially the circumstances of her entanglement, like why didn't he just truly enthralled her completely, then there would be no evidence of his tampering otherwise, he had a decade after all. Just because he showed you this scene, in response to you openly vilifying him for his appearance no less, is just as much a threat and a confirmation of the player's choice of bias. I'm not convinced until someone unveils the emperor's evil master plan for world domination which hasn't happened yet.
Lying about personal history by omission is a really low bar for judging someone's overall alignment in my opinion, since most of the companions did it in varying degrees and most everyone is willing to forgive those in a heartbeat, even the life threatening ones.
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member
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Joined: Jul 2023
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Point is without factual context its all speculation based on personal perspective, a lot can change over a decade especially the circumstances of her entanglement, like why didn't he just truly enthralled her completely, then there would be no evidence of his tampering otherwise, he had a decade after all. Just because he showed you this scene, in response to you openly vilifying him for his appearance no less, is just as much a threat and a confirmation of the player's choice of bias. I'm not convinced until someone unveils the emperor's evil master plan for world domination which hasn't happened yet.
Lying about personal history by omission is a really low bar for judging someone's overall alignment in my opinion, since most of the companions did it in varying degrees and most everyone is willing to forgive those in a heartbeat, even the life threatening ones. Once a vigorous and formidable politician, Duke Belynne Stelmane recently suffered a seizure that left her with a partially paralyzed face and slowed speech. In truth, a mind flayer provoked the duke’s “seizure” when it took mental possession of her. Now Stelmane wages a silent war against the mind flayer’s influence, biding her time until she can find a way to signal for aid or regain her will. Not even Stelmane’s aides are aware of her secret struggle, though they cover for her as best they can. The version of events he reveals to you when you press him is confirmed by sources outside of the game - player bias or not. Now, if you ask me that doesn't sound very amicable. In fact that sounds like a type of thing even a decade of servitude couldn't smooth out into a fruitful friendship. But even if we didn't have outside sources confirming this, the Emperor would still be a lying manipulator who creates different versions of events in order to get you to do and believe what he wants. In regards to your second point. It's not a lie by omission. If I tell you that I'm friends with someone when in reality that someone has been my prisoner for the last 10 years that is not a "lie by omission". That's just an outright lie and a pretty blatant one at that. Also whereas your companions open up on their own and confess their secrets to you eventually, the Emperor only reveals his lies when you show him enough hostility for him to realise that the milk is already spilt and he has to try a new approach to get you to do his bidding. If you treat him nicely he will never tell you the truth about Stelmane because he's a manipulator who only tells you the bare minimum he needs to ensure your cooperation. So yeah, if you think the Emperor is a good trustworthy guy knowing all this I have a bridge to sell you.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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As I said, even if this character is a good/evil guy, it's the reaction we take issue with. There is no coherence to that reaction regardless of his alignment. I would much prefer this character make a tactical retreat or be fleshed out as a true reveal and boss fight of his own, rather than what they pulled out. And the "pick your flavor of ceremorphosis" three color option ala Mass Effect 3 really does write the story into a corner and make possible post-game expansions so much harder because this is an impossible branching to reconcile into ongoing post-game stories.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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If you know the source referenced outside then you should have known what her 'stroke' was about? interrogation. And the mystery of their mutual shared interest when operating Knights of the Shield given it was still an organization corrupted due to the influences of Gargauth where she is was the leader of.
Most of the companions only end up revealing the things dues to circumstance, astarian? you caught him trying to dine and dash, gale? nuke isn't satisfied with your sacrifices, shadowheart? laezel found out she's a thief, wyll? mizora thinks its funny to punish him in front of you. Saying they reveal it to you due to trust is understating it.
And what is this evil manipulator trying to get you to do ? become the hero of baldur's gate by defeating the cult of the absolute? pure evil. He isn't good for sure, but no more evil than the kind of people you help already
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member
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Joined: Jul 2023
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If you know the source referenced outside then you should have known what her 'stroke' was about? interrogation. And the mystery of their mutual shared interest when operating Knights of the Shield given it was still an organization corrupted due to the influences of Gargauth where she is was the leader of. I don't even know what you're trying to say here. None of this changes the fact that the Emperor turns Stelmane into his thrall against her will and uses her for his designs while telling us that they were friends and partners (because he's a liar). Most of the companions only end up revealing the things dues to circumstance, astarian? you caught him trying to dine and dash, gale? nuke isn't satisfied with your sacrifices, shadowheart? laezel found out she's a thief, wyll? mizora thinks its funny to punish him in front of you. Saying they reveal it to you due to trust is understating it. Speak for yourself. Astarion just flat-out told me he's a vampire on my playthrough. Gale eventually comes clean with you even though he asks you to blindly trust him at first. Shadowheart also just shares her memories with you through the tadpole once she trusts you enough and tells you everything that wasn't removed from her memory. Wyll only lies by omission because his infernal contract makes it impossible for him to talk about it unless Mizora allows it. None of these things are comparable to the type of manipulation the Emperor employs. And what is this evil manipulator trying to get you to do ? become the hero of baldur's gate by defeating the cult of the absolute? pure evil. He isn't good for sure, but no more evil than the kind of people you help already Well, he's trying to groom you into becoming a mindflayer for one which means death at best and the destruction of your soul at worst (I'm not sure if the lore is very clear on this but Withers says the soul gets destroyed by Ceremorphosis). He also wants you to be complicit in killing Orpheus and thereby robbing the Gith race of their future. Oh, and he tries to convince you to kill Minsc for no apparent reason.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2020
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Astarion just flat-out told me he's a vampire on my playthrough. Just curious, how do you get this to happen? Never long rest?
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Joined: Jul 2023
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Astarion just flat-out told me he's a vampire on my playthrough. Just curious, how do you get this to happen? Never long rest? Honestly, I have no clue what triggered it but I definitely didn't long rest very often. I was pretty surprised myself when I saw him just say "oh, by the way. I'm a vampire." since I had never seen that interaction in the EA. It was also kinda weird because my character still acted surprised about his vampirism when he tried to bite me later. Maybe it triggers if you meet the monster hunter before he tries to bite you.
Last edited by Nerovar; 02/09/23 12:06 AM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Thing is, technically he hasn't really enthralled her?; if we're going by her description her mind is still there but chained except when working together, being enthralled would mean she had her mind blown out and rewritten into whatever the emperor wanted it to be which is what makes them great spies. But he didn't and kept her around collaborating with her for over a decade. The extraordinary circumstances in the very least do make them long time collogues and friends in the technical sense or, if you like, in the worse case the emperor totally enthralled her, still yes, they are totally bffs and whatever more he likes because he rewritten her mind to be just so. At the very least not technically lying.
Aside from Astarian (only triggered once), Gale 'eventually' coming clean is still being forced by the fact he can't suppress the bomb anymore,
Were you in romance with shadowheart? I'm pretty sure she never reveals stealing the prism until laezel calls her out on it
Also Wylls can't talk to you about his contract, not the fact he's sold to the devils; mizora even tells him he was naughty for not telling us about her
"Robbing Gith race of their future" is hilarious because the githyanki want nothing more than to have world spanning empires like the illithids and enslave everyone.
The souls thing is new, cause other sources dance around it aside from mind flayer liches, still required to craft and trap in a phylactery. But its larian's story so we have to go with that.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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Thing is, technically he hasn't really enthralled her?; if we're going by her description her mind is still there but chained except when working together, being enthralled would mean she had her mind blown out and rewritten into whatever the emperor wanted it to be which is what makes them great spies. But he didn't and kept her around collaborating with her for over a decade. The extraordinary circumstances in the very least do make them long time collogues and friends in the technical sense or, if you like, in the worse case the emperor totally enthralled her, still yes, they are totally bffs and whatever more he likes because he rewritten her mind to be just so. At the very least not technically lying.
What you're describing is is still a horrible violation of a person's autonomy and a terrible position for a person to be in. Any "friendship" that could rise from that would be better classified as Stockholm syndrome.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Killing people is also horrible violation of personal autonomy, though I personally don't believe the emperor actually enthralled stelmane anyway, its simply to demonstrate it is within the realms of possibility he hasn't lied to the pc, as he saids.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Killing people is also horrible violation of personal autonomy, though I personally don't believe the emperor actually enthralled stelmane anyway, its simply to demonstrate it is within the realms of possibility he hasn't lied to the pc, as he saids. You're missing the point. The point isn't that violating someone's personal autonomy in that way is morally bad (even though it obviously is). The point is that you cannot call someone a friend while at the same time mind controlling them to do what you want against their will. That's just not what the word friendship means. What are you even trying to say? Is this supposed to be a semantic argument that he could have viewed his relationship with Stelmane as a friendship because he was sentimental about his mind-slave so it's not a lie based on this technicality? Because that is very silly. We even know that Stelmane struggled to resist the Emperor and regain her will. There's simply no way the Emperor could conceive of this relationship as a friendship in any meaningful way and if he does then it's basically just proof of a very sick and degenerate mind. The dynamic of their relationship is that she is his slave and he is her master. That is not a friendship and it doesn't magically turn into one just because he's enslaved her for a very long time.
Last edited by Nerovar; 02/09/23 12:49 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2022
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its what happens when the story gets changed last min
like the difference between sex and rape is consent
Luke Skywalker: I don't, I don't believe it.
Yoda: That is why you failed.
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