Originally Posted by Zenith
Originally Posted by Imora DalSyn
Problem is, scrolls serve two purposes. They makes wizard's spellbook, and they make up for not having a divine or arcane caster. Just like how everyone can try to pick locks.


Meanwhile casters can't benefit from venoms, poisons, or oils, or special arrows unless they are elves. Scrolls are supposed to be caster consumables to balance against melee advantage, but the fact is they are accessible to melee and further tilt the balance in favor of martial classes. Then there's the fact haste effects double the amount of extra attacks on martials, which shouldn't be happening. They should get a single extra attack, and that's it.

I also want to bring in intra-caster balance.

Warlock is absolute garbage compared to sorc and wizard. At lv12 I have 3 measly spell slots and they are capped at lv5 spells. Warlock is also the only caster in the wiz/sorc/warlock category that does not learn powerful lv6 spells like Chain Lightning or Disintegrate. For some reason they don't get Dethrone either (and neither do Spore druids, so the thematically necromantic/summoner casters are really gimped).

The perks warlocks get while leveling are also as mediocre as they can get. A once per long rest cast of lv2-lv3 spells is nothing to write home about, and short rests restoring warlock spell slots means absolutely nothing because sorc and wizard sit at like 4 lv4 spells slots, 3 lv5 spell slots, and 1 lv6 spell slot. BUT, because of the arcane battery legendary staff effect, a wizard/sorc can cast a lv6 chain lightning twice per long rest.

And the fact is, short rests are kind of obsolete past Act 1 because you get so much food from crate and exploration that by the end of Act 3 I had enough food in my camp to have like 20-30 long rests remaining by the end of the game if not more. Sorcs and wizards hardly pay a cost for their far more expnaisve spell slots because long rests are so accessible and cost free, which is fine because I don't think casters should be this limited while melee barely need any recharging and do so damage with so little resource cost.

One would think they would balance the warlock spell damage with maybe having powerful summons, but summons in this game are terrible outside the lv6 spell slot myrmidons. Their damage and attack rolls don't scale with yours, so their hit rates stay static at like 65-70% regardless of what gear and attack roll bonuses you acquire. Their damage is also unremarkable.

Even spell balance is out of whack. Disintegrate has abysmal save rates for 50-100 damage, does no damage if the save goes through; meanwhile chain lightning is not single target, does almost the same damage, and chains to three other targets. Blight, Circle of Death, Sun Beam, and the spore spells do abysmal damage. Dethrone has the same damage roll as Chain lightning, but is only single target and no caster besides wizard can learn it via scroll.

As it is, if you're a caster who can't learn chain lightning or be a wizard abusing magic missiles/Art of War with Dribble gloves extra 1d8 dice effect per missile, the damage of your other spells falls off a cliff in scaling for Act 3, while melee are doing the same or more damage as your Blight or Call Lightning spells while getting to attack 2-4 times per turn.

Casters are not in a good place in this game, especially warlock/druid, since at least cleric is a support powerhouse with Bless and Channel Divinity Life Domain.

Sorc and Wizard are also the only casters who have tools to remove friendly fire from aoe spells, which is huge in this game as many of the fights you want to use aoe is to save ally NPC's like the Gondians or the Harpers in Moonrise.

I agree with some of this - but note that Warlocks aren't meant to be competitive as pure Spellcasters with Wizards/Sorcerers/Clerics/Druids/Bards. They don't get L6-9 spells - except through their Arcanums. They're a hybrid class and you can create some truly insane hybrids e.g. Warlock 5 / Paladin 5 / Fighter 2 (as well as the Coffeelock that should be possible but is currently bugged). Pure caster warlocks aren't really great without the Genie subclass.

I'd also like to move the discussion away from scrolls because I strongly suspect Larian won't change that - as I mentioned, its very much against their usual game design to do something like that even though it needs to happen for balance - I suspect mods will be required for this one.

To the other poster who said 'This isn't 5E RAW' - Note that many of things I'm suggesting have nothing to do with 5E RAW. I'm proposing the addition of a legendary item to allow multiple concentration spells (something I would never allow on tabletop as a DM). I'm also proposing things like bonus action telekinesis to make the spell actually worth something as a 5th level slot.

I'm interested in further discussions along these lines - as well as how to get Larian to fix the bugs with CC spells. I feel a pragmatic way to balance casters right now is not to try and balance their damage vs martials - but to make them the crowd control monsters they should be.

Last edited by agad; 03/09/23 11:10 AM.