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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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(P.S. I will say, I personally think that in writing the whole 'The most sunshine character who's suffered some truly horrible shit doesn't have a happy ending because that's poignant or whatever' trope is kind of uninspired by this point, BUT I would definitely not be up in arms about it that much if it felt solid on all accounts. ) Honestly I have as almost big a problem with the painfully obvious tragedy-bait the current incarnation of her story has as I do with the story inconsistency itself. Like, I want to save Karlach because she's nice, and the fact that I can't in a choice based RPG sucks. I understand the people who like tragedy and like her ending to be tragic, however I don't think it's too much to ask to ALSO have an option that isn't so tragic, because again, this is a choice based RPG and through hard work and effort I feel like I should be able to get a good ending for the character I like. I totally agree with this. I mean look at Shadowheart. The player is able to turn her away from Shar and rescue her parents, resulting in a very happy ending. Even if she still has a twinge of pain from time-to-time, she has her family back and has a new lease on life. She's happy and feels like the future is hers to mold. I'd consider that a happy ending, even if has that one small blip. Why can't Karlach have a happy ending too? I'm confident that many of the Karlach fans in this thread want to see Karlach cured. She can have a downside--like still having Zariel chasing her to the ends of the universe--but be happy and able to live a life with love and possibilities in it. As players, we should be able to choose from a range of fates for Karlach spanning from happy to bittersweet to tragic. I would argue that all characters should have possible outcomes along that spectrum.
Justice for Karlach
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member
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member
Joined: Feb 2022
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[quote=Raz415]Jesus Christ you people actually got a new ending because of your whining and you still aren't happy with it. Crying about Karlach's ending just shows how much you've missed the point of her entire character. The writers did an amazing job the first time around, and they decided to include some fan-fiction in the game for you. It's time to let it go.
Every time I see a story about a character with the traits as Karlach, a queer coded-woman suffering from a past of abuse, torture and pain, (traits I happen to SHARE by the way) it ALWAYS ends the same fucking way! In one story after another. Over and over and over. Again and again. There's a reason why "Bury Your Gays" is a Trope and why there's entire website called "Does The Lesbian Die." They made every companion bisexual. Im not adressing anything in your post other than that, just thought I should point that out. If anything she is more Hetero than Bi/lesbian, Partial quote from Karlach: "Cant wait to ride you" Larian have catered plenty to gay/bi LGBTQ+. I think you reading more into this than the game is saying.
"They say he who smelt it dealt it."
Sooo technically... this burnt corpse is your fault officer."
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Okay, let's just all remember that a bisexual/pansexual woman is not a lesbian nor is she straight (is, however, a queer character by definition) and not derail this thread into THAT discourse on top of everything.
Bury Your Gays only works when it's a token rare gay character who dies in a whole cast of het people, and this game has a whole other cast of similarly bi/pan characters, including women, who are alive and can be happy, so it does not apply. It is, however, very much possible to ride a woman with nothing hetero about it, I promise.
We can discuss faults in Karlach's quest and writing without reaching for additional reasons, all queer characters needn't be immortal.
All said sincerely as a lesbian myself, so don't jump at me. Let's just stay on track.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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As I see it, there's two separate sources of discontentment with how Karlach's story is right now-
1) She's a nice, lovable, fun character who gets utterly screwed over by the story, and there's nothing at all you can do about it. That's obviously going to be hugely frustrating to a lot of people, myself included. I know a lot of people will say that not every story has to have a happy ending, and I'll grant you that's true. But, to offer a counterpoint- not every story *has* to end tragically, either. BG3 has loads of tragedy already. It's also okay for stories to end in ways that aren't horribly depressing, sometimes. I'll be honest and admit this is the primary thing that bugs me, and it's made even worse by:
2)The lack of effort characters in the story put into the problem. This would be frustrating on its own, but combined with #1 it's deeply unsatisfying. To contrast, I literally invaded Hell to help Lae'Zel out as part of her quest in my last game, and you can go to extreme efforts to help people like Mayrina you barely know. But Karlach? once you give the second piece of infernal iron to Dammon in early act 2, that's it. That's the last time you make any active effort to do anything about the problem. Everyone just gives up -which is the one part of Karlach's story that feels really out of character for her, to me. This woman survived 10 years of slavery in Hell and claws her way back to freedom, then just gives up right after getting free?
It doesn't feel like we tried our best and failed. it feels like we failed because we weren't allowed to ever try, and that's incredibly frustrating.
Last edited by Comrade Canuck; 04/09/23 02:34 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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The game markets itself as D&D simulator. It even manages to play like one which is rare until Act 3 happens. The core of CRPG genre is givin the player the freedom of action, however unlike IRL Dungeon Master the game can't possibly adapt to every player's possible action (some DM can't adapt either). But it skill kinda can by the virture of aknowledgement. You either let me to the thing, or explain me deliberately why I cant. And they could explain it very easy if they tried:
1) Ressurection after detonation? Sorry bud, infernal engines are blended with a soul and destroy it upon detonation! Pretty logical demonic crap!
2) Ressurection before detonation? Eh, the engine detonates upon victim's death, out of options!
3) WISH spell? You know nobody who can cast it, your level cap is 12. Elminster could help, but he either lost access to it or is saving it for some terrible doomsday event.
4) Elemental planes? Sorry bud, forget high temperature bullshit, this NEEDS to be Avernus for engine to function properly!
5) Divine intervention? Well gods can just straight up refuse, but at least we tried eh?
6) Steel watch? Sorry but her engine is really old and defective and will detonate upon further attempts of modification/removal.
Boom. Spread this info over 3-4 dialogues and her fate shall make some sense. I, however, still refuse to play a lighthearted D&D campaign with talking animals and silly jokes where the DM deliberately strips me of power to save a very likeble character because apparently fun is not allowed. Not my cup of tea.
Tbh when I saw her first, how she acted and her quests in Act 1, i hyped myself into believing that her questline is pretty much Pimp My Infernal Barbarian episode where in the endgame she becomes unstoppable demonic justice dispencing machine with a biggest and most hard-hitting metal stick that could be found in-game. That got my gears goin until I learned of her inevitable demise.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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SUGGESTION:
Right now Karlach content is barebones. Find one piece of Iron, then the second one, and that's all. You can also kill a certain character and get her rant but that character dies anyway so it's not really special. And then boohoo, boring sad conclusion. Not very fitting for a game about funny talking animals and cheesy sex jokes.
What I suggest is scrap all that what happens after you give Dammon the second piece. GO NUTS. Make us collect and kill optional harder bosses for special rare parts, metal or insane magical stuff to bring out the full potential of her engine. Give her a small perk tree on her own. Forbid her gaining positive effects from potion, make her always hasted, constant fire aura, complete change of her element from infernal to ice, forge her a damn Iron(wo)man Suit with the engine as the core, GO CRAZY!
Scrap that boring sob story of the engine eventually going boom, we already have that type of character in game and all he has to do to get cured is to not kill himself!
Anyway what do ya think?
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Oh, completely agree, especially with the Ultimate Turbocharged V12 Hot Stuff Barbarian bit :)) Even respecced my first character, a Bard, into a Paladin/Bard multiclass, just so he'd be a big, metal cannonball which she could fling at the enemy - I have no shame when I say she could fling me any which way, I'm her ride-or-die boy-toy <3 :)))
Justice for Karlach
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Where people say that «Not everyone need have a good ending» and something like that, I just look on other companions… I mean, mostly companions can have not just good ending, but a perfect ending without pointing angel in it:
Wyll:
Can broke his contract with Mizora. Save his father. And become Blade of Avernus (with him seems really happy and excited) – Perfect ending, no sacrifices.
Gale:
Not blowing up. Reconciled with Mistra. Get the crown, and after this get a treatment and become Mistra chosen one again - Perfect ending, no sacrifices.
Halsin:
His grow now safe and well. And forest the dark curse was healed - Perfect ending, no sacrifices.
Lae`zel:
Get TWO ancient red dragons that before it belongs to Orpheus. Become leader of Gith liberation against Vlaakit, her people saver and Orpheus chosen one - Perfect ending, no sacrifices.
Jaheira and Minsk:
They both alive, safe and cool. Absolute was destroyed so… I think they happy how - Perfect ending, no sacrifices.
There only two character get a good ending with drop of butter:
Shadowheart:
She is escaping from Shar curse and control and now know who is she and have freedom. But lose her parents (she can escape from Shar and save them too, but will be safer from pain attacks) – Good ending with little pointing.
Astarion:
He gets his freedom. Kill the master that tormented him. Saved his old victims lives and lives of others Cazador`s vampire slaves. And get someone that really appreciate him and seeing good inside his heart. But now he burns under the sun - Good ending with little pointing.
And there we have Karlach:
She doesn't get a treatment for engine. She not rid of Zariel attention and still being chased by her. Only she did is: Kill Gortash and make a friend. In her best possible ending (Avernus) she goes to the hard life in hell, while she must without sleep and rest fight against Zariel forces for her life – Bad ending.
With all of it I really don’t understand when people saying: «Not everyone should have good ending and tragic ending not bad!». With all this good ending for EVERYONE, I just don’t understand this argument. I accept it if we have at least 2-3 other companion with ending that don’t give us any choice (that’s another problem – in game that promoted as game with many choices – not give player any choose is just wrong), but as you see.
Ps – We don’t talk about Mintara… She’s have even more problem than Karlach… But Larian promise fix her, so maybe she`s become better soon. And about Karlach orientation P.S – For my opinion she is pansexual, because she said to D.Urge that she doesn’t care about them`s body and looks. But her sex scenes (especially the second one) definitely was doing with female Tav in mind. She is doesn’t have a different animation for male character at all, I think, it’s one of the arguments about her not being finished (but I don’t see other character sex scenes so don’t know how good they with it).
Justice for Karlach!
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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SUGGESTION:
Right now Karlach content is barebones. Find one piece of Iron, then the second one, and that's all. You can also kill a certain character and get her rant but that character dies anyway so it's not really special. And then boohoo, boring sad conclusion. Not very fitting for a game about funny talking animals and cheesy sex jokes.
What I suggest is scrap all that what happens after you give Dammon the second piece. GO NUTS. Make us collect and kill optional harder bosses for special rare parts, metal or insane magical stuff to bring out the full potential of her engine. Give her a small perk tree on her own. Forbid her gaining positive effects from potion, make her always hasted, constant fire aura, complete change of her element from infernal to ice, forge her a damn Iron(wo)man Suit with the engine as the core, GO CRAZY!
Scrap that boring sob story of the engine eventually going boom, we already have that type of character in game and all he has to do to get cured is to not kill himself!
Anyway what do ya think? This.
Justice For Karlach!
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Okay, let's just all remember that a bisexual/pansexual woman is not a lesbian nor is she straight (is, however, a queer character by definition) and not derail this thread into THAT discourse on top of everything.
Bury Your Gays only works when it's a token rare gay character who dies in a whole cast of het people, and this game has a whole other cast of similarly bi/pan characters, including women, who are alive and can be happy, so it does not apply. It is, however, very much possible to ride a woman with nothing hetero about it, I promise.
We can discuss faults in Karlach's quest and writing without reaching for additional reasons, all queer characters needn't be immortal.
All said sincerely as a lesbian myself, so don't jump at me. Let's just stay on track. Every single character companion in the game is technically pan, or as I prefer to call it solely when it comes to game design "player-sexual." I just found Karlach to be especially butch-lesbian coded, or at the very least Pan-Butch coded. Much moreso than Shadowheart and Laezel. As a Queer Butch myself who has also struggled with being stuck in a cycle of abuse for ten years, Karlach's story felt incredibly real to me and the way it was handled was incredibly poor. Either way the sexuality of the character doesn't really matter since there's really no excuse for them to have handled her character's story so badly. Especially since the option to save her still exists when you play as Karlach with the core character option in the character creator.
Justice For Karlach!
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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I really do hope Larian will look at her Infernal heart questline in the future. Quest with Gortash is amazing and one of the top parts of whole game, but Infernal engine quest in actual state is flat with only 2x bring infernal ore and then your effort to save her ends, because the final part is missing in act3. There should be possibility to continue with the quest. Maybe saving gondians and then with some high rolls/ or fulfill some preconditions during previous gameplay, but some chance to save her and let her stay in Faerun should be possible. If you don't fulfill these conditions, the outcome should be return to avernus or death as it is now. I think, that this is all people wants here
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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Sold! Where do I sign and how much money do I throw at you?
Edit: sorry for the triple-post, everyone, received a 504 immediately after submitting this...
Last edited by Arkaelus; 04/09/23 06:39 PM.
Justice for Karlach
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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The main issue with her story is how ridiculously easy it should be to fix. Like, we literally have engine creator saying he has superior version but we can't do anything about it. And that's only one option in a game where pacts, gods and all kind of instant fixes exist and happen all the time. Tragedy baiting is very poor, especially given the fact that all other companions have happy or at least semi happy endings, but she does not no matter what. This also sends very bad message, especially with the horrible wording used in patch 2 announcement. Is coming back to the abuser really the "ending she deserves" ?
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Reposting what I've thought on steam forums:
1) Make her motivation to go to Avernus not a sobby "muh engine gonna explode" but "I'm now powerful as hell so I'm gotta rip off the wings of my ex-mistress with my bare hands and eat them with chili"
2) I'm suggesting they rewrite it completely into fun journey of upgrading our fiery friend into avatar of vengeance or\and justice and have her decide what to do with her newfound overtuned powers. Astarion can get his upgrade and so could Karlach.
Hell, make it a choice even. Go FULL POWER but become more and more unhinged and demonic so she then decides to go wreck all of Avernus on a quest for vengeance or calm down the engine, maybe even cure it of demonic traces or replace it with weaker non-demonic version or make it HOLY and have her swear an oath to a good deity and become a paladin.
Seriously there is so many cool stuff you can think of about what to do with her engine and they chose to drag a pathetic sob story and not even do anything with it.
3) Lock her class to a Fighter (Furious but also Reasonable) and let the player decide her route - upgrade demonic engine to a full power and have her become more unhinged and powerful Barbarian (Vengeance, Avernus ending) or stabilize it, purge it and have her pledge an oath to become a kind and reasonable Paladin (Adventure, Golarion ending)
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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I bought this game because of Karlach specifically. Was so excited to go on an adventure with her and come out of it swinging. But I can never get that chance because the game won't let me.
In a game that was advertised as one where you craft your own fate through your own actions, I should be able to find some way out of her predicament.
This idea that only having a "tragic ending" for her is fine as a narrative vision makes no sense.
Her goal in the story is to escape enslavement, yet that is not possible while that engine is still inside her, because it is constantly anchoring her to her slavers. Her arc can never be completed because of it. That's not up for debate, and it's not a matter of "vision". That's just the logical sequence of her story.
If you wish to tell the story of a slave who seeks to escape enslavement but fails, there needs to be a different setup for that. You'd need plenty of hints throughout her story that escape is futile -- that every avenue that should be open to her somehow isn't. And those justifications need to be good and convincing.
However, I fail to see how doing that is even plausible given all of what the other characters have been able to pull off in their stories.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 04/09/23 07:57 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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I truly hope you host D&D campaigns, because dayumn! You should've been on the writing staff for this game!
Last edited by Arkaelus; 04/09/23 07:44 PM.
Justice for Karlach
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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I do have one campaign going on with a couple of friends, but we're all novices.
The writers of the game are clearly talented people who know what needs to be done much better than I do. For all we know, this was out of their hands.
I just hope the developers understand the importance of rectifying this situation.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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As someone with cardiac issues, I identified a lot with Karlach.
I don't need Larian to tell me my only two options are death or living hell. I already know, thank you.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I do not host anything, I just tried to expand her story upon general theme of this game of Personality VS Power, which Larians themselves forgot about in Act 3. It starts with Illithid abilities, usage of which shoud "take something of you". You surrender your sense of self and your higher need such as love, recognition and social links for more power to fuel your basic needs such as hunger and survival. You can refuse this power and remain what you are and stay true to your dreams OR you can surrender yourself and become something greater, an apex predator among intelligent speciec though forever chained to your bottomless urge to consume others mind and slowly lose yourself to this hunger. This is what being Illithid means.
(well, actually you do not transform into one, you just die and larvae takes over your body and memories. That's why the soul isn't there - it leaves the body with the death of a host, larvae just thinks of itself as the person it just ate because it starts its life with host's memories)
Astarion can ascend but complete lose himself, drunk in the sea of new possibilities and his cravings for domination. SH is already lost herself, you can help her recover. Laezel doesn't have a sense of self until she denies her supposed goddess, until then she bootlicks her society's hierarchy for a chance of recognition and power. Minthara lost herself in the cult and can be recovered, but her questline is even more barebones than Karlach's. Gale and Wyll are just 'sinners' that now reap what they saw, I dont see this theme in their story. But they still have much more agency in the events of the game than Karlach. What I'm saying is that Karlach doesn't gain any transformation of character, she doesn't evolve nor learns anything other than accepting her fate which is not a theme suitable for full fledged companion I think. I can be there, but there should be more for a character then, otherwise its bland.
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