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addict
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Joined: Oct 2020
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Every single time, killing the Banites on the first floor keeps me stuck in combat permanently, even after destroying the gadgets and traps. It's so annoying. I get around this - literally - by sneaking up to the second floor through the "back entrance". Sometimes an annoying guard spots me, but other times they are apparently elsewhere and I can get to the top and listen to Gortash and Karlach go at it a bit before he bites the dust. I dropped combat from first floor by running to bridge and fleeing combat to camp. Came back. Lower floor non-combat. Upper floor not in combat, cutscene still does not trigger with me or Karlach. They just go into combat. I had to watch the damned cutscene on youtube, Act 3 has really put a damper on my game experience. The end part of any game is the most important part, it doesn't matter how good the beginning and middle are if the final act is a disjointed, unfinished buggy mess. This entirely feels like abrupt DOS2 "we ran out of time again" final act before they released the definitive edition, and it feels maybe not as bad because DOS2 ending pre-DE is terrible but this one is not far off.
Last edited by Zenith; 29/08/23 05:25 AM.
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2023
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I reloaded. I reloaded to even being in Lower City before entering Wyrmrock Fortress. Every single time, killing the Banites on the first floor keeps me stuck in combat permanently, even after destroying the gadgets and traps. It's so annoying. Look, you should make sure your turn-based combat queue is empty. This means you should destroy any flamethrower in the queue, as well as any grenade that is not blown up. Also, some nobles become hostile - they are not in the queue sometimes. Kill any of those that actually attack or use magic to make them friendly. When on the second floor (i.e. the floor with Gortesh hall), you SHOULD NOT be in combat. I dropped combat from first floor by running to bridge and fleeing combat to camp. Came back. Lower floor non-combat. Upper floor not in combat, cutscene still does not trigger with me or Karlach. They just go into combat. I had to watch the damned cutscene on youtube, Act 3 has really put a damper on my game experience. Not sure then  This place is obviously buggy, maybe you are too fast to reach Gortesh, idk...
Last edited by Faust-RSI; 29/08/23 05:28 AM.
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I knew that character was a disaster when he randomly decided to show up shirtless in my dreams out of nowhere. What a creep.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Gortesh is a joke. Just take out the flamethrower by the door, any force damage kills them- do it out of stealth. Likewise you can cast any fire cantrip on the bombs and gortesh will take 70-120 damage. I just shoved him from bomb to bomb and he died round 3. Easier fight.
Orin is actually hard as she has unstoppable, and has the ability to one shot you round 1. No she doesn't. Literally a single magic missiles and her unstoppable is gone, potion of speed and she loses 60% of her health to a lv6 magic missiles. Then whatever martial you have mops her up during the same turn. Orin did zero damage to my team, they were all 21-22 AC including Gale. And the bombs that were being thrown were bugged, so the grenade launchers were throwing the bombs at my characters AFTER they had already taken an action. Sometimes they threw two bombs on top of a teammate during one of my turns, and they would keep tossing more during that same turn every time interval if you wanted to test their launch pattern. The grenade launchers are bugged and are not respecting turn rules. Now I feel silly, I thought for some reason before you can fight Orin you have to get rid of her support dudes who cant even be pushed outside some skills. I made the fight really hard that way. While Gortash gadgets I destroyed almost all of them by Will's triple force ray before the battle or on turn one. You can literally stand barely outside everyones sight border and use it with no battle initiated (may be a bug?)
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Gortesh is a joke. Just take out the flamethrower by the door, any force damage kills them- do it out of stealth. Likewise you can cast any fire cantrip on the bombs and gortesh will take 70-120 damage. I just shoved him from bomb to bomb and he died round 3. Easier fight.
Orin is actually hard as she has unstoppable, and has the ability to one shot you round 1. No she doesn't. Literally a single magic missiles and her unstoppable is gone, potion of speed and she loses 60% of her health to a lv6 magic missiles. Then whatever martial you have mops her up during the same turn. Orin did zero damage to my team, they were all 21-22 AC including Gale. And the bombs that were being thrown were bugged, so the grenade launchers were throwing the bombs at my characters AFTER they had already taken an action. Sometimes they threw two bombs on top of a teammate during one of my turns, and they would keep tossing more during that same turn every time interval if you wanted to test their launch pattern. The grenade launchers are bugged and are not respecting turn rules. Now I feel silly, I thought for some reason before you can fight Orin you have to get rid of her support dudes who cant even be pushed outside some skills. I made the fight really hard that way. While Gortash gadgets I destroyed almost all of them by Will's triple force ray before the battle or on turn one. You can literally stand barely outside everyones sight border and use it with no battle initiated (may be a bug?) I feel even dumber because after suffering so much with the bugs at Gortash, I realized I never used my Mage Hand for Gortash, which would have made handling grenades so much easier as it's an extra throw action.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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The Guardian and all three main villains, and the actual ending were terribly underwhelming and nonsensical.
The Guardian is the *worst*, for all the reasons mentioned above. And more.
Frankly, I *hate* that he is who he is. It would explain why he wants to save the city or somesuch, but that's not his motivation at all. Unless you ask him to, then it's fine.
But the whole tadpole thing makes no sense. You're being enticed by the Guardian, who clearly isn't your friend, to become more and more flayer, you get the narrator saying; 'You lost something you never get back' and so forth....
My first playthrough I freed Orpeus. He's mad, because the first time there I killed his monks. He would've done better than Guardian. Fair enough. 2nd playthtough. I attack Guardian the second I can, I assume these monks can break the cage without the magic hammer, that's literally what Guardian is telling me. What you do you think? No. No, you're not allowed at this time, because you're still protected by the Guardian, and without him, the Absolute makes you a thrall. Even though it's *actually* Orpheus that's protecting me and he *clearly sees everything the Guardian sees*.
.. But it doesn't matter if you use the tadpole at all. I went my first run completely tadpole-free, always stating 'I want a cure' only to have the Guardian at the endgame go; "You know what would be good? If you were a mindflayer now!" - Piss off, game. In Early Access this was *way* cooler, where you got these weird evil powers only if you went that route, and the dream visitor just 'keeping you safe' and seducing you and all that. Way, way cooler. It also makes no sense that we're still asked to customize that character. He only comes on to you once the cat's out of the bag, anyway and in Flayer Form.
Maybe Raphael is the only sure-cure-way, I haven't done his deal yet. So far Raphael is the only true major villain I enjoy from start to finish, though. Next time, I'm giving him a McGuffin to play with.
Because the rest of them got a raw deal:
Thorm
He has three scenes. You meet him, and think that this dude is really interesting a villain. He looks awesome, portrayed by a great actor, yes please - give me more!
You find him in his lair, he has a few lines... You beat him. Never to be mentioned ever again. Okay. Unto Chapter Three, I guess.
Orin
She has nothing going for her. She's into Bhaal and is a Doppelganger. We knew that from the trailers. But there's nothing else. She has no plot, no clever scheme, no cool backstory or anything... Just, a maniacal shapeshifting killer. You can bee-line straight for her and get it over with. On my first playthrough I accidentally did that. I mean, that Temple entrance was a little TOO obvious, and she herself is a pushover. Yeah, okay. At least you meet her a lot, her shapeshifting shenanigens are pretty fun and on different playthroughs I had entirely different scenes for her. That was nice. But other than that, there is nothing to her.
Gortash
He has again, three scenes.
You see him in Act 2, You meet him in Act 3, and he hails you aboard the USS Enterprise. That's it. Kill him and be done with him. No politics, no scheming, no Bane cult to overthrow and give the city back to the rightful rulers or something. Just. Kill the boss.
And that brings me to the ending.
The final battle to the Absolute was fun, you're so overpowered now that it's fun to fling Mindflayers and Gobbos around like ragdolls. The Absolute is just what it is, a huge monster. Fine. Kill it.
Next time, I'm going to let the Dragon do something. First time around, I just charged it with Lae'zel, not optimized, never respecced, just a straight up level 12 Battlemaster. Dragon died before it got a turn. That final battle was such an easy fight, I was skipping turns waiting for more reinforcements to show up. Come on, invasion, you can do better than that.
Anyway, big fat monster, it dies.
But then what, for those 17000 endings, we're just standing on a pier? ANd that's that? After a hundred or so hours deciding who lives and who dies? No mention of Gnomes that I've been saving from the windmill all the way to Act 3? The fallout with the [tadpoled] Absolute's Forces? NO mention of the Shadow Druids and the Grove? How the Tieflings fared? The Sharran sect? The Owlbear Cub? The Selunite couple? What Tav will be doing after these events? What about the Duke that I rescued or not? The Shadow Curse? Who is ruling the City now? What's the situation like in the Underdark? Did it matter that I killed every Githyanki in that temple? Did the murders continue if I didn't investigate? Did the Gith Egg hatch to become a dentist or something? Heh. Doctor Yanki! What about the Zentharim and the Harpers and the Guild?
None of that.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 30/08/23 07:46 AM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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With that narrator line, I am 99.99% sure that is a line they overlooked cutting, a remnant of the Daisy mode.
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addict
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Joined: Oct 2020
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I finally got Gortash to work by using invis pots to trigger his pre-fight dialogue with Karlach. Zero opportunity to bring up his background or the House of Hope or Raphael. The dukes and patriars are still without interaction and babbling dialogue about pre-coronation Gortash meet after you deal with Gortash. This is not an artistic choice, this is unfinished content. By the way, even with Gortash gone, the Fist in the dormitory room stay hostile, and the kind Fist gnome you could help become a deserter by giving him money to get his family out still becomes hostile and attacks you if you open the dormitory door after sabotaging Gortash. So much lack of continuity by late Act 3. And that Hag coven, Myreena and her brothers were on the chopping block. In my playthrough, the brothers never died, but they don't reappear in Baldur's Gate and the sister hags to Aunt Ethel mentioned in the letters in Act 1 were cut content as well. The Gondians you rescue and the Ironhand Gnomes you help also never show up in the final battle meeting as the journal states they would. Lots of loose ends left untied. Regarding Mol in Act 3 We have no explanation whatsoever why she just dumps her gang out with the refugees and just moves on with the Guild. She doesn't even ask about them even though they refer to each other like family. Then, when you recover her contract with Raphael from Raphael's house, you need to just ask her if that's how she survived and that deals with Raphael don't go well in order to get her to join you for the final battle. If you tell her you met and killed Raphael, she becomes furious you killed her patron, that she was going to take over the Guild with him, and when she does in the future the Guild won't look kindly on you, and she won't join you for the final battle. A total schizophrenic writing of the character.
Last edited by Zenith; 30/08/23 04:36 AM.
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Joined: Jan 2021
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I really like the Guardian as a character and I subscribe to everything that you guys pointed out in this thread. During my first playthrough I decided to trust the Guardian, especially after the events of the crèche and the conversation with Voss who mistakenly thinks I am referring to Orpheus when I am talking about the person in the prism. Obviously at that point we are unaware of Orpheus and Voss is unaware of the Emperor and that is actually a clever way to turn a misunderstanding into an engaging mystery.
After the guardian is revealed as the Emperor I was even more intrigued and really enjoyed following the quest in which you investigate Stelmane murder scene and then find his personal belongings and the meeting room of the Knights of the Shield. In hindsight I feel like that part should've been expanded more, because you really don't get much of a sense of what the Knights were actually doing and they don't feel much distincted or different than the Guild... just another vague organization pulling the strings from the shadows.
In reality, their leaders are devil-worshippers in the service of Gargauth (we only get a VERY VAGUE HINT of this in one of the books we can find in the room with the round table where we fight the Githyanki which references 'moral decay' if I am not misremembering!) which makes it super weird for the Emperor to single-handedly taking over such an organization (and makes me wonder if this has something to do with Gortash's suspiciously lacking involvement in the plot). It also makes you wonder if Stelmane was really an innocent victim or if she was up to something more sinister. As many people have pointed out, the Emperor's behaviour is very incosistent and changes completely depending on our attitude towards him. If you're nice to him and pass a few checks before he is revealed to be Illithid, he flat out tells you that the last person who was kind to him was Stelmane and at that point in the story you have no idea who she even is so it's just... odd. If he told you that to manipulate you into trusting him, it would make no sense for him to bring up the specific name of someone that as far as he know is still alive and has dirt on him. Is just weird, and makes me inclined to believe that, just like with Ansur, he actually considered her a 'friend' and thought that mind-controlling her was 'for her own good' or found some other way to justify it in his imperscrutabile Illithid way of thinking. There's much more tha could be said about his character tbh, but I'm going to stop here 
- Firm believer in Mindflayer supremacy -
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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I wonder when Larian decided to rewrite the story and replace Daisy with the Guardian considering that the artbook still lists Daisy but there is no mention of either the Guardian or the Emperor, and not because of spoiler reasons.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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The Guardian and all three main villains, and the actual ending were terribly underwhelming and nonsensical.
The Guardian is the *worst*, for all the reasons mentioned above. And more.
Frankly, I *hate* that he is who he is. It would explain why he wants to save the city or somesuch, but that's not his motivation at all. Unless you ask him to, then it's fine.
But the whole tadpole thing makes no sense. You're being enticed by the Guardian, who clearly isn't your friend, to become more and more flayer, you get the narrator saying; 'You lost something you never get back' and so forth....
My first playthrough I freed Orpeus. He's mad, because the first time there I killed his monks. He would've done better than Guardian. Fair enough. 2nd playthtough. I attack Guardian the second I can, I assume these monks can break the cage without the magic hammer, that's literally what Guardian is telling me. What you do you think? No. No, you're not allowed at this time, because you're still protected by the Guardian, and without him, the Absolute makes you a thrall. Even though it's *actually* Orpheus that's protecting me and he *clearly sees everything the Guardian sees*.
.. But it doesn't matter if you use the tadpole at all. I went my first run completely tadpole-free, always stating 'I want a cure' only to have the Guardian at the endgame go; "You know what would be good? If you were a mindflayer now!" - Piss off, game. In Early Access this was *way* cooler, where you got these weird evil powers only if you went that route, and the dream visitor just 'keeping you safe' and seducing you and all that. Way, way cooler. It also makes no sense that we're still asked to customize that character. He only comes on to you once the cat's out of the bag, anyway and in Flayer Form.
Maybe Raphael is the only sure-cure-way, I haven't done his deal yet. So far Raphael is the only true major villain I enjoy from start to finish, though. Next time, I'm giving him a McGuffin to play with.
Because the rest of them got a raw deal:
Thorm
He has three scenes. You meet him, and think that this dude is really interesting a villain. He looks awesome, portrayed by a great actor, yes please - give me more!
You find him in his lair, he has a few lines... You beat him. Never to be mentioned ever again. Okay. Unto Chapter Three, I guess.
Orin
She has nothing going for her. She's into Bhaal and is a Doppelganger. We knew that from the trailers. But there's nothing else. She has no plot, no clever scheme, no cool backstory or anything... Just, a maniacal shapeshifting killer. You can bee-line straight for her and get it over with. On my first playthrough I accidentally did that. I mean, that Temple entrance was a little TOO obvious, and she herself is a pushover. Yeah, okay. At least you meet her a lot, her shapeshifting shenanigens are pretty fun and on different playthroughs I had entirely different scenes for her. That was nice. But other than that, there is nothing to her.
Gortash
He has again, three scenes.
You see him in Act 2, You meet him in Act 3, and he hails you aboard the USS Enterprise. That's it. Kill him and be done with him. No politics, no scheming, no Bane cult to overthrow and give the city back to the rightful rulers or something. Just. Kill the boss.
And that brings me to the ending.
The final battle to the Absolute was fun, you're so overpowered now that it's fun to fling Mindflayers and Gobbos around like ragdolls. The Absolute is just what it is, a huge monster. Fine. Kill it.
Next time, I'm going to let the Dragon do something. First time around, I just charged it with Lae'zel, not optimized, never respecced, just a straight up level 12 Battlemaster. Dragon died before it got a turn. That final battle was such an easy fight, I was skipping turns waiting for more reinforcements to show up. Come on, invasion, you can do better than that.
Anyway, big fat monster, it dies.
But then what, for those 17000 endings, we're just standing on a pier? ANd that's that? After a hundred or so hours deciding who lives and who dies? No mention of Gnomes that I've been saving from the windmill all the way to Act 3? The fallout with the [tadpoled] Absolute's Forces? NO mention of the Shadow Druids and the Grove? How the Tieflings fared? The Sharran sect? The Owlbear Cub? The Selunite couple? What Tav will be doing after these events? What about the Duke that I rescued or not? The Shadow Curse? Who is ruling the City now? What's the situation like in the Underdark? Did it matter that I killed every Githyanki in that temple? Did the murders continue if I didn't investigate? Did the Gith Egg hatch to become a dentist or something? Heh. Doctor Yanki! What about the Zentharim and the Harpers and the Guild?
None of that.
Yep, my chief problem with this game is it's like they built a beautiful mansion from the mechanics, combat, item design, environments, but they left the plumbing, electricals, and other critical elements unfinished or busted. The meat and guts of the story, narrative, pacing, plot consistency, all smack of last minute re-writes, events pointing to other events that were cut, villains that feel less like villains and more like just an obstacle to remove, story elements that don't fit, e.g. trying to prevent turning into an illithid all game only to force someone to at the very end there's so many other examples, many of which you provide here in detail that make it hard to view this game as receiving the accolades it has received. Sure, the gameplay and mechanics are top notch, baseline character/companion design, and everything else I mentioned were all great, but the writing...oh the writing, I just don't know what happened. I think that's what makes it so hard, because they did so much right and yet left other things so...lacking.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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I really like the Guardian as a character and I subscribe to everything that you guys pointed out in this thread. During my first playthrough I decided to trust the Guardian, especially after the events of the crèche and the conversation with Voss who mistakenly thinks I am referring to Orpheus when I am talking about the person in the prism. Obviously at that point we are unaware of Orpheus and Voss is unaware of the Emperor and that is actually a clever way to turn a misunderstanding into an engaging mystery.
After the guardian is revealed as the Emperor I was even more intrigued and really enjoyed following the quest in which you investigate Stelmane murder scene and then find his personal belongings and the meeting room of the Knights of the Shield. In hindsight I feel like that part should've been expanded more, because you really don't get much of a sense of what the Knights were actually doing and they don't feel much distincted or different than the Guild... just another vague organization pulling the strings from the shadows.
In reality, their leaders are devil-worshippers in the service of Gargauth (we only get a VERY VAGUE HINT of this in one of the books we can find in the room with the round table where we fight the Githyanki which references 'moral decay' if I am not misremembering!) which makes it super weird for the Emperor to single-handedly taking over such an organization (and makes me wonder if this has something to do with Gortash's suspiciously lacking involvement in the plot). It also makes you wonder if Stelmane was really an innocent victim or if she was up to something more sinister. As many people have pointed out, the Emperor's behaviour is very incosistent and changes completely depending on our attitude towards him. If you're nice to him and pass a few checks before he is revealed to be Illithid, he flat out tells you that the last person who was kind to him was Stelmane and at that point in the story you have no idea who she even is so it's just... odd. If he told you that to manipulate you into trusting him, it would make no sense for him to bring up the specific name of someone that as far as he know is still alive and has dirt on him. Is just weird, and makes me inclined to believe that, just like with Ansur, he actually considered her a 'friend' and thought that mind-controlling her was 'for her own good' or found some other way to justify it in his imperscrutabile Illithid way of thinking. There's much more tha could be said about his character tbh, but I'm going to stop here The relation to Gargauth does go deeper, you can find the key to Hhune mausoleum, inside the secret chamber adorned with knights of the shield decor you'll find the journal of someone remarks meeting the emperor and his usefulness to the knights of the shield.
Hhune or rather Inselm Hhune was the first lord of the knights directly under the orders of Gargauth through a now missing magical shield possessed with the devil's spirit
Convinced act3's cut content contributed to the Guardian's bipolar personality
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Joined: Jan 2021
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The relation to Gargauth does go deeper, you can find the key to Hhune mausoleum, inside the secret chamber adorned with knights of the shield decor you'll find the journal of someone remarks meeting the emperor and his usefulness to the knights of the shield.
Hhune or rather Inselm Hhune was the first lord of the knights directly under the orders of Gargauth through a now missing magical shield possessed with the devil's spirit
Convinced act3's cut content contributed to the Guardian's bipolar personality Nice, I completely missed this! I think I have only found my way into the other mausoleum and not this one. Honestly I didn't spend much time in the cemetery. Will take a look when I get there with by bard!
- Firm believer in Mindflayer supremacy -
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Joined: Oct 2020
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I wonder when Larian decided to rewrite the story and replace Daisy with the Guardian considering that the artbook still lists Daisy but there is no mention of either the Guardian or the Emperor, and not because of spoiler reasons. The big piece of evidence would be when the artbooks were printed. I'd honestly suspect that would be around when they were announced, because I'm pretty sure they were presented physically at some point early, and that was in late 2022 which would fit with my general belief that it was about twelve months out from release. There's a lot of interesting evidence in it, from Daisy, to the idea that Orpheus' identity as the "sleeping prince" was ever in doubt (remember, the idea was Daisy would be representing Orpheus, too, at points...), a more evil looking Nightsong idea, and so on...
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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I wonder when Larian decided to rewrite the story and replace Daisy with the Guardian considering that the artbook still lists Daisy but there is no mention of either the Guardian or the Emperor, and not because of spoiler reasons. The big piece of evidence would be when the artbooks were printed. I'd honestly suspect that would be around when they were announced, because I'm pretty sure they were presented physically at some point early, and that was in late 2022 which would fit with my general belief that it was about twelve months out from release. There's a lot of interesting evidence in it, from Daisy, to the idea that Orpheus' identity as the "sleeping prince" was ever in doubt (remember, the idea was Daisy would be representing Orpheus, too, at points...), a more evil looking Nightsong idea, and so on... I am currently not at my PC to check but all books usually list the print date for copyright purposes. Although that might only be included in the printed copy and not the digital one.
Last edited by Ixal; 31/08/23 01:43 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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gotta agree with OP the whole gaurdian thing is utter trash. ruins the whole story for me. So much doesnt make sense, i mean one thing that urks me greatly being, you are made aware the entire game he is omni present witnessing your decisions and actions. So he witnesses my careful and determined efforts to romance shadowheart. having witnessed them bearing fruit and our love blossom he still decides i might be swayed into making out with him in all his repugnant squid form... i mean WTF larian its not even a female squid FFS (if such things even exist in illithid)
Add that to the general garbage that is everything else connected to him , who he actually was (which tbh i,m amazed that wizards of the coast even greenlit), his complete 180 at the end if you opt for the other guy in the prism.... its just trash... i love this game but its just so sad that that the main story is the single most garbage thing about it, and it brings the whole experience down. such a waste.
Last edited by The Red Queen; 31/08/23 01:25 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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I think people are misunderstanding the Emperor. When your teacher says that if everyone behaves they'll get a pizza party and the class starts to act up, they'll remind everyone about the pizza party. That is an act of manipulation. Manipulation isn't inherently malicious and I think that's what he considers himself to be doing. He knows that if he shows up in your dreams as a Mind Flayer you won't trust him, so he hides that from you. But no matter how rude you are to him, if you trust him in the end he will destroy the nether brain. At the end of the day, regardless of what the nether brain says or what the player thinks, he's true to his word.
In regards to him betraying you if you side with Orpheus, I agree that that's not very cash money of him. However, Mind Flayers are incredibly intelligent. You showing up with the Orphic Hammer isn't really a surprise to him, so he's most likely thought through what happens if you choose to free Orpheus. He's wrong, of course, but he's most likely making this decision so quickly because he's already got it planned out. He may not actually be wrong since Orpheus may react differently if he woke up to an actual mind flayer instead of just a tadpole.
Last edited by Forblaze; 01/09/23 01:04 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I think it does make sense. His quick decision to join the brain proves that his only ambition was power. He wanted to be on the winning side. When he saw his goals as impossible to achieve because you no longer needed him, he sacrificed his own freedom for power again. That being said, they could have built it up better by making his true ambitions more transparent when you've been nothing but distrusting and hostile towards him from the beginning. They could 100% make his rant longer after you decide to free Orpheus and make his manipulations worse if you've been trusting towards him. I never trusted them from the start so it wasn't much of a shock when he said, "Aight, fuck this I'm out."
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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I think it does make sense. His quick decision to join the brain proves that his only ambition was power. He wanted to be on the winning side. When he saw his goals as impossible to achieve because you no longer needed him, he sacrificed his own freedom for power again. That being said, they could have built it up better by making his true ambitions more transparent when you've been nothing but distrusting and hostile towards him from the beginning. They could 100% make his rant longer after you decide to free Orpheus and make his manipulations worse if you've been trusting towards him. I never trusted them from the start so it wasn't much of a shock when he said, "Aight, fuck this I'm out."
If it was just about power though, you would think that if you give him the stones then he would betray you and dominate the elder brain. He doesn't though. If you trust him, he does exactly what he says he'll do and there are zero consequences.
Ultimately, he wants to live. He only kills Ansur because Ansur tries to kill him, he wants to destroy the Elder Brain because it's a threat to him, he doesn't want to free Orpheus because he thinks Orpheus will kill him, and he joins the Elder Brain when he thinks he's no longer able to defeat it. I don't think that's a particularly evil motivation. He never lies to you, never threatens you, never charms you, never dominates you, and never betrays you. He's the only reason you're alive and he can kill you at any moment by rescinding his protection. He never even floats with as a possibility to you though.
It's unfortunate that siding with him shafts Lae'zel.
Last edited by Forblaze; 01/09/23 12:44 PM.
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