Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Let Withers Cook [Massive Endgame Spoilers][THEORY DISCUSSION]

Having pieced together the timeline of the game, I would like to discuss that the biggest consequences and implications of this game have nothing to do with the Dead Three, Illithids, or the Greater Gods. The biggest player in this game is Jergal, and it's not even close. Here are the premises of the argument and relevant information:

-Ed Greenwood, creator of the Forgotten Realms setting, described Jergal as being eight or nine steps ahead of everyone else, including deities, and being immersed in a web of conspiracies. Elsewhere on this forum, one of our regular posters found a quote from Greenwood that said Jergal was conceived as the ultimate antagonist of the Realms (however I cannot find the source).

-At the end of the game, Jergal describes the Dead Three as vermin, and that their time as gods was coming to an end. Of course, recall that Jergal is already eight or nine steps ahead of EVERYONE, including the Greater Gods, and that it was he who made the Dead Three gods in the first place out of sheer boredom.

-As a sub-conclusion for the above premises, Jergal knew of the behaviors and fates of the Dead Three before making them gods. Which means he knew of their plan for the Absolute hundreds, maybe thousands, of years in advance. Jergal is also notoriously apathetic about the world. Which means Jergal is not calling the Dead Three "vermin" because they disgust him, but because they are pawns that are outliving their utility to whatever his plan is.

-To quote all available wikis, "Jergal played no part in the Time of Troubles." If I recall correctly, the ONLY gods in Realmspace who were not forced to become mortal avatars during the Troubles were Helm and Ao. Even Ilsenine, patron deity and creator of the Illithids, was forced to incarnate as a mortal Elder Brain. If Ilsenine is indeeed the creator of the Illithids, and the Illithids are indeed either from the distant future or the Far Realm, this means EITHER (not both) Jergal's omniscience or Jergal's divinity exceeds that of time itself, or Realmspace itself, respectively.

-If Jergal played no role during the Troubles, then two possibilities emerge: Either Jergal entombed himself BEFORE the Troubles, or the Troubles had no effect on him. If the former is true, Jergal knows the will of Ao before Ao even has time to act, which gives Jergal true and absolute omniscience. If the latter is true, it means Jergal is unaffected by the will of Ao. In either case, Jergal's capabilities exceed those of a Greater God.

-Post Second Sundering, around the time the Dead Three became active again and activated the plan for the Absolute (1482), all Gods were forced to either choose to be Greater Gods and sacrifice their ability to interfere in mortal affairs, or to choose to interfere in mortal affairs at the cost of some divinity, making them Quasi-Divine Beings. Based on the events of BG3, all of the Dead Three AND Jergal are interfering in mortal affairs. However, Jergal's above divinity exceeding those of normal Gods is already established. Only two possibilities emerge: Jergal is above the will of Ao OR Jergal is acting on Ao's direct orders. However, for those of you thinking it's the latter, go back to point one: eight or nine steps ahead of EVERYONE. Even working for Ao, Jergal knows what's up and has an angle.

-Jergal mentions at the end that the Gods noticed the lack of souls and that Mind Flayers don't have souls. Except neither Jergal nor Ao need souls or believers to remain powerful. Also, recall that Jergal has these exceptional capabilities exceeding those of all other Gods despite giving up his main portfolios to the Dead Three hundreds of years ago. Why would Jergal, true connoisseur of the apathetic and non-interventionist arts, do anything to aid other Gods who are clearly beneath him? Eight or nine steps ahead.

-I am relatively certain Jergal is the ONLY NPC you cannot harm at all. Now, many of you may call this simple plot armor for an essential mechanic of the game. Nay, I say. Jergal serves an essential role to the narrative and has already been established above as exceeding in any normal capabilities as an avatar or God.

-Anticipating the counterargument that Jergal is first loyal to the portfolio of the Dead and will undermine any who do not fulfill the responsibilities of the office: Jergal already serves Kelemvor. While Myrkul and the Dead Three may hold significance to the Dead, Jergal is not bound to undermine their plan out of duty. This is part of a longer plan.

TL;DR: Jergal is up to some shit, and it's bigger than the end of the Dead Three (who were already ended between the end of the Troubles and the Second Sundering).

(Also side-comment: One of my complaints about a plothole in Act 2 was that Ketheric didn't go directly to Myrkul after Isobel's death and instead went to Shar. A review of the timeline indicates that Ketheric didn't go to Myrkul because Myrkul was kinda sorta dead at this time.)

-A poster claimed Greenwood said of all of the "villains" of the Forgotten Realms, Jergal was the most capable of winning because, in a way, he had already won. Consider this claim in light of "Fate spins along as it should."

-To quote Greenwood's twitter in 2020: "Oh, yes. Jergal was and is a master schemer. But NDAs prevent me from saying much more on this.
Other than to point out the obvious: Jergal has been 'playing' Szass Tam, Bane, Verlsharoon, Bhaal, Myrkul, Cyric, and many others. So deftly that it's barely been noticed."

-To those who might think Jergal is not a villain: Recall that Jergal was not merely a God of the Dead, but also the God of Tyranny, Strife, and Murder. In 2e, he was Lawful Evil. In 4e, he was unaligned (like Ao). As neutral as he may be now, Jergal's roots lie in evil. His perceived neutrality is likely on account of an adherence to a plan deftly woven into fate itself.

And as you've said, mind-flayers don't have souls, and there's another line in the game that says the worship of the mind-controlled doesn't empower deities, this is part of my confusion around the Dead Three's plot, apart from Bane for whom dominating the world seems pretty on brand. I'm also wondering if by relinquishing his, or some part of his, godhood Jergal is considered to be grandfathered around the limitations put on the other gods.

We know that the main plot was devised by Gortash, Gortash was sold to a devil, Raphael specifically, when he was a child, freed himself I forget how, rose through the ranks of the criminal underworld encountering both The Emperor and Karlach. While the heist to steal the crown probably took place ~10 years ago, he can maybe assume he became aware of it while sold to Raphael, when during all of this Gortash fell in with Bane is also unclear to me, but The Emperor refers to him as a Banite when he knew him.

Another point about the colony beneath Moonrise. We learn that it went dormant from lack of resources, an unclear but likely extended period of time ago, there's a slate you find in the colony which reprises the reawakening of the colony, by three stones of power which then enslaved the hivemind. (unrelated we also learn that the original chosen of Bhaal is Orrin's brother) This might explain why there's a lot of otherwise rare Illithid tech involved, but more difficult to square, this means that underneath Moonrise Towers, a Selunite stronghold, is a dormant Illithid colony, the ancient remains of a Sharran settlement, upon which Ketheric Thorm built a second Sharran settlement.

always knew about the Crown of Karsus, the Karsite Weave (given he knows everything about the seven origins when you first meet him), and Karsus' Avatar. Since Jergal was still evil during the time of Netheril, I would venture a guess that he was behind Karsus' Folly and Mystryl's Death, given he knew everything mentioned above and was one of five Evil Gods of the Netherese Pantheon, and the only one to have this knowledge. Karsus began work on Karsus' Avatar only after being warned by Arthindol, a lich of one of Abeir-Toril's progenitor races. Jergal often took on the appearance of a different progenitor race, but not the one of Arthindol. While Arthindol was one of the sources of Netheril's arcane knowledge, there is not much information about him. While Karsus was the most powerful wizard ever, and he had Arthindol's help, the spell of Karsus' Folly was not natural, and very unique even by divine standards. If I recall correctly, the only other time a God was stripped of power through magic alone was the Time of Troubles. After the Fall, Jergal gives his portfolios to Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul almost immediately. The timing of Jergal relinquishing his divine portfolios is very convenient.

It's not Kelemvor, I can say that. If Withers isn't referring to himself in a roundabout way (as if he is the Avatar and Jergal is his greater whole), then I only see two possibilities. It could be Ao, and that he has received exceptional permission to accomplish this task that feeds into his plan, or it is a yet-to-be-revealed being who either comes from the future or knows the future. But this level of knowledge is not normal. Based on Illithid and Planescape lore, the realms are no stranger to beings coming from the future. I would not be surprised if Jergal had been in contact with his future self at some point, given his title is the "Lord of the End of Everything," a title he has always maintained, even after relinquishing his portfolios.

was not to be worshiped or to acquire souls, as the nature of the Mind Flayers negates these benefits. Given the Dead Three are quasi-divine beings after the Second Sundering, they chose interference in the mundane over the rest of their divine powers. I believe the Dead Three were building an impossibly massive army while simultaneously draining other gods of souls and worship. The purpose of building a powerful army in the Realms while also weakening all other Gods was to recover enough artifacts and capabilities to ascend to Greater Godhood while maintaining full control over the Realms. Recall that despite Ao declaring none would ascend to Godhood without his explicit approval after the Second Sundering, Gale can still use Karsus' Artifacts to ascend. If the Absolute hit a critical mass, it would be able to plane-hop to deny the Greater Gods ANY worshipers. At the same time, the Dead Three would use Karsus' Artifacts, Illithid capabilities, and other things they found to "build" a fully Ascended God out of Karsite and Far Realm materials (and potentially materials from the future, as this Illithid being would be able to assimilate all of the remnants of the Illithid Empire as well). Given all cosmologies are threatened by the same Far Realm, it stands to reason that components of this Divine Abomination would be beyond the control of Ao. I mention Ao because he's the reason the Dead Three died in the first place, and there are few beings quite as petty as the Dead Three. They would definitely want a contingency against the guy that basically killed them last time. Once this Divine Abomination of Karsite and Far Realm essence was completed and the Greater Gods were fully weakened and unable to intervene due to the post-Sundering rules, the Absolute would simply "eat" the other Gods, probably starting with Cyric. The motivations of the Dead Three are revenge and power: Revenge against fate, and the power to control it. In light of this particular motive, Jergal probably refers to Ao when he first meets the player. If BOTH Jergal and Ao are omniscient, then they probably formed an unsteady alliance to stop the Dead Three in light of their mutual interest: Fate spinning along as it should.

"If he's actually Jergal than I'd be worried silly because Jergal is *not* a good guy, and according to 'word of god' He's behind basically every major catastrophe that's befallen Toril since Karsus's fall. Seeing him involved in a storyline that heavily involves the dead three would be 'mild' cause for concern."