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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2018
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Tolkien only every describes Legolas as being tall, and he does not use twin daggers in the books.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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OP I disagree because all of this is just subjective ranting.
You're not wrong. You're just fail to understand that's your opinion is highly subjective that everything you dislike is automatically "Fact!", those what Larian did is "Lazy writing". Dear Dext. Paladin! You (and many others) sadly clearly missed the main point in my so called "subjective ranting"! Which point is: in my every adduced topics, I referring to the world's author's very own words. You know, somebody somewhere written down something (in this case the very authors of this fantasy world), because they imagined that thing the way as they did (and and nobody done that before). From that point he/she or even they are the "creators" and what they imagined and writed down about that is the fact and the very elemental basic about that. For example: J. R. R. Tolkien write it: Legolas is an elven fighter, with blue eyes blond hair, and using mainly his bow and his twin elven daggers. From this point this is the basics about Legolas and all of it's a fact (and not a subjective oppinion) because the author of him imagined him this way! So if anybody calling or portraying Legolas as a human thief, or an elven bard, or a dwarf fighter... etc.(anything but not exactly that as the author) is incorrect, wrong and a lie! The creators of this world written down clearly (and done that a little bit longer before than some studios had the idea to "create a crpg about them" to make money): -Mephistopheleses: traits, behaviours, attitude... etc. -The different elven subraces (among them the drows as well): general racial traits, ...etc. -The assimars: general racial traits, ...etc. -The Faerunian Gods: traits, behaviours, attitude... etc. -Minsc as a ranger and a Rashemen berserker (did you know where is his berserker ability in BG 3? because even as a ranger he had it in BG 1-2)...etc. ...etc. etc. etc. So every of this is written down as facts, not in some player hand book edition or in some game what the majority or the minority like it or not, but in the books where the authors firstly created this races, characters, ...etc. and it's traits behaviours ...etc.! The difference is: someones know this because they read that, and someones don't know this. And sadly those who don't know this, have the tendency to call that incorrections and lies to: "subjective", "insignificant", "unimportant" ...etc. just because the don't know it. Simple as it is! (some says: "ignorance is bliss!", I say: "ignorance is careless, and ignoring peoples sooner or later always pay the price of their own ignorance!") And BG 3 clearly doesn't surpassed BG 2 or BG 1 or NWN 2 or ID 1-2 or even Sword Coast Legends, because they games at least respected and don't tarnished those basics! The only thing what BG 3 is evidently could surpassed in this way is: that BG 3 is more Faerun incorrect game than NWN 1 ever was! (which is not a great trait) And Yes I call it sloppy and lazy writing, because if they can't respect or kept that simple basics as it is (which to do, doesn't need even fantasy or talent at all) that's alone is shame! Or if they do that intentionally that's even a bigger shame! Hi. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying your perception of the story warped the reality itself. Yes, they might have been elements in the story that "feels like" that it wasn't supposed to be as it was defined on prior writing. Remember, in BG2 player can play a Bhaalspawn that doesn't like to murder. A Bhaalspawn, who didn't like to murder? The audacity! You'd be surprised that out here, in material plane where people actually live, in order to create a story, people have to suspend their disbelief so that an Art/Story can be conveyed as it was intended by the art maker or in this case, a DM. Seems to me you wrote an entire thesis to say that you unable to suspend your disbelief, warped that bias as if it was a fact, which is not.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Jan 2023
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Dear Dext. Paladin! Most of the dear players usually forgot (or don't know at all) that The Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world what started it's "career" in the novels! (but I already mentioned this, the first novel in the Realms came out in 1987 from this world's creator Ed Greenwood)
Implementing this fantasy world as a TTRPG, what use the D&D rule sets only came many years and many novels later, and implementing as a successful CRPG game is only happened at 1998 in the 1'st Baldur's Gate game.
So to said it easy and plainly: from cronological and all other logical viewpoints the Novels is the main stream and the main source of the lore in this fantasy world (why: because the novels continuing even this days "more than 35 years of lore in the lot more than hundreds of novels already" from many talented and respected writers whos the creator of this fantasy world), not the actual edition of D&D rule set or any game, because any of that came only after. So you say, those who told different from the facts (which is in every interpretation is a lie) is right?! Alright so you are sided those who "warped the reality itself"... it's soo good to know! As (mostly) a D.M. (BTW in other TTRPG called G.M.) and player in many TTRPG (among them D&D, Shadowrun, Vampire, M.A.G.U.S. and some other not widely known) in the last more than 20 years, so let's just say I'm exactly know what a D.M. can do (and what CAN'T DO(!)) for the story. BUT NEWSFLASH: every existing fantasy world (and every TT guidebook) use it's creators(!) basics and facts as fundamentals, because without that can't create any rule system for any RPG! So in every RPG both the player and the D.M. need a "common ground" as "benchmark" because without that they can't play at all. And maybe for you and the others who don't know these basics of this world, is "soo good" and "great" that Larian narrows (desecrated, tarnished, and lied about) that "common ground",but for me and those who know that basics it's not acceptable! And BTW for any GOOD(!) D.M. it's the very basic to keep respect and follow the fundamental, and create the new and interesting story when he/she builds on this fundamentals. Which is clearly doesn't happened it here! And again that doesn't change that Larian tarnished and lied (and their possible reasons, doesn't change that all, that this is facts again) about this facts! About the Bhaal spawn! Thank you soo much that is exactly my point, because they created a thing which "doesn't existed" before so they can used it freely as they wanted! You know: "builded something new and original up on the already existing, and in the same time keept and respect the fundamentals"! (which is again just the basics of every RPG) So if Larian want to create for example: 3 and half meter tall dwarfs, and feather skinned elves which they want to call goblins, or tieflings whos the descendant of a higher plane creature ...etc. etc. they can do that any time if they creating their new and very own fantasy world (because in there what they say is become the fundamental), but when they creating something up on that existing already they must keep and respect the fundamentals! And if they not, that's a sloppy lazy and failed work! Simple as it is! And again just because you and some other dear players in thw "material planes" don't know these basics, that show only the "lack of knowledge", but don't change the facts! BTW the universal cure for the lack of knowledge is the very same from thousands of years (and nowadays available nearly to anybody): read the books! (which is I already suggested many times in this thread!  ) Cheers!
Last edited by Zillak; 28/08/23 09:34 AM.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Okay, folks. Let's recognise when we've made our points and that it's time to agree to disagree.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2019
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OP I disagree because all of this is just subjective ranting.
You're not wrong. You're just fail to understand that's your opinion is highly subjective that everything you dislike is automatically "Fact!", those what Larian did is "Lazy writing". Dear Dext. Paladin! You (and many others) sadly clearly missed the main point in my so called "subjective ranting"! Which point is: in my every adduced topics, I referring to the world's author's very own words. You know, somebody somewhere written down something (in this case the very authors of this fantasy world), because they imagined that thing the way as they did (and and nobody done that before). From that point he/she or even they are the "creators" and what they imagined and writed down about that is the fact and the very elemental basic about that. For example: J. R. R. Tolkien write it: Legolas is an elven fighter, with blue eyes blond hair, and using mainly his bow and his twin elven daggers. From this point this is the basics about Legolas and all of it's a fact (and not a subjective oppinion) because the author of him imagined him this way! So if anybody calling or portraying Legolas as a human thief, or an elven bard, or a dwarf fighter... etc.(anything but not exactly that as the author) is incorrect, wrong and a lie! The creators of this world written down clearly (and done that a little bit longer before than some studios had the idea to "create a crpg about them" to make money): -Mephistopheleses: traits, behaviours, attitude... etc. -The different elven subraces (among them the drows as well): general racial traits, ...etc. -The assimars: general racial traits, ...etc. -The Faerunian Gods: traits, behaviours, attitude... etc. -Minsc as a ranger and a Rashemen berserker (did you know where is his berserker ability in BG 3? because even as a ranger he had it in BG 1-2)...etc. ...etc. etc. etc. So every of this is written down as facts, not in some player hand book edition or in some game what the majority or the minority like it or not, but in the books where the authors firstly created this races, characters, ...etc. and it's traits behaviours ...etc.! The difference is: someones know this because they read that, and someones don't know this. And sadly those who don't know this, have the tendency to call that incorrections and lies to: "subjective", "insignificant", "unimportant" ...etc. just because the don't know it. Simple as it is! (some says: "ignorance is bliss!", I say: "ignorance is careless, and ignoring peoples sooner or later always pay the price of their own ignorance!") And BG 3 clearly doesn't surpassed BG 2 or BG 1 or NWN 2 or ID 1-2 or even Sword Coast Legends, because they games at least respected and don't tarnished those basics! The only thing what BG 3 is evidently could surpassed in this way is: that BG 3 is more Faerun incorrect game than NWN 1 ever was! (which is not a great trait) And Yes I call it sloppy and lazy writing, because if they can't respect or kept that simple basics as it is (which to do, doesn't need even fantasy or talent at all) that's alone is shame! Or if they do that intentionally that's even a bigger shame! Multiclass Minsc into Barbian and pick the sybclass Bezeker. There has been been 3 major edition changes (3e, 4e, 5e) and 2 minor edition changes (3.5e, 4e Essentials), with a third minor edition change coming in 2024 for 5e. The Spellplague, Sundering, and more has happened since BG2 with piles of more lore. Blame WotC for lore issues, not Larian.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2017
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Sword Coast Legends is one of the worst dnd games ever. Lol
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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Dear Dext. Paladin! Most of the dear players usually forgot (or don't know at all) that The Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world what started it's "career" in the novels! (but I already mentioned this, the first novel in the Realms came out in 1987 from this world's creator Ed Greenwood)
Implementing this fantasy world as a TTRPG, what use the D&D rule sets only came many years and many novels later, and implementing as a successful CRPG game is only happened at 1998 in the 1'st Baldur's Gate game.
So to said it easy and plainly: from cronological and all other logical viewpoints the Novels is the main stream and the main source of the lore in this fantasy world (why: because the novels continuing even this days "more than 35 years of lore in the lot more than hundreds of novels already" from many talented and respected writers whos the creator of this fantasy world), not the actual edition of D&D rule set or any game, because any of that came only after. So you say, those who told different from the facts (which is in every interpretation is a lie) is right?! Alright so you are sided those who "warped the reality itself"... it's soo good to know! As (mostly) a D.M. (BTW in other TTRPG called G.M.) and player in many TTRPG (among them D&D, Shadowrun, Vampire, M.A.G.U.S. and some other not widely known) in the last more than 20 years, so let's just say I'm exactly know what a D.M. can do (and what CAN'T DO(!)) for the story. BUT NEWSFLASH: every existing fantasy world (and every TT guidebook) use it's creators(!) basics and facts as fundamentals, because without that can't create any rule system for any RPG! So in every RPG both the player and the D.M. need a "common ground" as "benchmark" because without that they can't play at all. And maybe for you and the others who don't know these basics of this world, is "soo good" and "great" that Larian narrows (desecrated, tarnished, and lied about) that "common ground",but for me and those who know that basics it's not acceptable! And BTW for any GOOD(!) D.M. it's the very basic to keep respect and follow the fundamental, and create the new and interesting story when he/she builds on this fundamentals. Which is clearly doesn't happened it here! And again that doesn't change that Larian tarnished and lied (and their possible reasons, doesn't change that all, that this is facts again) about this facts! About the Bhaal spawn! Thank you soo much that is exactly my point, because they created a thing which "doesn't existed" before so they can used it freely as they wanted! You know: "builded something new and original up on the already existing, and in the same time keept and respect the fundamentals"! (which is again just the basics of every RPG) So if Larian want to create for example: 3 and half meter tall dwarfs, and feather skinned elves which they want to call goblins, or tieflings whos the descendant of a higher plane creature ...etc. etc. they can do that any time if they creating their new and very own fantasy world (because in there what they say is become the fundamental), but when they creating something up on that existing already they must keep and respect the fundamentals! And if they not, that's a sloppy lazy and failed work! Simple as it is! And again just because you and some other dear players in thw "material planes" don't know these basics, that show only the "lack of knowledge", but don't change the facts! BTW the universal cure for the lack of knowledge is the very same from thousands of years (and nowadays available nearly to anybody): read the books! (which is I already suggested many times in this thread! ) Cheers! Seems like a long thesis just to say "Rule of Cool sucks!" Yes, I want my drow a Baldur's Gate native and never been in Underdark once in their live! Apart from contradicting yourself by saying "Creating something new is good" and putting arbitrary limitation that this specific scenario (Bhaalspawn) is "good" because it "respect" the "fundamentals" (fundamentals, being "I like it" more accurately) - you keep spinning stuff that has little to no sense at all! I am very impressed.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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As I said ... Okay, folks. Let's recognise when we've made our points and that it's time to agree to disagree. If you find yourself in a to and fro disagreement with another forum member and it's starting to get a bit heated, it's almost certainly time to disengage and accept that you just have different views. You're allowed to privately continue to think yours are right 
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Jan 2023
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It's nothing "heated" in here at least from my side. As I wrote it in the original thread I already agree to disagree with all whos like Shitdur's Gate 3. Also I genuinely (even if not with the nicest words) adviced them, to read the original novels, where they can read the mentioned points not from my words, but the words from the authors. Many of the dear members ignore that, not my problem at all, theirs! Also I genuinly adviced them, instead of flying to the rainbow colored clouds of their own satisfaction, demand the devs to create a game what correct to the original fantasy world. Many of the dear members ignore that, not my problem at all, theirs! Why is this important: because without that, the devs start to think more and more of the so call "subjective" and "little details" is unimportant and don't need to do correctly, because until the majority and the canon is satisfied any other thing is unimportant.=> which attitude btw. the straigth way to the degeneration of the games generally, and to specificly this fantasy world's degeneration as well. And there is my problem because in this way, instead of spreading the world's authors words, the not soo detailed dear players started to spread the devs incorrections and lies! Which is only unintentionally their fault, but intentional or unintentional from the view of the result it's unimportant because that's the straigth way to degradation and finally to ruin! From my part I done what was right, and genuinely adviced, where to find the original and what to need to do to become more detailed. They ignored that, again not my problem at all, theirs! And they think that's not their problem at all? Good! Because if and until the majority and the canon is satisfied that means they (the devs, money mans, etc.) can do everythin without consequences! BTW: "WHEN" and in this situation, not the "happen or not" is the question, only the "WHEN". So when it happen (thanks to their current ignorance) that some of the devs starting to mess with one of the thing/topic etc. which is important and liked (and everybody have one) to the dear little ignoring ones whos now flying in ther rainbow clouds, they become the most loud about how "deeply wrong what they done against them" but that time they faces to the "detailed above everybody" and "everytime they right" majority's and canon's ignorance! And again that's not my problem, because I already laugh about their that time "hypocrisy"! So nothing is "heated" in here, just again the cold facts, which someones accept, and someones ignore. Cheers!
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Wow. I read the starting post. I've read about 90% of this entire thread. Now evaluate how difficult it was: English is not my native language.
What is it, Wendy`s, by the way?
I think that a good game BG3 should have been called something else - and would not have lost anything from it. There would be no Jaikhera, Minskс, Sarevok (I may accidentally spell the names incorrectly, because it's not obvious by ear) in it - and it would be great. One could say "coincidences are random"
Who would be upset with this option? Marketers? Because they would have missed the opportunity to play the brand. But the brand was popular too many years ago.
Fans of books? There are not so many fans today. Sorry, guys. There are too few of you.
I'm not a fan of the world of Faerun. But I've read The Silmarillion. And there is no need to make a Silmarillion game, because there are enough boring games.
It's enough that there is The Eve online in the world.
To understand what is happening in the game, I have previously read several brief descriptions that have been abominably translated into Russian. More or less understood. I would not like to see a game that I need to read three dozen books to understand (not the fact that they are all translated into Russian). Arguing about whether Drow are elves? Let's first decide if Pluto is a planet. Or whether the light is a wave or a particle. In order for the character in the game to understand me correctly, I put the knowledge of history -1 and magic -1.
Forgot to add: anyone who thinks that BG2 is better than Fallout is overconfident
Last edited by Cyberliner; 20/09/23 10:58 AM.
keep in mind that everything you say will be translated by Google and misunderstood
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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I concur that BG3 should of been called something else.
I am still unsure that the Larian team even likes the previous games and lore. Or just doesn't care? Up to now, all the Larian fanfare arent really about BALDURS GATE for say, but more "Dungeons and Dragons" 5E. And even that ...so much ERRORS.
I would not be surprised that most of the Larian worldwide BG3 team haven't even finished BG2. Lots of young blood. Which is great when you make a new game, not so great when you make a sequel to one of the greatest RPGs ever made.
It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2023
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I agree that the lore is a total mess (and the FR wiki is like . . . right there. As are the BG games and lots of fans who know the details inside and out). However, WotC has been watering down its own lore and making everything more simplistic and boring for a while now, so I guess I can see why lore stuff turned out the way it did here.
I was just thinking about how, with the pleasant exception of Lae'zel, none of the companions' races matter. Like Karlach could be a fire genasi instead of a tiefling (anything with fire resistance I guess), Shadowheart could be a full elf or a human, and so on. In the original games, all the characters had so much flavor tied to their races, like Mazzy longing to be a paladin, Haer'Dalis being from Sigil, Aerie being a wingless avariel, and so on. Even the humans had cultural differences, like Edwin and Minsc. Maybe it's a 5E thing, but dang, race feels so superficial now.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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If the game would be called Divinity-3, then we would have the same thing, and also playable skeletons of humans, skeletons of elves, skeletons of dwarves, skeletons of halflings, skeletons of half-orcs...
In general, everything we love!
keep in mind that everything you say will be translated by Google and misunderstood
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addict
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addict
Joined: Aug 2023
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I think BG3 is perfectly "worthy its name".
Its actually much better than I hoped for when hearing of the project.
I'm not sure yet but I think this may replace BG2 as my most favorite game ever. Though Vampire: The Masuqerade: Bloodlines is also in the run for that title.
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