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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2023
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I tend to disagree with Vlad about the Sharran character. Because the Viconia mentioned in Vlad's text is only there in case she is the romance partner of the PC in BG2. And that Viconia dies afterwards. She was my favorite character in that game, and it was one of the few moments I really got emotional in a video game when I read the ending of that story. That's why I still remember it. The "official" Viconia though, the one which survives is evil. Her story afterwards is pretty much what happens in the game. I also don't think there is anything grey about Shar which needs a deeply philosophical debate. At least not how Shar is presented in the game. Nor in most of the officail DnD products. That does feel more like a headcanon.
I do agree though it would have been best to leave Viconia out of the game. It just annoys people who liked her in their playthrough in the previous games, and her being there doesn't really serve a purpose. It doesn't make what happened to Shadowheart any different. It felt like a really unnecessary cameo. But the original Viconia, the one which wasn't changed because of a relationship with a good/neutral PC was an evil character, and nothing what is shown in BG3 seems out of character to me at least. Even a non-romanced Viconia stands by the PC's side and is willing to take a geas for them in Suldanesselar just to help them defeat Irenicus. Iirc, she also feels bad if you abandon Imoen when you meet her again at Spellhold. I just feel like Viconia and Sarevok were both boiled down to stupid!evil in BG3, whereas other characters like the Origins got to have nuance. Imagine if in a decade or so another game is made and Shadowheart is the new child-abusing Sharran villain for players to kill. At this point, it would be totally in line with what WotC does to redeemable characters. Viconia, Sarevok, Aribeth . . . always the same pattern . Also, to everyone, I greatly apologize for lacking a spoiler tag on my earlier post, that was quite stupid of me.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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So, I met the unplaiable pair. In all I agree with the criticism. I wasn't never too invested in either of the characters, so I am not too offended, but they did feel to me like different NPCs wearing familiar faces (or rather names - is it just me, or does male's helmet seem strangely small?) They don't feel like they follow trajectory that my playthroughs put them through, though I am unfamiliar with cannon - I have seen Abdel Adrian being mentioned in some texts, so I assume they went with that more or less. Shame as until act3 I felt they were doing well playing ambigiously. They so deftly manouvered around Jaheira's history, I feel it is shame they weren't quite as clever with those two. It is also unfortunate, that beside fanservice they never had a business of being there - and I am not sure how many fans will be thrilled by their portrayal. And speaking of continuity - I just run into this odd thing, when talking to Volo: ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/JOLlDJd.png) Sarevok didn't change into the slayer - it was Gorion's Ward/Irenicus' thing.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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As someone who never played BG 1 or 2, I only know about the characters from watching let’s play, reading wiki and a few youtube videos. However, it seems like WOTC (the shitheads at the top mostly) really likes messing with playerbase. The OGL fiasco and how customers are obstacle between top brass and their money come to mind. I don’t know how much pull does WOTC have, but based on some of the things I saw in full release, more than they ought to. Frankly enough, there really should have been a close beta for early backers with NDA attached to it. That way Larian could get some proper feedback, especially act 3. Instead, we find out about the mess that is ACT 3 and all we can do is voice our opinions here. So, here is mine. If you can't make a character work don’t shove them down our throats for nostalgia and especially don’t bring characters, so that you can point to them and tell: "Look Guys, it's X from BG 1 or 2!" Personally I think are fine. However both could be removed from the game without any issues and replaced with someone fresh or better written.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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I have seen both of them now and for the playable pair, I think they are alright, although I would have liked both to return earlier, preferably Act 1, it would just give more time to try them out. By the time you reach Act 3 you likely have a preferred set of characters.
The two unplayable ones, yeah I agree. Now I do not know what their canon ending is, but I would assume that most players probably took a somewhat good route. If you have done that with those two characters then you will likely be disappointed, as it will just be a step back, just like having them as companions did not matter. Even when embracing the evil path you could have just replaced them both as Mr. Evil Guy and beyond the initial "that is the dude from the other game!", you would not have missed much.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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Since I had never had a strong opinion about the two unplayable ones, I don't care that much Viconia always stayed evil in my playthroughs, so her becoming the leader of the Shar temple in BG makes sense in my canon. Sarevok I mostly ignored, so that is not all that contradictory either I get that people are upset though if that are characters, they cared about, the same as with Dragon Age, when you play a bloodmage Hawke and in Inquisition NPC Hawke is all against bloodmagic, doesn't make sense. Maybe there should be less fanservice and old characters should stay in their games. Yes, it worked well with the playable characters and I'm so happy about , but they should have stopped it there.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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As someone who never played BG1-2.
I thought Jaheira was really well done.
I never got the hype about Minsc anyway, guy who acts like a Barbarian but is actually a Ranger that has a hamster? Ok?
Viconia had an impact but felt a bit pointless, could easily just have been someone else. And if they missed the mark on her character like some people here are pointing out, then there is nothing more annoying than that for fans, so maybe they should change it.
Never met Sarevok because of a bug or something, act 3 things... But feels like this might also have been a needless addition.
Last edited by Surge90sf; 15/09/23 11:31 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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As someone who never played BG1-2.
I thought Jaheira was really well done.
I never got the hype about Minsc anyway, guy who acts like a Barbarian but is actually a Ranger that has a hamster? Ok?
Viconia had an impact but felt a bit pointless, could easily just have been someone else. And if they missed the mark on her character like some people here are pointing out, then there is nothing more annoying than that for fans, so maybe they should change it.
Never met Sarevok because of a bug or something, act 3 things... But feels like this might also have been a needless addition. Berserker was in 2e a subclass of ranger - that is why Minsc behaves liek one. He should have been a barbarian berserker in this game imo. As for Vicki and Sarevok: It depends on how you played BG1&2. I never romanced Viconia, so she stayed evil in my playthrough - for me, her character in BG3 fits, but if you romanced her and helped her better her ways, it's not a fit. Same with Sarevok really - BG3 Sarevok fits with me, but not some others, who invested a lot in getting him good aligned and seeing the evil of his way.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2020
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So I actually agree with the OP. Out of all the returning characters Jaheira is so damn well done.
Okay, on my 1st run I played basic Tav and didn't really take her much with me, only for her quest and to recruit Minsc, but she was likable.
On my 2nd, Dark Urge run my plan from the get-go was to get both Jaheira and Minsc asap just to drag them around together with my LI (Astarion). And oh my god, Jaheira is fantastic! Durge also brings all of the fantastic writing out of her as well! She's basically acting as the equivalent of Gorion to Gorion's ward. She's the mother figure Durge (if you keep on resisting Bhaal of course) never had! Beautiful relationship!
Minsc VA did a good job, but like OP said - took a little bit to get used to. Matt Mercer's version of Minsc seems a lot less... chaotically unhinged than Jim Cummings'. But still, aside from somehow getting Jim, I can't really imagine anyone else but Matt pulling this off.
Writing wise it's really hard to mess Minsc up as well, so there is that. BUTT KICKING FOR GOODNESS! Now as to the other 2... Viconia's entire redemption arc hinges on Gorion's ward romancing her. You didn't romance her? She remains a neutral evil Sharran, if somehow softened a little bit. And yes, i took her on my neutral aligned BG1/2 runs. If I decide to replay BG1/2 one of these days I should finally swallow my pride (just like I did with Morrigan's romance in DAO) and make a male Gorion's ward to actually experience the romance everyone raves about. Also, iirc if you played an elf Viconia would automatically reject your advances, no? She only accepted humans and half-elves in the originals iirc.
Anyway, as to Sarevok... I really cannot fathom why WotC insists on him being immortal and regressed back to worshiping daddy dearest... Sarevok's redemption arc was the best damn thing of ToB! You basically said everything there is to be said about how Sarevok's character got ruined!
Like damn, I remember crying like a little baby when Sarevok's ending slide rolled around and how he did his best to atone for his misdeeds by wandering around aimlessly, righting wrongs, conquering towns ruled by tyrants just to disappear after, the realization of who his true love had been all along - Tamoko (who died over the course of BG1), only to carry her remains to her homeland, properly bury her and disappear never to be seen again.
And to turn him into a monster who's into incest... I can't. I just can't! But again, I don't know who's more to blame for these problems, WotC or Larian?
Last edited by Nicottia; 21/09/23 06:03 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Just chiming in to concur with the prevailing opinion on 3's returning characters: Jaheira? Her portrayal was delightful; I could tell the writers really got her. Couldn't have asked for a more loving and faithful representation of the character. Minsc? An only slightly less glowing review -- it's Minsc, you know? Hard to get that guy wrong. But the other two familiar faces, those whose alignments were a bit more fluid? After how strong Jaheira and Minsc's portrayals were, I wasn't prepared for how unsatisfactory, frustrating, and reductive theirs would be. It stung to see characters every bit as iconic stripped of their complexities and used as cheap enemy fodder. Sarevok in particular was so exciting a character in Throne of Bhaal that I was left perplexed by the decision to downplay, ignore, and outright retcon his development across that game, whether redeemed or not. To say nothing of the sheer, glaring inconsistency of it all. How does a guy who explicitly lost his Bhaalspawn essence go on to sire a family of Bhaalspawn? Why is he still enthralled by the dark urge when his freedom from it was among the first things he noticed upon resurrection? From whence did this newfound Bhaalist zealotry and "murder worship" even spring? He never gave a damn about daddy's religion, he was in it purely for power, he never killed without purpose. Bringing Sarevok back as a villain was bad enough, but as a depraved, incestuous, pathetic relic of an evil heritage that was no longer his anyway? What an utter disservice to the character. He could, and should, have been so much more.
Much the same applies to Vicky, but if nothing else, her faith in Shar isn't without foundation and the player can at least choose to spare her. (Why they'd ever do so when she comes off as such a shallow, cruel, and abusive monster is another matter, but the chance to evade literal character assassination is greater grace than Sarevok got.) His was a fundamental mischaracterisation so staggering that I, like you, expected him to morph into a doppelganger upon death. But no, I guess that's just the sum of his character in this new canon: wasted potential, a stain on the floor. A massive disservice to what was, by ToB's end, a nuanced and engaging character who'd have been awesome to revisit in a story more faithful to what came before. It blows my mind that the same writers behind 3's excellent take on Jaheira would do her two most compelling contemporaries that dirty. I'm not so delusional as to hope for a do-over in the inevitable enhanced edition, but this whole thing was a crude, almost malicious gash on an otherwise beautifully nostalgic painting and I'm glad to know I'm far from alone in my eleventh hour disappointment.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jan 2021
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Now as to the other 2... Viconia's entire redemption arc hinges on Gorion's ward romancing her. You didn't romance her? She remains a neutral evil Sharran, if somehow softened a little bit. And yes, i took her on my neutral aligned BG1/2 runs. If I decide to replay BG1/2 one of these days I should finally swallow my pride (just like I did with Morrigan's romance in DAO) and make a male Gorion's ward to actually experience the romance everyone raves about. Also, iirc if you played an elf Viconia would automatically reject your advances, no? She only accepted humans and half-elves in the originals iirc.
In regards to the first of those two: I don't think it really does hinge on romance. I always took Vic with me with my female Bhaalspawn playthroughs, and her character trajectory doesn't change much. She never struck me much as an actively cruel, vengeful, malicious etc character, unlike what you could say with characters like Korgan. Her faith was also very personal to her-she'll call you out for 'foolish' actions or advise you on certain courses of actions, but she never *preaches* her faith to you. I always got the feeling that her faith in Shar is more akin to the people who flock to Shar for solace and to forget their suffering rather than the fanatical sort of cult activitywe see it portrayed as in BG III.
Her unromanced ending has her doing good stuff as well. She adventures with Drizzt and fights a cult/criminal organization. She helps the surface elves of Suldanasser (sp)- and the queen (irenicus's ex from the second game) and her people honor her and accepts her among them as one of their own. It's true she starts and enclave in waterdeep, but it's clear she doesn't belong among them since they turn on her and it seems like it's left an open question whether she belongs among Shar's faithful at all, since she loses her favor in the goddess's eyes for killing herfollowers that turned on her. But again, I don't know who's more to blame for these problems, WotC or Larian? My feeling is that WoTC gave them a lot of leeway with the 'canon' of the game. There was even a statement back when WoTC had that whole 'canon' controversy where they called out the novels, video games, and IIRC BG III specifically as not being beholden to sticking to the same canon. I don't think WOTC particularly cared about those characters or gave specific dictates that required them to be written so.....poorly. Much the same applies to Vicky, but if nothing else, her faith in Shar isn't without foundation and the player can at least choose to spare her. (Why they'd ever do so when she comes off as such a shallow, cruel, and abusive monster is another matter, but the chance to evade literal character assassination is greater grace than Sarevok got.) His was a fundamental mischaracterisation so staggering that I, like you, expected him to morph into a doppelganger upon death. But no, I guess that's just the sum of his character in this new canon: wasted potential, a stain on the floor. A massive disservice to what was, by ToB's end, a nuanced and engaging character who'd have been awesome to revisit in a story more faithful to what came before.[/spoiler] Honestly, I think the scene where you spare/kill her was setup with the writing on purpose to make vic as dislikeable as possible deliberately to make the option to kill her more cathartic and appealing even to good characters. Think about it-she's just gone on and on with her evil monologue wallowing in just how much she is devoted to evil and child abuse...shadowheart here may very well be your Love interest...it's set up to be more than a subtle nudge to take revenge on the lifelong tormentor of their loved one ( or close ally you have been playing alongside the entire game with, at the very least) As for the second character I'm hearing from some people they made Sarevok's granddaughter Orin the product of incest. That is so messed up. COmbined with how they rewrote his ending to be a one-note fanatic whose every other word is 'blood' or 'slaughter' and is described multiple times by both good and evil characters in terms of being a 'failure' and I'm finding it actively hard to believe that someone or someones in charge of the writing actively hated these two characters.
Last edited by Leucrotta; 25/09/23 06:20 PM.
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