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member
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OP
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Joined: Sep 2023
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I think by now it is no secret anymore that the game is unfinished, and act 3 is basically still EA. A lot of what was promised is not present in the game. Judging by what others have said here Larian has a history of this, and then releasing the real game as a definitive edition a year or so later. In the interest of getting the finished game after funding Larian through early access ( as we deserve), I believe we should compile an easy to access list of things that would deliver what was actually promised. This thread will be in relation to the title. The amount of players are bigger than the amount of devs after all. This is where we can really help. This game can still be the 10/10 it had the potential to be. THE FRAMEWORK IS THERE. Things that were promised: A finished game without inconsistencies and story breaking bugs: "we are taking our time making sure the game is really ready" Yeah 3 years of early access. The game has lot of inconsistencies either due to bugs or an unfinished state of coding or implementation. Choice and consequence: Did anyone feel they had much choice?? It mostly feels like you have the choice of having person x or y on your side. Exactly where was all the consequence? Pacing: This is a personal gripe. But I feel like the game leads me into doing sidestuff that never tie into the main story, or some of the content is so gated by being X level that you are forced to go sidequesting. I sometimes go 8 hours or so without a single tadpole dream or Dark Urge scene. WHAT? I plan on adding all feedback from the commments in the OP over time for easy access(if people like this idea), but let us focus on the essentials first, and leave the small stuff for later. The idea is, instead of the developers having to comb through 100s of threads, they have a summary here. It will give them more time to do actual work. SPOILER WARNING BELOW LIST DOWN BELOW
Inconsistencies/Pacing/still EA:
- The Emperor. Confesses to me that he has basically mindcontrolled stelmane and everyone else. Then afterwards he acts like this conversation never happened. FIX: The Emperor should act like a villain after showing himself as one or scene reworked if not intented
- The Emperor being Balduran makes no sense, but this has been discussed elsewhere. FIX: This should probably just be removed, it feels tact on last minute for added impact, and simply does not work
- Ending for Dark Urge tells me I have killed Shadowheart ( I didn't), but then 5 sec later, I am talking to her. FIX: Simple coding fix
- Shadowheart does not say a word as I leave to help Karlach in hell. Does she want to come? Does she want to stay? We were in love??.. FIX: A conversation befitting of lovers
- Orpheus has the power to nullify the Netherbrains nr1 strength, telepathic connections. Why on earth do we need him or anyone else to be a mindflayer? Because it calculates everything? Come on. It does not matter what it calculates when it cannot use its base function. FIX: Orpheus should be the no mindflayer route
- Tanner ( the gordian) tells me he is sad his daughter died and that we will avenge her by blowing up the factory. I clear the path and go back to get him. "I warned you of the consequences but you had to interfere. My daughter is dead because of you" That is a great bug. FIX: Coding fix
- Ansur quest (see above) FIX: Make relevant to main quest or remove alltogether. We should be able to recruit Ansur or he should vow to defeat us/impose a debuff/ something else?
- Multiple times in act 3 the same conversation gets repeated. Ones I remember: Karlach conversation after she tells you to find her later runs 2 times. I have to tell Minsc 2 times to stay in camp. FIX: Coding fix
- The Emperor does a 180 and joins the Netherbrain at first sight of an impasse. What he dedicated his entire life to avoid. FIX: This needs to be written differently. Emperor is willing to listen to Orpheus?
- I believe 3 min flat conversation on the docks is not a real ending. I believe it was stated somewhere that the game will have a 20 min epilogue. We want it. And the celebration. FIX: Proper ending to such a game should at least include the celebration with fun scenes like maybe arm wrestling with Minsc(strength check),drinking competition(con check?), and similar stuff just for fun. + 20 min ish epilogue.
- For pacing of story, we need an END THE NIGHT QUEUE for the camp. It seems many people are missing story moments because they are simply not resting enough. For RP reasons it makes no sense to rest more than necessary at the start of the game. FIX: Therefore the game needs to queue ALL CAMP END THE NIGHT SEQUENCES so that they can be watched on a single rest. Too much rest interrupts flow of narrative
- Why do companions let me make all their decisions for them? Even without persuasion checks? FIX: Your ability to influence the choice should be gated by approval. Maybe checks?
- In dark urge route, Shadowheart(or other romance) says absolutely nothing as you are murdered by bhaal, or when you are lying on the floor dead. Tone deaf. Completely destroys immersion. FIX: Romance should be running to you, holding you, crying, screaming, etc
- Trim side questing that does not tie into main story. Lack of pacing? Personal experience 10-8 ish hours between story progressions. Game frequently leads you unto side stuff that has no bearing on story if RPing too hard. FIX: Add cut content that ties into main story? `Remove side quest material that does not tie into main story? Or make clear if a quest will have no bearing on main story?
Choices (we would like to see)
- One choice that really sticks out to me was when I found Mizora in the pod. Perfect moment to extort a devil for power. I am only allowed to break Wylls pact or free her? Make this make sense in a game where they have talked about choice and consequence in every single panel from hell. FIX: Seems like the perfect opportunity to get that + 2 permanent ability score.
- We are being railroaded into making someone a mindflayer, despite some of us playing the entire game for this not to happen. So much for choice.. X mindflayer, Z mindflayer, or Y mindflayer.. Remove tadpole and someone still has to be a mindflayer? Why does Orpheus turn without a tadpole??? FIX: Orpheus route involves no mindflayer/kill both route?
- When I play fantasy I am always into power. Why cant I reforge the crown of karsus instead of Gale(in the case MC is also a wizard/sorcerer/warlock)? This really annoyed me tbh. FIX: Option to take the power of the crown for yourself. Without needing the Netherbrain.
- Shars mirror is a good example of RPing for power, but, it is never clear what is actually happening. Will I fail a check if I do this? Does it carry no consequence later? FIX: Clarification - Karlach's infernal engine does not get fixed, no matter what. FIX: People want the ability to fix this. Deal with X devil. Soulcoin bargain. Gondain technology. God interference?
- Why am I not allowed to take the Wyvern poison instead of becoming a mindflayer during the "you are found scene" with the netherbrain? Why did I say yes at all. FIX: Suicide option
- Astarion ascension/ gale crown scenario. Hijack ascension instead of Astarion/Cazador? (TO add on to crown scenario above). Seriously it makes no sense as MC to just watching everyone else gain power and have no option yourself. FIX: Add different scenario for player character? Hijack ascension/steal crown/anything else?
- Cannot save Gur childern no matter what? Why is this even a quest? There is no way to succeed.. Fix: An actual option to save the Gur children.
Consequences (we would like to see)
- I tried so hard to not use Illithid powers after they kept talking about choice and consequence, turns out, I was only trolling myself, oh well there is no REAL consequence. FIX: Consequence, loosing sense of self, not remembering, brain eating urge?
- I brought Karlach to the house of hope without thinking, when she spoke I thought to myself. Oh S***t. I shouldn't have brought her. Zariel is gonna take her. Or something. Turns out, nevermind. Mystra knows we opened a book but Zariel does not know Karlach is in hell? FIX: Something like you have X rounds until X companion is lost would be nice.
- I feel like facing off with someone like Raphael should have consequence for a lvl 10-12 party. Someone dies or is imprisoned?? Unless you are able to bypass him on the way out? YOU ARE IN HIS LAIR. FIX: Something like you have X rounds until X companion is lost would be nice.
- Dark Urge route, early choices have 0 consequence. Yes you might kill some companions but what effect does it have on the Dark Urge ending? Nothing. You get option resist urge or option give in to urge regrdless. Being evil all game should lock out your chance to resist urge. And vice versa. FIX: Add more variations?
Many people have wanted better end game content for Minthara, Karlach, Astarion etc. (imo it is all companions). FIX: Implement better content. But completing maybe some of them makes it harder to complete the others. Should be possible to complete all if necessary checks are passed and proper quest routes taken. Punished if not.
- Orin kidnapps companion no consequence? Simple persuasion check not enough? FIX: If you take too long to save X companion. Companion dies. Looses a hand? etc
Last edited by Surge90sf; 09/09/23 10:19 PM. Reason: Added spoiler tags
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Joined: Sep 2019
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I'm not sure if this is the cause of repeated conversations, but I have had A TON of repeated conversations in acts 1 and 2, both with NPCs and companions in the playthrough where I used Disguise Self a lot. It seemed to me like using Disguise Self reset the conversation, even for my companions (which were standing right beside me). Also my companions should know it's me in disguise and not repeat their lines at camp  PS: If mind flayers don't have souls, why can we use Speak with Dead on them? Check mate, mindflayer haters!
Last edited by Raz415; 07/09/23 06:57 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
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I did not know we were railroaded into having someone become a mind flayer, that is frankly ridiculous...
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Just a quick note. Red Queen, sorry, Im new, I dont know how to put spoiler tags : D
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Interestingly, this never happened to me at all in act 1 and 2. But all the time in the 3rd...
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
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okay, I am reading up on the endings right now (I also dont know how to use spoiler tags, I can never figure it out)
And like... Shouldnt the choice on who to make a mind flayer like... be a choice of anyone in the party? shouldnt each party memer be a viable option for that? why is it only the player or Karlach? Did they just not want to make these unique endings?
Frankly the endings need a lot of improvement it seems, with both the cut epilogues re-implemented, and a lot more variety added.
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addict
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Joined: Oct 2020
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I found out that fi I talk to Jaheira while controlling Halsin, Jaheira talks to me as if I'm meeting her in Last Light Inn instead of the end of Act 3 I'm on.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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In Act 3, I'm frequently drawn to completing the sidequests, anticipating a more satisfying conclusion. However, despite the effort, it's evident that these quests don't significantly alter the ending. It's surprising that the game doesn't provide ending slides to mirror our choices; this seems like an overlooked design choice. Currently, Act 3 tends to be quite exhausting and ruins the overall game experience for me.
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Joined: Sep 2023
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This is what I tried to explain in the OP. The Ansur quest is a good example of this.
[spoiler][/spoiler] For RP reasons it makes NO sense to ignore the potential dragon on your side. But the conclusion to this quest does nothing but tear you away from the main story. And like you said, I feel like this is a recurring theme in act 3. Quests just keep piling on..
Last edited by Surge90sf; 07/09/23 07:30 PM.
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Does this happen ONLY with Halsin?
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And like... Shouldnt the choice on who to make a mind flayer like... be a choice of anyone in the party? shouldnt each party memer be a viable option for that? why is it only the player or Karlach? Did they just not want to make these unique endings? Totally agree. I mean, there are even better options story wise for the end here. If we completely ignore the plot hole that is the Emperor giving up to join the Netherbrain (he should have at least attempted to convince Orpheus to help the cause, which he probably would have agreed to considering he himself volunteers to become a mind flayer should the player refuse), we still have the strange detail of not having Lae'zel offer to make the sacrifice. It doesn't fit her character to let Orpheus basically kill himself to save the world when Lae'zel could have done it, become the hero of her people and liberate the prince of comets. If not that, Voss. Where's he? Where are the honor guards he had assembled? When Orpheus for some reason (did I miss the explanation for how that's possible?) can turn non-tadpoled people (himself) into mind flayers, he could have just turned Voss, or any of his honor guards to mind flayers and finish the fight. I mean, even if having a tadpole is a must, there are plenty to be found around the place. Just go kill a random person and there's probably one there they can use. Having players make impossible choices aren't effective when the reasoning behind them falls flat. I love impossible choices, I really do, but there has to be a reason behind the impossibility of it all. Here there are other choices, sometimes better choices. So, the choices that are presented to us, the player, just comes off as dumb and badly written. I work as a developmental editor for novel writers and to be honest, I would have ripped this ending to shreds and told the author to redo it (in nicer words of course, I'm actually a rather kind person).
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Joined: Sep 2023
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I found out that fi I talk to Jaheira while controlling Halsin, Jaheira talks to me as if I'm meeting her in Last Light Inn instead of the end of Act 3 I'm on. I don't think that's the only instance this is happening. I've had plenty of conversations where dialogues that wasn't relevant or even directed at the right person popped up. For one, I talked to Astarion after finishing Shadowheart's quest, and he talked to me as if I was Shadowheart and we were still in ACT 2. Talking to Shadowheart at this point did not mention anything about the end of her personal quest, and she was just talking to me about flowers and having the same lines as she'd had earlier in ACT 3. Gale keps talking about things in ACT 2 also and only has dialogue options that relates to things that happened then that are completely irrelevant, and they don't go away if I click on them either. And if you go around talking to people as other people, it still ends up being Tav in the dialogue, but what they say is directed at the companion I chose, but the subtitles are directed at Tav. Companions doesn't acknowledge things that happens around them and Jaheira's still has options to talk about the whereabouts of Minsc despite him standing there beside her. So, basically, ACT 3 is broken in a lot of ways still. Which is unfortunate.
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I am pretty sure Orpheus would rather join the emperor than having to become a mindflayer himself (which he hates) and not being able to return to his people. That this is not a choice is just not .. good enough..
The Emperor even says someone has to become a mindflayer. He better than all should know Orpheus would have liked to avoid that. Makes him peacing out even more weird.
Last edited by Surge90sf; 07/09/23 08:04 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Adding stuff as I start to remember, and also I will add feedback from comments.
Yes the companion to companion dynamic is completely absent and it is so immersion breaking it is going to need its own thread..
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Joined: Nov 2020
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Dear Larian, can you please really hear what's being said by OP? There could be minor disagreement on few points like Wyvern poison (for example,Tav just do not have the time to uncork that poison before being hit by Absolute's will), but overall - not only valid and logical, but neccessary adjustments are being proposed. Please, do not discard such a valuable feedback as above.
For me the utmost importance is "many scenes per 1 long rest", and Orpheus/Emperor arc (from it's start, too much railroading, Orpheus is in no position to stay ignorant if we do not wholly take Emperor's side from the start). And please. Make our choices made during the game matter _more_. Right now we are lacking it regatding to side quests, ending, railroading like it never happened". It is not honest towards your players. Do I need to explain myself clearer? If so, just tell.
All the reaction to the things happening and plots advancing has to be re-checked again, too, even though it's incredible amoint of work. But without that, the logic of the narrative is simply being broken sometimes. Can we live with that? Sure, but the whole magic buildup you were creating masterfully just goes pff in times like that.
Besides, it's painful to see a great amount of work by talented people coming apart because of not-good-enough QA polishing.
We understand you are tired from development and the scope of the project is great, but once again, put yourselves in our shoes. We love your game and would like to see it polished to coherency in all important matters.
Last edited by Ellenhard; 08/09/23 02:58 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Would just like to say, Larian I too also love the game, but I can not bring myself to replay it or recommend it if all of act 3 is unfinished and parts of the story are non-sensical. I want this to be the RPG of the next 20 years, but right now it is not. Like he says the masterful build up just goes flat. The Dark Urge is a good example of this. It is building up and then you hit act 3. Boom "you are suddenly hit with a rush of memories, you were formerly the greatest assassin of Bhaal". Ah.. Did the two guys talking about buying apples jog my memory? Great..(Literally happens in the Wyrms Crossing in plain day light)
Last edited by Surge90sf; 08/09/23 10:34 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2023
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Just a quick note. Red Queen, sorry, Im new, I dont know how to put spoiler tags : D [ spoiler ] place text here [ /spoiler ] without the spaces in the brackets. And change the dark blue text. You make some good points but not good enough to go blind over.
Last edited by Beechams; 08/09/23 10:43 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2023
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You want brighter colours or what ? I wanted to separate issue and answer without adding more text, because it is going to become a giant wall if people add their feedback.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2021
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So in addition to the items you mentioned, I would add:
1. Modding support 2. Support to build additional modules/adventures.
Although I think these two are a problem with the collab with WOTC, which I don't think has worked out very well. Larian and WOTC have very different corporate cultures and values and likely WOTC doesn't see the value in using this as a platform to build up interest in D&D by letting people have good mod tools.
Blackheifer
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Hmm. I understand many people want this but this thread is about the story and certain categories there under, so I can not add it here.
A quick question regarding this though, is this something they promised would be in the game as well?
Last edited by Surge90sf; 09/09/23 10:06 PM.
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