Monks and paladins both do fine. There is more than enough damage from a lot of classes in this game. "Can kill any boss in two turns, alone", enough damage. I don't know how ranger does, nor a pure Wizard. The numbers don't really matter when everything just dies in two turns
Wizard does fine with the Ramazith tower scrolls and clown gloves. Warlock with magic missiles works and has an EB build that's decent.
It's druid, ranger, and bard that are in the gutter doing less than half the damage. Cleric too, but that's understandable because cleric buffs are super busted and neither druid or bard compete with cleric buffs, so they're just gimped clerics.
Originally Posted by geala
The problem is not the Fighter but the insane gadget and item policy of Larian, coupled with some action design decisions (like Haste). Fighter would be problematic in aoe tasks for example, if there weren't the ridiculous magical arrows all around.
I wonder however why the "casters are sooo bad" whiners hint to the many unfair advantages for melees but forget that lots of mobs are resistant to all physical damage, and the effects of Wet. Partial bias, maybe.
Because enemies are also resistant to magic, and missing a lv6 spell/doing half the damage on a save or getting counterspelled feels so much worse than a martial class who just gets to autoattack again the next turn.
I said I'm done with druids. But. I might just pick one up, turn them into an enlarged owlbear, and see how many instakill opportunities the game gives people. A funnier second run than bonking everything mildly horny with a stick if nothing else
I mean, you can also just stack explosive barrels in stealth and blow everyone up, doesn't make it efficient. And you'll spend your entire playthrough losing dialogue to companions because Larian thought it was a great idea to prevent druids from being engaged in dialogue while wildshaped or at least have them come out of form to be addressed in cutscenes.
Monks and paladins both do fine. There is more than enough damage from a lot of classes in this game. "Can kill any boss in two turns, alone", enough damage. I don't know how ranger does, nor a pure Wizard. The numbers don't really matter when everything just dies in two turns
Wizard does fine with the Ramazith tower scrolls and clown gloves. Warlock with magic missiles works and has an EB build that's decent.
It's druid, ranger, and bard that are in the gutter doing less than half the damage. Cleric too, but that's understandable because cleric buffs are super busted and neither druid or bard compete with cleric buffs, so they're just gimped clerics.
Originally Posted by geala
The problem is not the Fighter but the insane gadget and item policy of Larian, coupled with some action design decisions (like Haste). Fighter would be problematic in aoe tasks for example, if there weren't the ridiculous magical arrows all around.
I wonder however why the "casters are sooo bad" whiners hint to the many unfair advantages for melees but forget that lots of mobs are resistant to all physical damage, and the effects of Wet. Partial bias, maybe.
Because enemies are also resistant to magic, and missing a lv6 spell/doing half the damage on a save or getting counterspelled feels so much worse than a martial class who just gets to autoattack again the next turn.
I said I'm done with druids. But. I might just pick one up, turn them into an enlarged owlbear, and see how many instakill opportunities the game gives people. A funnier second run than bonking everything mildly horny with a stick if nothing else
I mean, you can also just stack explosive barrels in stealth and blow everyone up, doesn't make it efficient. And you'll spend your entire playthrough losing dialogue to companions because Larian thought it was a great idea to prevent druids from being engaged in dialogue while wildshaped or at least have them come out of form to be addressed in cutscenes.
In that sort of playthrough, that's a feature, not a bug.
If you're in fact aware that Tav is not actual owlbear, the breach of information must be launched into the earth immediately
(But yeah, Larian hates druids. Which is why I swore off them. I figured that would happen when they didn't improve many spells in adaption to their style despite complaints)
Maybe it's just me, but having 2 dedicated Fighters in the team is the way to go. [...]
Hehe.
Even when I first read through the D&D5 PHB I suspected that Fighter is the OP class.
Everyone else got nerfed so drastically.
In AD&D, the formula for attacks was really complicated, but the bottom line was either you're a warrior class or you get just one attack. And fighters got a HALF attack more than other warriors, but only if they spent 5 points into a weapon type, which at the earliest could happen at level 9. And they then had to use exactly this weapon type in the main hand.
While in D&D3, warrior classes end up with 4 attacks from level 16 on, priests and tricksters end on 3, and even Mages get a second attack at level 11.
But now everyone else (Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, some Bards) gets at most a second attack at level 5, but only Fighter gets a third at 11 and a fourth at 20.
In D&D5, its not the Drow that rule supreme, its the Fighters.
Originally Posted by Dext. Paladin
[...] Fighter is good at Fighting and dealing damage. It's in the name. [...]
Um ...
Not. Really ?
In AD&D, they could get one half attack per round more than Ranger or Paladin (Barbarian wasnt in AD&D, BG2 imported that from D&D3).
In D&D3 they didnt get anything, just some feat for extra damage that only they could take. Got flooded in feats though. D&D3 has a lot more feats than D&D5 to begin with.
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
And if you cast haste on the fighter, they get DOUBLE the attacks.
Sooo ... regular Haste, thanks to how Haste is defined, is now effectively Improved Haste ? Funny.
Originally Posted by Mouthbreathereli
Personally I would take a barb over a fighter any day, I don't think there is anything fighters do that is better than a barbarian.
... ???
Talk about non sequitor ? Have you not actually read the thread ?
Also it would be very unbalanced if that was actually true.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
Fighters strengths should be somewhat countered by their lack of saving throw proficiencies and commonly low wis and int. So you can neutralize the fighter with enchantments and illusions, but I don't see that happening very often in the game. The AI priorities in terms of picking the most appropriate action and target to eliminate the largest threat seem a bit off.
In D&D5, every class gets one major (Dexterity, Constitution or Wisdom) and one minor (Strength, Intelligence or Charisma) saving throw.
Fighters get Strength and Constitution, as do Barbarian.
Ranger gets Strength and Dexterity.
Paladin gets Wisdom and Charisma. They are the only warrior who gets unusual saving throws. Basically they get resistance against spells and charm. Pretty thematic for them.
So no, Fighters get the same amount of saving throws. Sure, they dont get Wisdom, which is the best one. Of the tanks only Paladin gets Wisdom. But Fighter are not in any disadvantage compared to everybody else.
Intelligence didnt usually protect you from anything pre D&D5. Of course this changed a little. Especially here in BG3 with all the mind flayers.
Originally Posted by Silver/
I prefer Paladins as they can still hit very hard. A paladin can two shot bosses if you minmax. Which you shouldn't.
But I like minmaxing !
Originally Posted by Silver/
Hell, there's apparently a person who stacks crates, turns into an owlbear, and launches themselves at enemies for universal insta kills (3k damage). I don't think Larian intended that, but you can!
... they didnt ???
Not having played the other Larian games, but I thought such trickery is a Larian thing in general ?
Maybe it's just me, but having 2 dedicated Fighters in the team is the way to go. [...]
Hehe.
Even when I first read through the D&D5 PHB I suspected that Fighter is the OP class.
Everyone else got nerfed so drastically.
In AD&D, the formula for attacks was really complicated, but the bottom line was either you're a warrior class or you get just one attack. And fighters got a HALF attack more than other warriors, but only if they spent 5 points into a weapon type, which at the earliest could happen at level 9. And they then had to use exactly this weapon type in the main hand.
While in D&D3, warrior classes end up with 4 attacks from level 16 on, priests and tricksters end on 3, and even Mages get a second attack at level 11.
But now everyone else (Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, some Bards) gets at most a second attack at level 5, but only Fighter gets a third at 11 and a fourth at 20.
In D&D5, its not the Drow that rule supreme, its the Fighters.
Originally Posted by Dext. Paladin
[...] Fighter is good at Fighting and dealing damage. It's in the name. [...]
Um ...
Not. Really ?
In AD&D, they could get one half attack per round more than Ranger or Paladin (Barbarian wasnt in AD&D, BG2 imported that from D&D3).
In D&D3 they didnt get anything, just some feat for extra damage that only they could take. Got flooded in feats though. D&D3 has a lot more feats than D&D5 to begin with.
Originally Posted by DumbleDorf
And if you cast haste on the fighter, they get DOUBLE the attacks.
Sooo ... regular Haste, thanks to how Haste is defined, is now effectively Improved Haste ? Funny.
Originally Posted by Mouthbreathereli
Personally I would take a barb over a fighter any day, I don't think there is anything fighters do that is better than a barbarian.
... ???
Talk about non sequitor ? Have you not actually read the thread ?
Also it would be very unbalanced if that was actually true.
Originally Posted by papercut_ninja
Fighters strengths should be somewhat countered by their lack of saving throw proficiencies and commonly low wis and int. So you can neutralize the fighter with enchantments and illusions, but I don't see that happening very often in the game. The AI priorities in terms of picking the most appropriate action and target to eliminate the largest threat seem a bit off.
In D&D5, every class gets one major (Dexterity, Constitution or Wisdom) and one minor (Strength, Intelligence or Charisma) saving throw.
Fighters get Strength and Constitution, as do Barbarian.
Ranger gets Strength and Dexterity.
Paladin gets Wisdom and Charisma. They are the only warrior who gets unusual saving throws. Basically they get resistance against spells and charm. Pretty thematic for them.
So no, Fighters get the same amount of saving throws. Sure, they dont get Wisdom, which is the best one. Of the tanks only Paladin gets Wisdom. But Fighter are not in any disadvantage compared to everybody else.
Intelligence didnt usually protect you from anything pre D&D5. Of course this changed a little. Especially here in BG3 with all the mind flayers.
Originally Posted by Silver/
I prefer Paladins as they can still hit very hard. A paladin can two shot bosses if you minmax. Which you shouldn't.
But I like minmaxing !
Originally Posted by Silver/
Hell, there's apparently a person who stacks crates, turns into an owlbear, and launches themselves at enemies for universal insta kills (3k damage). I don't think Larian intended that, but you can!
... they didnt ???
Not having played the other Larian games, but I thought such trickery is a Larian thing in general ?
You think after not learning from the last time they created damage = weight, this can only be on purpose? That's alright, actually
Because I'll be mad if they "fix" it before I can have fun lmao
So not sure where else to put this, but I only just realized enhanced leap / featherfall / longstrider don't use spell slots, so all this time I didn't need the Athlete Feat on Laezel.
So now I have all of Polearm Master, Sentinel, Tavern Brawler, and one ASI plus the +2 str potion for 22 strength. EK for bound weapon and lightning jabber, and now its back to the lob lob lob lob build. Rather than the +1d4 thrown damage items, I use flat +2 melfic ring and purple gloves, the other ring is the 1d4 while concentrating on a spell - Dancing Light cantrip, protection from good and evil, blur, enlarge and magic weapon all work as such.
If only I could fit on War Caster to just keep magic weapon up meh.
You don't need featherfall, boots of Mystra from Arcane Tower in Underdark grant it, and it has no long/short rest cooldown attached to it and applies featherfall to the whole group. Speak with the Dead you get as a passive spell from reading Necromancy of Thay and passing the checks. There is a helm in Act 3 on Helsik's house 2nd floor in one of the chests that gives detect thoughts on top of +2 to attack rolls and initiative. Disguise Self you can get from the digital deluxe helm item. Longstrider you can get from Act 3 boots which grant Longstrider and Freedom of movement as passives.
BTW you can also apply longstrider to multiple targets at no resource cost. I haven't tested if adding Halsin/Jaheira to the party and then removing them from the party will also remove Longstrider from allies, I don't think so.
Well, for Featherfall and Enhanced Leap, you can just swap that in and out on a Wizard, like Gale.
They both only last 10 turns anyway.
Swapping a spell out like this will cancel the effect, just like with any other spell.
Oh and yes applying Longstrider to a character and removing whoever cast Longstrider from the party will not cancel Longstrider. The new character coming into your party wont have Longstrider though.
Neither does leveling up and removing Longstrider from your list of spells, as I have tested on my Bard already. I had Gale for the spell so it was no longer needed on my Bard.
This is a more verbose version of the previous list:
Falling to 0 HP even if you dont die by the way removes all buffs. If you had Speak wit Dead or Detect Thoughts acive, its gone. A bit annoying when you gained Speak with Dead from the item, since you cant recast until a Long Rest.
Last edited by Halycon Styxland; 02/09/2308:32 AM.
Pretty sure the most essential class for damage output from an optimized standpoint is the monk. There are 3 feats which give massive damage increases- Great Weapon Master (-5 to hit, +10 damage), Sharpshooter (same), and Tavern Brawler (+6 to hit, +6 damage). It should be obvious which one is the best mathematically, of course. I’ve seen many builds which deal 50+ damage per hit and / or have 6+ attacks per turn, all of them involved monk, most involved Barbarian, some involved Rogue or Druid, some involved Warlock or Paladin, and at most they involved 2 levels of Fighter for action surge. Haven’t seen a build with 11 levels of fighter which comes close to the damage output of those builds.
But it is funny to me to say that Fighter is the most essential class for damage output while talking about the benefits of haste! Haste, Hold Person, and so forth are *far* more impactful than what flavor of Martial you’ve got kicking around. Command to drop their weapon, or a Rogue stealing them before the fight begins, will do far more for the fight than having a 3rd attack. When we’re talking about impact, all classes can dish out damage. It’s a matter of what else you can do; for Fighters that comes entirely from their subclass for Eldritch Knight or Battlemaster, and doesn’t come at all for Champion.
Fun melee builds are fun. Make the most awesome tavern brawler - but a Tempest 2/Evocation 2 /Storm Sorc 8 will make Orin wet and then show her true murder. Damage numbers in the five hundreds will fly across an entire screen whilst one screams 'unlimited power'. Do you know what happens to a Beholder that's struck by lightning? Same thing that happens to everything else.
But, if you're just playing normally, and don;t go for the super optimized multiclass builds, then yes. A Battlemaster Fighter is the MVP throughout your game. And mobility is king, so Lae'Zel really shines with her psionics. I did a 'going ot make the ultimate blaster' run and got tired of it being too good. I ahve way more fun with a suboptimal wizard with lots of spell to try out, like locking a door for ten turns and so forth.
My next run will be a 'no-multiclassing no-respec allowed' run, and will play as one of the origin characters. I suspect Laezel is, then, the absolute best - but at the same time, Karlach will not come second.
Just want to say, in my singleplayer game so far a Battlemaster Fighter has not at all been my MVP. Laezel is almost my weakest companion, in part because I'm a Gith Paladin and already have both Gith stuff and melee tanking covered, and in part because all she brings is damage and a small amount of utility, while the rest bring:
Myself, Gith Paladin (Actual MVP) - I tank, I slaughter, I pass skill checks, I serve as party face in dialogue, and thanks to lay on hands, high AC, and especially the save bonus, I don't go down or get turned against the party. Damage with Smite is quite good, and taking a long rest to replenish those is almost never a problem. Gale (MVP of companions) - Crowd Control, he's effectively ended multiple fights before they really began, and trivialized some fights that would otherwise have been tough by landing crucial CC on bosses. Plus having him around to both dump obtained scrolls on and then as a result to pick and choose from any of the spells he's got whenever needed has been phenomenally powerful. Granted I did go into Bard after 2nd level but even as a pure Wizard I feel he'd be contributing massively, Bard has just meant Bardic Inspiration and so forth help out as well. Asterion (2nd most useful) - He's earned me effectively infinite wealth outside of combat, and kept himself well stocked with plenty of poisons and elemental arrows and so forth. In combat he's a dual wielding sharpshooter so he's dishing out massive, consistent damage round after round. Shadowheart (3rd) - She covers healing so my main character doesn't have to. She was respecced to Life Domain, granted, but that just makes her more effective in her role. Her role would be an awesome and useful one regardless. Spells like Sanctuary let her do some really silly things. Karlach (4th) - I don't love when I bring her around, she's largely redundant with my main character, but she at least is an absolute *tank* and I don't need to worry too much about healing her, positioning, or anything like that. Plus she has some fun unique abilities not normally available to Tieflings which make her better than a "stock" Tiefling Barb. Laezel (5th) - Again basically redundant with my MC, built her as a Battlemaster fighter but haven't had a single encounter where she shined, in large part because bringing her (typically because I'm doing stuff with her story) means I'm without Shadowheart and thus my heals, or Gale and thus my CC, or Asterion and thus the crazy ranged damage he provides. I typically try to replace Shadowheart but unlike Karlach she takes enough damage to where the lack of healing is a problem, significantly cuts into my damage output replacing that healing and she doesn't provide enough damage upside over Shadowheart for the loss to be justified. I'd redo her as an Archer and just generically replace Asterion when she comes along, but even then I'd miss the scouting and theiving. Largely due to party comp, but I do legitimately resent when I feel obliged to bring her along. Wyll (6th) - Likely just my party composition or preferred playstyle, but he feels even more useless than Laezel, I just can't seem to make him work well with my party and make him feel like he's really contributing anything. If I had a Ranger with Whirlwind attack or a Storm Sorc or something I could use him to shove enemies into place for better AOE potential, and at least then he'd have a role. Right now he just feels like a strict downgrade vs my main 3.
YMMV of course, but for me Laezel has *not* been the MVP of the run at all, at least she's not been the worst, but that has been more of an indictment on Wyll than a reason to praise her. Just my experience of course.
A wandering octopus said it first, but in my first playthrough Karlach was best for damage, but my Lore Bard was MVP. This game the monk is mvp from just silly amounts of damage. I think Monks might be busted even without Tavern Brawler down to how itemisation works in this game.
