I've gotten some new (to me) dialogue with Karlach in Acts I and II - very short scenes which emphasize the increasingly desperate nature of her condition.
I'm starting to think, that they want us to go to avernus, maybe because future content, dlc killing Zariel or something like that.
I thought there was going to be some kind of quest in avernus, too.
yeah, me too.
During my firts playthrough I was expecting something like this whole act3. First I expected to continue the fix engine quest in act3, looked everwhere and nothing, then I expected to enter Avernus and fix the issue there and again nothing. then I killed Gortash, which was absolutely amazing and then the whole questlike ended. So I said to myself, dont worry, new one will start in couple of hours and again nothing. And then I completed the game, my best options was sent her to hell with Wyll (without patch2 where wasnt the options to go with her even if you romanced her). And then The end, thanks for playing. That hurt a lot.
So basically, she tells you time and time again she doesn't want to go back, you don't even try to fix her engine, and at the end you somehow convince her to go?
So basically, she tells you time and time again she doesn't want to go back, you don't even try to fix her engine, and at the end you somehow convince her to go?
it looks that way, but the same thing was basically in the game before patch, maybe without convincing.
And? She knows less about the engine than a refugee in the middle of nowhere, obviously she's scared and desperate. That only makes the whole thing worse because we can't: - ask Dammon for help - ask Steel Watcher for help - ask Gondians for help - try to make deal with Raphael - try to make deal with Mizora - try to make deal with Zariel - try to make deal with literally any god (there's plenty of them) - ask Gale or any other sorcerer for help - use canon item like scroll of true resurrection on her I guess we are not that desperate after all, right?
My thoughts expand beyond just Karlach's impression on the game, I don't think I am as invested into Karlach as a lot of others are but I understand what it elicits for folks.
Time stamp 14:05 and on.
The passion from player's feedback is valuable. If it weren't, would they have added a new epilogue to Karlach that keeps the adventure alive with Tav and/or Wyll? Bitter but semi-sweet.
It's all in our heads after all. However I think people are missing crucial facts, if you step away and look at it simply. It has been a little over a month since the official launch, the response to feedback has been incredibly quick.
They are listening, it has been only a month, give it time. Remember, they're not done doing these kind of content additions, adjustments and tweaks. It was literally referenced by Swen in this interview link I am posting here. Immediately after talking about what they did for Patch 2 Karlach addition. Expect more additions and response by Larian, as Swen said himself.
My initial journey regarding this specific topic of a 'fail state' resolution came from thinking I failed to do a crucial step in Karlach's questline, which lead me to investigate online for a clue or hint to what I missed. That naturally translated to my other immersion breaking and/or loose ends being present.
However, doing so left me in the whirlwind of feedback on forums, discord, and reddit. It is wild to see how invested people are in the immersion of a story, but isn't that what life is anyway, a story, memories and our version of how it played out? Fantasy and imagination is a good escape from reality, I like to think they balance each other out, one serving the other. I don't think an iteration of this concept is lost to Larian, quite the opposite. Have faith folks and remember your feedback helps them, help you.
Below is my thoughts on Karlach's epilogue addition and possible hint at future content.
To mention, the new epilogue for Karlach is left an adventure open ended, moving onto an Act 4 if you will. Wyll even says that, in the dialogue during dock scene, a reference to it just being the next adventure.
The ending she deserves can be interpreted as her wrapping up any loose ends and closure to where she has been wronged in her life, she now has the tools and allies to do this. Gortash was a convenient first check off the list, be it good or bad.
Avernus, first layer of the hells, was hardly a match in the tutorial scene, what does that mean for DnD level 12 hardened and legendary equipped champions? I took out a cambion commander and took his useful sword at level 1-2.
The cut audio dialogue from withers on YouTube also supports Larian's vision of what Avernus looked like for Karlach had you chose that option. Karlach and you are razing the hells of Avernus and have Zariel in fear, Larian content at one point, not fan fiction head canon.
If we are told we actually achieved something then okay, im fine with that. As for now slave is forced to fight for her freedom once more, the fight is to the death because she can't escape anymore, and all this happens just because we weren't allowed to try one of the many solutions.
And look I get it's been only month, we are far from sharpening knives and pitchforks. I just really wish they added one simple quest to literally calm us down. Then, come what may
None of us wants upper city, ten new questlines, avernus as explorable location right here and now. Just anything to adress the issue that slave returning to desperately fight for freedom again is definitely not "ending she deserves". Especially given the fact that solutions are in plain sight but we are not allowed to use any. Hell, we can still go to Avernus for dlc because Karlach can't allow Zariel to force anyone else into the fate she had or whatever, but we just want anything. If they say that an actuall happy ending is on the way the whole affair ends immediately. I can wait, I just need to know I have something to wait for
If we are told we actually achieved something then okay, im fine with that. As for now slave is forced to fight for her freedom once more, the fight is to the death because she can't escape anymore, and all this happens just because we weren't allowed to try one of the many solutions.
And look I get it's been only month, we are far from sharpening knives and pitchforks. I just really wish they added one simple quest to literally calm us down. Then, come what may
Even though we're all in the same boat and I want a happy ending for Karlach more than anything else I want from the game, but just imagine how much work it is to add one quest. The dialogues between Tav and Karlach, the dialogues between other Origins and Karlach, party members reacting to it, voice acting, mocap.. It's actually insane and if adding the expansion took them 3 weeks to make, just imagine how much time it might take to add one fleshed out quest (because obviously, we don't want it to be rushed)
But yeah, a simple confirmation that it will be in the works some time down the road would've been magical!
Exactly. So far, abstract and even misleading communication has been the biggest issue. I don't think the outcry around cut content would have been nearly as big as it has been if they would have kept comms straight and simple. As you've so very excellently said, "the ending she deserves" bit felt like a direct ""jab"" (using heavy-duty quotes here, because I don't want this to imply that it was malicious in any way, but it was obviously targeted) at the very raison d'etre of this entire now 32-page thread (and other threads and Discord servers, and I'm sure many other environments), and what has been delivered wasn't significantly different than what had already caused many of us to be upset, if not stop playing the game entirely...
I honestly think that if they'd just been upfront about this and told us plainly "hey, we're nearly done with it, it isn't finished just yet, but we want to put what's done out there for you to play and we'll keep adding things in as we complete them," it wouldn't have been taken so badly by the community. Sure, dissenters will always exist either way, and so will those who will never be satisfied regardless of what's delivered, but I think everyone understood that this project is a MASSIVE beast, both narratively and technically, and most would be more than willing to still offer support to Larian, who, despite some ill-advised actions, have shown that they aren't solely about the money, like most game developing companies are nowadays.
I mean, the Early Access sold like hotcakes, the Collector's Edition was sold out months before the game even came out, people would like nothing more than to support a company that's in it for the passion. And I truly think they'd set an even greater example if they were the first to be fully upfront about what's what, unlike the flood of lies and honeyed words most other companies spew constantly...
And I truly think they'd set an even greater example if they were the first to be fully upfront about what's what, unlike the flood of lies and honeyed words most other companies spew constantly...
Well, as many people have said previously, Larian is known for announcing things only when they are close to being complete. "Underpromise and overdeliver" so to speak. So I don't thing they will be giving us any promises any time soon, that's why they've been so vague about the whole Karlach situation. Hell, even about the Upper City situation. I guess time will tell, we need to stay strong
Believe me, if somebody would step up to fill old Blizzard's "When It's Done" shoes, I'd be excited about the day like I used to be about Christmas. Personally, telling me "it'll be handled" is more than plenty, because it's more than, essentially, not much...
Honestly, I think at this point we might be beating a dead horse. That's not to say people shouldn't keep expressing their opinion on it or anything, but if Larian doesn't realize at this point people find Karlach's ending, even with the new patch 2 content, extremely disappointing, then they're just not paying any attention. Based on what they have said, it's pretty clear they are aware of this, however. I don't think the new content for her actually resolves any of the problems people had with her story- it certainly leaves me feeling unsatisfied- but the fact they felt the need to put something together makes it pretty clear they know there's an issue here.
I do agree it would be nice to get some kind of confirmation that they're aware of the issue and plan to address it further, but I'd be surprised if we actually see significant changes to how things play out until we (hopefully!) get a Baldur's Gate 3: Definitive Edition sometime in 2024. Thankfully Larian does have a known track record of addressing stuff like this in definitive editions, so I'm hopeful it'll (eventually) get sorted.
Yeah, one simple sentence "we're aware of issues with Karlachs's quest in act3 and we'll definitely look at it" will be enough for the fans. Then we all can go calmly sleep and waiting for definitive edition. Fingers crossed Larian
Exactly, at this point im not sure they just wanted to flesh out important ending before ps5, this was all they could do and just used terrible wording, or they want to troll us, or rather straight up take a piss. Like how does that even sound? "Former slave is forced into hated place, and forced to fight to the death because escape is no longer an option, and this is an ending we think the sweetest companion deserves"
The investment in these characters stories is proof of how good Larian’s writing can be. Most of us are not questioning that, on the contrary lol
But there is no question that Karlach’s storyline is much, much shorter and “plain” than other origins (just check the quest log lol after finishing the game). Whatever the reason for it, the thing that bothered me the most wasn’t even the possible endings for her - it was the path LEADING there.
I’m even playing as Karlach (aka avatar Karlach) now hoping that I’d get more bits about her personal story, and that some moments in the game would change/adapt due to her specific predicament.
In Act 1 this kind of happens. She gets some specific dialogue and moments, like after facing the paladins of Tyr. Playing as her, it made me excited to expect some more content that I might’ve not seen playing as a custom tav.
But, towards the end of Act 1, it seems Karlach-specific moments are essentially over. The story progression of her character, the fact that she is dying - that she could not be touched, then now she can - is mostly ignored by other origins (some don’t even comment on her dying - I’m looking at you, Astarion). There IS a bit extra content about her backstory in moonrise towers, but it feels gratuitous and disconnected.
Other origins have a crescendo in their stories, twists and turns, that leads to an end that, even when bitter sweet, fulfills you because the path leading there was rich and expertly crafted.
That’s where Karlach’s story fell short for me. She doesn’t have nearly as rich a path, or as carefully crafted interactions that fill you with satisfaction during the course of the game, building up to an ending that could’ve been sad, but fulfilling. In that sense, she does feel like an afterthought - and that’s not up to the standard of the rest of the game.
I think if the rest of the game was kind of sloppy or mediocre, we might’ve let many of these issues slide, or they’d blur with the rest. But the fact that we KNOW how good the writing is/can be (Astarion’s story arch is incredible, for example), made us - well, greedy. Greedy in a good way, I suppose, because we want every character in the game to have the same level of writing and development.
I’m not expecting tons of new content or anything, but I would like to see some rewritten dialogue options, some added reactions from origins and the like. Unrealistically, I’d love a full rewrite of Karlach’s questline and storyline to the same level of richness as Shadowheart’s. But it won’t happen.
Instead, if we could at least have avatar Karlach’s story plot holes covered or fixed - like, for example, Gale talking about dying to her as if she can’t understand what it feels to be at the brink of death when she herself is dying too lol (what an absolute self centered bastard he sounded), or Astarion confessing to Karlach to then completely ignore when she is told she will die (that’s cold even for him) - if moments like these, when it seems writers forgot about her, could be fixed, I’d already be content.
Playing as her is becoming a very strange experience after having such a rich experience as tav. I wish Larian would at least review and patch the path leading to Karlach’s ending as much - if not more - than the endings themselves.
I've gotten some new (to me) dialogue with Karlach in Acts I and II - very short scenes which emphasize the increasingly desperate nature of her condition.
But... her condition isnt even that bad...
It's very much that bad, which the new scenes are mostly there to emphasize, I think. It's not physically debilitating at the moment - for gameplay reasons, I'm sure - and you can even throw soul coins on the fire with perfect safety. But she's in pain and her time is short.
The investment in these characters stories is proof of how good Larian’s writing can be. Most of us are not questioning that, on the contrary lol
But there is no question that Karlach’s storyline is much, much shorter and “plain” than other origins (just check the quest log lol after finishing the game). Whatever the reason for it, the thing that bothered me the most wasn’t even the possible endings for her - it was the path LEADING there.
I’m even playing as Karlach (aka avatar Karlach) now hoping that I’d get more bits about her personal story, and that some moments in the game would change/adapt due to her specific predicament.
In Act 1 this kind of happens. She gets some specific dialogue and moments, like after facing the paladins of Tyr. Playing as her, it made me excited to expect some more content that I might’ve not seen playing as a custom tav.
But, towards the end of Act 1, it seems Karlach-specific moments are essentially over. The story progression of her character, the fact that she is dying - that she could not be touched, then now she can - is mostly ignored by other origins (some don’t even comment on her dying - I’m looking at you, Astarion). There IS a bit extra content about her backstory in moonrise towers, but it feels gratuitous and disconnected.
Other origins have a crescendo in their stories, twists and turns, that leads to an end that, even when bitter sweet, fulfills you because the path leading there was rich and expertly crafted.
That’s where Karlach’s story fell short for me. She doesn’t have nearly as rich a path, or as carefully crafted interactions that fill you with satisfaction during the course of the game, building up to an ending that could’ve been sad, but fulfilling. In that sense, she does feel like an afterthought - and that’s not up to the standard of the rest of the game.
I think if the rest of the game was kind of sloppy or mediocre, we might’ve let many of these issues slide, or they’d blur with the rest. But the fact that we KNOW how good the writing is/can be (Astarion’s story arch is incredible, for example), made us - well, greedy. Greedy in a good way, I suppose, because we want every character in the game to have the same level of writing and development.
I’m not expecting tons of new content or anything, but I would like to see some rewritten dialogue options, some added reactions from origins and the like. Unrealistically, I’d love a full rewrite of Karlach’s questline and storyline to the same level of richness as Shadowheart’s. But it won’t happen.
Instead, if we could at least have avatar Karlach’s story plot holes covered or fixed - like, for example, Gale talking about dying to her as if she can’t understand what it feels to be at the brink of death when she herself is dying too lol (what an absolute self centered bastard he sounded), or Astarion confessing to Karlach to then completely ignore when she is told she will die (that’s cold even for him) - if moments like these, when it seems writers forgot about her, could be fixed, I’d already be content.
Playing as her is becoming a very strange experience after having such a rich experience as tav. I wish Larian would at least review and patch the path leading to Karlach’s ending as much - if not more - than the endings themselves.
Certainly, its undeniable, the work put in. But, there's more to be done with time and patience.
