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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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Lol, I seriously don't think his name is that much of an issue, when there are such huge plotholes in place. Please Larian, fix the plotholes, don't waste time on giving the guy a new name.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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Sure  I just occurred to me that Orpheus has an Orphic aura. They should have made him a bard because, like the original, he is so inspiring.
Oh, oh, oh! And we are talking to Orpheus on the body of a giant, dead god and this invokes the myth of the Orphic tale of the fall of the titans! And the Emperor, like the titans of old, wants to eat Orpheus!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_(religion)
The more I think about it the more I like the name. Wonder how many of the parallels were intentional?
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member
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OP
member
Joined: Oct 2020
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Here's an interesting tidbit in light of the rewrites, particularly in regards to Daisy. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/0pzr21b.png) A choice to embrace the Absolute represented by the Absolute's icon, and a choice to resist. Datamining indicated that you would two entities in your head. One was suspected to be Orpheus. The choice to resist the Absolute is represented by a lyre. In Greek mythology, Orpheus had a lyre. edit: Well, to be technical, that's a harp -- but Orpheus' lyre is sometimes referred to as a harp. It could also refer to the Harpers, however.
Last edited by Milkfred; 02/09/23 12:40 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: Jan 2021
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edit: Well, to be technical, that's a harp -- but Orpheus' lyre is sometimes referred to as a harp. It could also refer to the Harpers, however. Yep, I was about to comment this a split second before you edited your comment. That is just the Harpers symbol, has nothing to do with Orpheus. Maybe his name made more sense in the old story with the OG Daisy, who knows. Perhaps Orpheus was the one originally going to Hell to rescue us. We were the Eurydice stand-in.
- Firm believer in Mindflayer supremacy -
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I think the biggest problem with the Character of The Emperor lies within how freeing Orpheus is handled.
As i understand, the various interactions you have with him differ in regards to what information he gives to the player, depending on wether you are trustful of him or if you are dismissve or outright hostile to him, like calling him a monster. But there is no reactivity to any of this in the finale. When compared to most of the games major decisions and dialogues, that there is no way to try to persuade The Emperor, especially when there is mutual trust in one anothers intentions, is going against one of the core elements of the game, that YOUR choices matter. I should be able to remind him of my reactions to reveals such as Ansurs death by Baldurans hands, of him dominating Belmane and (most likely) causing her strokes, him lying to you, not sharing vital information. If you, despite all that, then still actively support him in his plan, why cant he fathom the idea that he should put his trust into me?
It is even more baffling how binary this whole sequence is, when considering the prominent use of "Dialogue-Boss-Fights", especially in Act 2. I was honestly expecting for there to be half a dozen skill checks, covering various skills and saves, displaying a kind of psychic struggle between your conjoined minds. The Emperor would have been the perfect opportunity for one last major Dialogue-Boss that culminates in him trusting your judgement, ultimately saving Orpheus and all of your Companions, since someone apparantly has to become a Mindflayer, aswell as The Emperor. And if you fail, or if you were never in a relation of trust to begin with, he doesnt believe you can convince Orpheus to spare him, so the only possible means of survival is joining the Netherbrain.
I was really torn by this character and some related story decisions, but in general I do like The Emperor. I just think that the conclusion is a giant missed opportunity, given all that that they have done in regards to reactivity and decision making prior to this.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Considering that both Daisy and Orpheus are in the artbook and emperor is not its obvious that he was a late rewrite of the main story and a badly done one.
The emperor is only there to validate the player. If the player trusts him he is trustworthy. If not, then not.
This is especially switches his aporoach to the emperor which also causes the emperor to do a 180.
It also shows that nothing you say to him matters as in the next meeting everything that happened before is forgotten.
It seems that about 1 year ago someone decided to remove all consequences from the game. So the Daisy - Orpheus dynamic got hastily rewritten to only Emperor and also tadpoles were made into pure powerups.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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For the Orpheus/Emperor decision to be truly reactive, instead of a "dialogue battle" dice roll, shouldn't the game actually track if you ever trusted him or not ?
There's so many things in the story you can do against his advisement and expressing your distrust especially for the completionist. Its a wonder he doesn't have a approval bar, each one should count.
Fall short, he has not reason to trust you. Where a more sane schemer would just let the absolute take you.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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In many dialogues throughout the game, you get a bonus like +x, advantage or even forgoing a single check entirely, when the player has a made a certain decision, or knows a particular piece of information, from reading or another dialogue, etc.
This system already exists, but isn't incorporated into this at all.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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In many dialogues throughout the game, you get a bonus like +x, advantage or even forgoing a single check entirely, when the player has a made a certain decision, or knows a particular piece of information, from reading or another dialogue, etc.
This system already exists, but isn't incorporated into this at all. There are two problems here: 1. The whole scene and dialogue before and after freeing Orpheus does not make sense:
- The 180° of the Emperor never makes sense, no matter what your relationship with him was up until that point. The Emperor should fight the PC to the death if he thinks freeing Orpheus would kill him, or trust the PC if the relationship was good, allowing Orpheus to be freed. It makes no sense for the Emperor to become a thrall of the Netherbrain under any circumstance. Enthrallment was the ONE thing that the Emperor consistently did NOT want.
- Orpheus claiming his honor guard could have freed him. This is just not true. They didn't have the Oprhic Hammer, and even if somehow they didn't need the Hammer, his honor guard was imprisoned together with Oprheus by Vlaakith I (NOT the Lich Queen) over 1.000 years ago. If they could have freed him, why didn't they do it? The writing is all ove rthe place. The peoplewho wrote the Emperor-Orpheus portion of the game obviously have never spoken to the writers of Lae'Zel. It's a total contradiction.
- Orpheus turns into a MIndflayer without being tadpoled. 2. The game railroads the player in a linear ending sequence, where choices don't matter anymore. Choices really had visible consequences up until the player decides to face the Netherbrain. From there on out, the game could have basically a cutscene.
Last edited by SiriusVI; 02/09/23 12:29 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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There are two problems here: 1. The whole scene and dialogue before and after freeing Orpheus does not make sense:
- The 180° of the Emperor never makes sense, no matter what your relationship with him was up until that point. The Emperor should fight the PC to the death if he thinks freeing Orpheus would kill him, or trust the PC if the relationship was good, allowing Orpheus to be freed. It makes no sense for the Emperor to become a thrall of the Netherbrain under any circumstance. Enthrallment was the ONE thing that the Emperor consistently did NOT want.
- Orpheus claiming his honor guard could have freed him. This is just not true. They didn't have the Oprhic Hammer, and even if somehow they didn't need the Hammer, his honor guard was imprisoned together with Oprheus by Vlaakith I (NOT the Lich Queen) over 1.000 years ago. If they could have freed him, why didn't they do it? The writing is all ove rthe place. The peoplewho wrote the Emperor-Orpheus portion of the game obviously have never spoken to the writers of Lae'Zel. It's a total contradiction.
- Orpheus turns into a MIndflayer without being tadpoled. 2. The game railroads the player in a linear ending sequence, where choices don't matter anymore. Choices really had visible consequences up until the player decides to face the Netherbrain. From there on out, the game could have basically a cutscene. I fully agree, i just tried to outline a possible way to salvage what is there to begin with. Realistically, with all the other issues the story has in its final parts, it would require a complete Rework of the Emperor and the Dream Guardian, along with the ending itself.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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I fully agree, i just tried to outline a possible way to salvage what is there to begin with. [spoiler]Realistically, with all the other issues the story has in its final parts, it would require a complete Rework of the Emperor and the Dream Guardian, along with the ending itself. Given the fact that the Emperor is already the product of a late revision and the game is out of the bag now another rework like that seems extremely unlikely. They'll probably tweak the ending a bit and that's it.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Although im a rather pessimistic person, Larian has earned the benefit of the doubt, given their trackrecord of post launch updates in the Divinity Series. Best we can do is provide ideas and feedback that may influence their decision making going forward.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Although im a rather pessimistic person, Larian has earned the benefit of the doubt, given their trackrecord of post launch updates in the Divinity Series. Best we can do is provide ideas and feedback that may influence their decision making going forward. Did they? Other games from them like dragon commander did not receive extensive post game support and attention and during the marketing phase Laruan "misrepresented" quite a bit about the game like constantly mentioning the upper city or suggesting that there are consequences fir tadpole use. They imo have not earned any more trust than Bethesda or Ubisoft
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Although im a rather pessimistic person, Larian has earned the benefit of the doubt, given their trackrecord of post launch updates in the Divinity Series. Best we can do is provide ideas and feedback that may influence their decision making going forward. I'm just trying to give a realistic assessment here. We are a minority and probably not a very loud one at that. Most of the big feedback about the ending points out a lack of closure, ending slides, missing companion stuff etc. and don't take as much issue with the content of the ending, that is to say the story per se. How many people truly have a big problem with the Emperor as a character? Try to conceptualise that and weigh it against the effort of rewriting and rerecording countless lines for a major character that appears in all 3 acts. I want the story of the game to be better as much as anyone else here but when has a released game actually been rewritten in that way? Best thing you can hope for is some kind of DLC/expansion that will recontextualise some things and give more depth to what is already there. But even that isn't something Larian has done in the past.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Although im a rather pessimistic person, Larian has earned the benefit of the doubt, given their trackrecord of post launch updates in the Divinity Series. Best we can do is provide ideas and feedback that may influence their decision making going forward. Did they? Other games from them like dragon commander did not receive extensive post game support and attention and during the marketing phase Laruan "misrepresented" quite a bit about the game like constantly mentioning the upper city or suggesting that there are consequences fir tadpole use. They imo have not earned any more trust than Bethesda or Ubisoft They have not earned the trust or at least have not fully earned the trust of anyone who isn't a fanboy. But they did do one thing right and that thing is marketing. Despite being your average RPG with the same issues other games have, BG3 is being treated as the next coming of Jesus. (don't you dare disagree on reddit or you'll be called a toxic hater lol) Onto the Diasy/Emperor thing, I was rather disappointed with the changes and would've preferred if they kept it as it was in EA. I want the story of the game to be better as much as anyone else here but when has a released game actually been rewritten in that way? Never and that's why I don't expect much. Doesn't mean that certain improvements to the story wouldn't help.
Last edited by Rotsen; 02/09/23 03:53 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I confess that I assumed the name Orpheus was a nod to Sandman. The main character is often called Orpheus and he's very closely tied to dreams.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Both Divinity Original Sin games received extensive reworks of their latter acts, but as i said, I am skeptical at best.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Both Divinity Original Sin games received extensive reworks of their latter acts, but as i said, I am skeptical at best. I don't remember them changing much about DOS2's story with the definitive edition. Maybe I'm wrong.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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The binary choice with the Emperor, where a certain hammer is involved, is the dumbest moment of this game. It's that bad that I have hope it will be fixed. It's especially glaring since BG3 has a fairly well crafted story.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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The binary choice with the Emperor, where a certain hammer is involved, is the dumbest moment of this game. It's that bad that I have hope it will be fixed. It's especially glaring since BG3 has a fairly well crafted story. Yes, I think so, too. Usually I'm not super sensitive to smaller narrative inconsistencies. I can suspend my disbelieve quite successfully. But this whole scene involving a certain hammer (lol) was so stupid and frankly narratively wrong (like there are outright objective falsehoods) that it immediately broke any kind of immersion. Really bad at such a crucial moment in the game.
Last edited by SiriusVI; 02/09/23 07:41 PM.
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