Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback The issue with Shove

Shove is an interesting mechanic in BG3, but also extremely powerful.

In way too many occasions in the game, shove becomes a "Save or Die" spell. All you need is a nearby chasm - but there's a fairly big amount of chasms in the game. In fact, around many bigger chasms, you'll find monsters and enemies that have high strength and/or abilities to shove you into a chasm. But even if you dodge a minotaur who's bull rushing you, they don't charge into the chasm. Why? Because deciding an encounter in a strategic rpg with 1 dice roll is rather silly.

There's a level 9 spell in D&D called "Power Word Kill". It has gone through several iterations over the years, but in D&D5, you point at someone, and if they have 100 hit points or less, they die. If they have more than 100 hit points, nothing happens. There's a reason why you have to be a level 17 spellcaster to have this spell: It's powerful, and at level 17 most enemies easily have more than 100 hit points, so it ends up not being as powerful anyway.

Is it awesome to shove enemies into a nearby chasm? If you don't care about their loot, sure. Is it too powerful? Yeah, probably.

You might argue that the very natural conclusion of being pushed into a chasm is death, and I would entirely agree. I would also argue that picking up an enemy and throwing them into a chasm would result in their death. My barbarian friend and I tried this. The game didn't allow the picked up enemy to be thrown into a chasm. Probably because it would be too powerful. In the end, it's a game, and abstract concepts like someone's "life force" is simplified into hit points, so even if you slash your Greataxe at someone's neck, they don't necessarily just get beheaded and die instantly (unless you deal more damage than the entirety of their hit points, in which case a beheading could absolutely be the outcome)


First of all I would suggest removing the option shoving someone into a chasm. If you do think it's a central part to the game, at least give the entity being shoved a DC10 Dexterity saving throw (this could represent something like catching the ledge). Give advantage to anyone who's under the effect of Feather Fall (after all, it's easier to react to the situation if you're floating). I don't know how the shove affects anyone with Fly, but obviously anyone who can fly can just fly back up. Anyone with Misty Step should probably get the opportunity to teleport back up, and I'm sure there's plenty other spells and abilities that should save you as well.

At the very least I would suggest a checkbox in the options to add/remove chasm-shoving.

The problem is not that you can shove enemies into a chasm.

The problem is:
- Shoving distance is too large, it should be 5ft/1,5m
- shove is a bonus action, it should be part of the attack action (If you have more than one attack you can shove several times or shove+attack)


Its interesting you cannot throw enemies into a chasm (I have not tried this so far)
You can throw corpses of enemies into a chasm (from my inventory, I was hiding dead enemies so that patrolling enemies do not find their corpses)

That's actually hilarious xD

That's the first actual good suggestion I've read on the forums regarding possible shove adjustment that would address a core issue with it being a cheap one-shot. If it was just restricted to pushing someone out of heightened tactical positions onto ground level while also taking some damage, then it'd be so fine. No more insta-death, no more losing loot. It would actually have a tactical purpose that feels meaningful without being too overpowered.


And the situations as shown in the video above would no longer be happening then where everyone is trying to shove each other into one-shot chasms and lavas. If shove was simply used a zoning ability to keep others out of tactical positions, it would massively improve the AI personality and feeling of combat.

I don't see an issue with the mechanic. If the enemies use it too often on lower difficulties it's a tuning issue. With players you lose out on loot, and you risk getting shoved off yourself. (And that's assuming the enemy isn't too heavy/can't fly and that you have enough athletics, and don't get smashed by attacks of opportunity trying to position yourself.) Bosses can be made immune to shove (and they often are)

I've killed late game bosses with this ability. Given HP isn't blood and how swingy it is in both directions and how many damn chasms are in the game I feel like HP could be used as a buffer against this. Otherwise at least limit the shove action so this isn't so rampant.

+1 Maybe it should be a reaction? This would add some tactical thinking: do I use my reaction for [other ability] or do I save it in case I get shoved? If it becomes a reaction, I'd suggest that an edge-hanging character be un-shovable until their turn so that the enemy can't just shove them again.

What, have anyone who is shoved into a chasm reappear (like flying/swimming creatures do when shoved into a pit/water) but lose 30 HP? ...I don't hate it. It's a band-aid to the problem, sure, but it would add balance to shoving while still allowing those players who love shoving to keep their fun.

Just. Use. D&D Rules.

I've watched a lot of bg3 streams with people talking about how shove is incredibly fun in the game.

Personally, it doesn't bother me. I enjoy it, although I don't use it all that often. Rarely, in fact, come to think of it.

Anyway. I think the idea that shove needs to change isn't a concern shared by the masses. I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting something else. I just think there's a point where you have to concede that your opinion on the subject isn't reflecting the general pulse.

Shove can be fun, but it is alsoincredibly cheesy and iften feels cheesy. And, Larisn knows this hence why they give many enemies way to block it. At least make it like dnd. This us also why an actual dnd core rules would be awesome additional optional setting. Imagine that, the option to play legit dnd rules in a dnd game. PERISH THE THOUGHT!

If that happens, a D&D 5e RAW-ish toggle, it will come from the modding community. Larian may "adopt" a mod that has been proven to run relatively bug-free into a future Patch or DLC, but they've made it very clear throughout the EA process that adjusting their game to be more in step with 5e rules is not even on their list of things to do.

Larian's version of Shove is broken and absolutely dictates save-scumming at times. With how long the loading screens are, that's extremely disappointing. Anecdotally, on my first play through, where I am just about to finish Act 2, I've only had anyone in my party use Shove twice, and the number of enemies that have successfully Shoved any party member has got to be five or less. Does the game adjust itself to the player's playstyle? What I mean is, is it possible that the game monitors how often or little a player uses Shove and moderates itself accordingly?

I ask for a rather intriguing reason that must be spoiler hidden due to game specifics.

Since that's the case I can't imagine that the game is actually monitoring and self-adjusting, even so, I rarely if ever use Shove, and so far my enemies have basically followed suit. Not sure if there's a correlation there or not.

Edit: Wanted to clarify that "first play through" meant first play through since full release. I played through a few times during EA, but the game has changed quite a bit since then.

Don't forget to cantrip clean any blood stains while hiding bodies.

We've had countless discussions about Shove over the years, but I'll suggest that now we stick with adding to the post-release thread over at https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=889693.

Folk should feel free to add their thoughts there, or PM me if you'd like me to move anything from here to there.

But I'll lock this thread to help cut down on duplicate discussion.