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After giving it some more thought, I wonder if they couldn't have worked in both versions of the Dream visitor. What if, when being rejected by the player, Daisy doesn't return and instead we encounter the Guardian during the next vision. Would also help ease in the player to the cosmic side of this struggle, i felt a bit shellshocked by my first Guardian interaction, when i was expecting a melancholic encounter down by the river.
Edit: It could have even been a struggle between both, one representing the Emperor, one the Absolute.
Last edited by Vlad the Inhaler; 02/09/23 09:10 PM.
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i felt a bit shellshocked by my first Guardian interaction, when i was expecting a melancholic encounter down by the river. Same for me. It's a dream but it's just outlandish in a bad way and its atmosphere clashes with the rest of the game at that point. No idea why they had to include that giant skull with RGB lights in space either. The whole setup is weird. The scene is trying to convey some sense of urgency when you don't even know the stakes and then it turns out that it was just a couple of gith monks banging against the wall in the end. Everything involving these dream sequences is just so jarring and quite frankly... bad.
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Firstly, this is a follow-up to a post I made on Reddit. But as Reddit doesn't exactly foster longform, extended discussion on broad topics, I'm going to put the next bunch of thoughts here, developing on some posts and threads I've put up recently. I'm going to try and avoid any unmarked spoilers but, ultimately, this is a topic you shouldn't really engage with unless you've finished the game. Secondly, while I'm going to be critical in this post, I'm not casting any aspersions on Larian's writers or the wonderful game they've created. That said, as a professional writer and editor, I am quite curious about the changes made and the justifications thereof, as I do feel they reflect a severe break from whatever their original artistic vision was. If I've gotten anything wrong, do correct me. To lay it out as directly as possible: I feel the replacement of Daisy with the Guardian/the Emperor resulted in more significant changes to the narrative of Baldur's Gate 3 than most realize. On a personal level, I did not think highly of the change. I felt the Guardian/Emperor was too simplistic in their motivations and, as a result of trying to fit the concept of Daisy into a benevolent role, resulted in a surprisingly weak and uninteresting personality for a character in such a prominent position. But more on that in a second! Essentially, the problem resulted from a character that had to inherit all the baggage of the Daisy concept, yet function in a very different role, or variety of roles, that was far less consistent. So, let's get into it. 'DAISY'
I'm operating off the assumption as the comments on the Reddit thread speculated, that Daisy was supposed to be the Absolute using you as a pawn against the Chosen. For those of you who are unaware, Daisy was the seductive figure you created in Early Access, the person your character dreamed about. Daisy was not the character's name, as far as can be determined, but the internal name of the entity within the game files. Here's a brief selection of the evidence that I feel supports that position, but I do not consider it exhaustive. - The songs Down by the River and The Power reflect the circumstances of meeting Daisy by the river and the power coming from them. Down by the River is a prominent theme and motif that has no direct relevance in BG3 as-is.
- The voice you hear in character generation is very similar to the Absolute, if not the same. It would also explain who is asking you these questions, and be a fun easter egg for repeat playthroughs.
- Daisy's behavior fits the idea of the Absolute seeking to free itself from the Chosen by offering you power while concealing that it is an evil Elder Brain, and why it attempts to convince you with visions of Baldur's Gate burning.
- The end of the game, with the Emperor's abrupt turn to join the Absolute and have the dream Guardians fighting you atop the Elder Brain, reflects the idea of the character you create having a link to the Absolute -- but more on that in a second.
- The evil ending (or an ending) would constitute joining with the Elder Brain and remaining down by the river with Daisy forever while the world burned. ("Don't wake me up, just leave me there dreaming..")
- Wyll's rewrite drastically changed his relationship to Mizora which had parallels with the protagonist and Daisy: he made a hasty deal not knowing what Mizora was, and while he wanted to break it, he found the power he had gained too useful to stop.
- The choice of being branded by the Mark of the Absolute takes on a wonderful irony if you're unknowingly communicating with the Absolute in your dreams.
- Both Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 involved extended dream sequences with the malevolent source of the protagonist's powers communicating through proxies or visions.
Exactly why Daisy was changed to the Guardian is unclear. A potential possibility is that it was due to players not engaging with them or finding them to be suspicious, which I believe is what Larian has stated as the reason. I hope this is not the case as I feel it reflects a surprising lack of confidence on Larian's part concerning their original artistic vision. It could be that Wizards of the Coast did not like the idea as a whole or some aspect of it. It could be that the idea was simply too complex and had to be scrapped and replaced. But whatever the change was, it appears to have happened so late and so abruptly that it isn't reflected in the art book, neither Emperor nor Guardian. Either way, the rewrite of Daisy wasn't so much a rewrite as a wholesale replacement. The nebulous, ominous Daisy was replaced by a much more openly benevolent figure -- the Guardian and, through them, the Emperor. It was meeting the Emperor which diminished my enthusiasm for the central plot of Baldur's Gate 3, and I'll outline my reasons now. THE GUARDIAN/THE EMPERORThe Guardian is too nakedly helpful. They show up, offer you incredible powers, and insist you must use them to save the world. In the end, they inherit the supicious aspect of Daisy but without any genuine attempt to allow the player to engage with them in that sense (gone are the days of being able to throttle them, for example.) By the end of the story, you're in a 'but thou must' situation concerning turning into an illithid to defeat the Elder Brain.
While it appears that your relationship with Daisy is the catalyst for your powers, with the Guardian it involves what I can only describe as 'putting tadpoles in your tadpole so you can tadpole while you tadpole.' However, the text is unclear whether it actually involves putting additional tadpoles in your brain (as the UI indicates) or is more of a psychic absorption. Reactivity is also minimal, especially with the Astral Tadpole, hinting at the late/abrupt change. A subtle change is the removal of some of the negative responses to using the tadpole powers ("You feel some part of yourself slipping away...") beyond one early on.
However, the deeper problem is that the character inherits Daisy's baggage of being an antagonistic force while being positioned in the role of, well, a guardian. An example of this baggage is the 'dream waifu' creation, which raises questions as to why the Emperor chooses to appear in that guise when he was the famous adventurer Balduran. I'd say this is because Larian did not want to cut the whole concept of creating a second character. While it is understandable that the Emperor conceals his nature as a Mind Flayer, it makes less sense that he invents a wholly new persona to do it. It invites suspicion of his motives that never actually develops.
This note of needless supicion, there because it was an aspect of Daisy, is what bothered me most about The Emperor. He is entirely trustworthy, unless the player decides to view him with mistrust or not hold up their end of the bargain. The Emperor's goal aligns perfectly with your own: destruction of the Chosen and the Absolute. While he does have a dark side, it never actually is visited upon the player. Even when you turn on him, he is mostly begging for you to reconsider.
The Emperor is an odd collection of traits. He must be all of these things simultaniously: your trustworthy savior, your suspicious benefactor, your source of Illithid abilities, your temptor 'deal with the devil' with the Astral tadpole/further loss of humanity, your potential romantic interest, a spectre from the past, your ally against the Absolute and, oddly, a potential ally to the Absolute.
The last one is particularly odd. Despite wishing for nothing else but to destroy the Absolute, the prospect of freeing Orpheus drives him into the arms of the Absolute (only for Orpheus to turn out to be incredibly reasonable about the whole illithid thing.) This is difficult to comprehend, you'd assume The Emperor would perhaps act to stop you freeing Orpheus, to try and fight Orpheus once free, or simply flee for his life... But he actively goes and assists the Absolute. It's odd until you see the final fight involves your dream Guardians. It's a sign that Daisy was tied deeply with the Absolute, and it was such an element of the climax that Larian felt it still needed to happen. I think it's pretty easy to envision a big showdown atop the Elder Brain against your Daisy and the dream visitors of your party members. Notably, your party members no longer receive unique visitors, however, (eg. Vlaakith for Lae'zel) which lessens some of the draw of replaying as an origin character.
That said, I feel the Emperor existed in some form. The Balduran revelation feels too big for it to be a late addition. It would not surprise me if the Emperor/Balduran was one of the allies you were going to potentially encounter in Act 2 or 3, and recruit to fight against the Absolute, if you could believe that the legendary Balduran had truly become a Mind Flayer and truly wanted to fight against the Absolute. Only for The Emperor to inherit Daisy's role in the story when they were tossed out. The difference being that Daisy was never supposed to be particularly trustworthy. I am still trying to work out the exact order of events that led to the start of the plot in Baldur's Gate 3, but The Emperor complicates things substantially. From what I've been able to determine, Gortash arranged a tadpoled strike team led by The Emperor to take a nautiloid and steal the Astral Prism as it was the only weapon that could disrupt their control of the Elder Brain. While The Emperor claims the Prism freed him, I believe the Absolute states it released him deliberately in order for him to bring the Prism into play somehow (another little tidbit for the Absolute as Daisy thought.) Somehow, the Prism ends up in Shadowheart's hands and she ends up in an Illithid tube. Somehow, many additional people are picked up from across Faerun despite it being a secret mission of utmost importance. And somehow the Emperor ends up in the Astral Prism, after possibly tadpoling Lae'zel and the protagonist.
That's right. To confuse matters further, The Emperor seemingly appears in the opening cutscene as the Mind Flayer who tadpoles the protagonist/s. This is because the Mind Flayer there matches his appearance with his unique armor and is the only Mind Flayer to do so. This is likely a result of needing to find a unique appearance for the Emperor late in the development process. It is unlikely it is supposed to be The Emperor himself as it is never mentioned (and creates more questions than it solves.) However, it is also possible that, perhaps before he inherited the Guardian role, the Balduran Mind Flayer was the one who implanted you -- wouldn't that make for an interesting decision if he was to be a possible ally?
Additionally, the relationship between The Emperor and the Astral Prism is confusing. His ability to hop in and out of the Astral Prism at will is odd and inconsistent. I feel like for much of the development, the Astral Prism was home only to Orpheus and it was merely proximity to the Prism that kept you safe, no need for The Emperor to be involved. How this works with the big scene at the creche isn't clear, but it could've been a late change (or just involved Vlaakith trying to get Orpheus.)
However, I think the opening cutscene makes a lot more sense if you think it was the Brain going rogue for a brief period (echoing the thoughts by the Chosen that it is getting harder to control) and creating a secret weapon against its captors. One that it needs to search for in the wake of the crash (the first Daisy dream), one that is carrying a weapon it desperately needs. And that... is basically it. Have at it. Again, just to make it clear -- Baldur's Gate 3 is a wonderful accomplishment, but I genuinely believe that whatever it was they were crafting before this substantial rewrite had the prospect to be even better. There's also a broader topic to be had about the other various changes that gave BG3 a very different tone (as mentioned in that Reddit post) and I think exemplified in the third song ("I Want to Live") but, hey. This is long enough, isn't it? That is.. So much better than what we got.. I also touch briefly on this plot point in my thread over here : https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=892461#Post892461Though less eloquently and more frustratingly.. And if I may add on to the theory you have. I dislike Larian nullifying the character I made. So, what if Daisy is actually a real person. Used by the Netherbrain as a means to influence you. " A middle girl?" Seeing as an Illithid is not like a real person it would make sense that in order to tempt you they would have to find a way to make you relate. And you get the chance to free her at some point, maybe? Maybe you can see signs of her breaking free temporarily from the Netherbrain? And if I may just add, I really dont like the emperor character. Taking an inherently evil creature and trying to convince us this is some kind of moral enlightenment journey or whatever. I love complex stories, but please leave something, black and white. Though I got the scene where he admits to mindcontrolling people and he calls you his puppet. But then all of a sudden he acts like the benevolent character for the rest of the game. No idea if this is bugged or badly executed. That is my take.
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That is.. So much better than what we got.. I also touch briefly on this plot point in my thread over here : https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=892461#Post892461Though less eloquently and more frustratingly.. And if I may add on to the theory you have. I dislike Larian nullifying the character I made. So, what if Daisy is actually a real person. Used by the Netherbrain as a means to influence you. " A middle girl?" Seeing as an Illithid is not like a real person it would make sense that in order to tempt you they would have to find a way to make you relate. And you get the chance to free her at some point, maybe? Maybe you can see signs of her breaking free temporarily from the Netherbrain? And if I may just add, I really dont like the emperor character. Taking an inherently evil creature and trying to convince us this is some kind of moral enlightenment journey or whatever. I love complex stories, but please leave something, black and white. Though I got the scene where he admits to mindcontrolling people and he calls you his puppet. But then all of a sudden he acts like the benevolent character for the rest of the game. No idea if this is bugged or badly executed. That is my take. I feel like Daisy would've been more than a mere illusion, just given the romantic nature of the theme songs and some of the specific lyrics implies a sense of mutual change. "We'd pick our way, overhear more in changing You into me and me into you I meant to say that I love you or maybe Fear like a flame, what's happening to me?" As for the Emperor, the infamous scene where he admits to being a monster is more complicated than people give it credit for. The big thing to remember is that, at that point, the Emperor is getting exasperated with the player. The discussion is, basically, paraphrased: "I don't trust you." "What if I show you my thoughts, will you trust me then?" "I'll never believe anything you show me." So... why does the Emperor show you something heinous? Because he's provoking you. He shows you something bad and the player, after saying they won't believe him, probably leap on the 'I knew it! You're a monster!' answer and, yes, then the Emperor basically has an exasperated tantrum. But he's right, too. He could just mind control you and make you do what he wants. But he doesn't. He goes out of his way to not do that. If you pull a dog's tail for weeks, and it barks at you, is it a monster? Or should you have known better? There are other tidbits that hint that the version of events he reveals is not true, such as Stelmane apparently living a pretty okay life after the "Mind Flayer attack", and that the Knights of the Shield were apparently a devil-worshipping group.
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Well. I never said it wasn't complex.
What I meant is that I really hate the idea of making a mindflayer into a good aligned character. And how he mysteriously retains his personality somehow? Im no DnD expert, but isnt Ceremorphosis supposed to be a seed that acts exactly like a parasite while it grows and eventually replaces ALL THAT YOU ARE, down to the very last cell. Your brain is devoured, and your body is destroyed. How on earth can you remember anything?
And the Balduran "twist" is the biggest meh twist Ive seen for a long time. This "special mindflayer" just so happens to be this particular character from a 1000 years ago, what are the odds? And if he is himself why does he never seem to give a shit about BG? And what was the point of this quest exactly? It does nothing but ruin the flow of the narrative. You can not recruit Ansur, the fact the Emperor is Balduran has 0 impact on the story. Am I the only one that feels the flow of the narrative suffered because of too much sidestuff with little substance or relation(actual impact) to the main story?
Now I like complex characers and dynamics. I for example liked Fall From Grace in Planescape. I liked Morrigan in DA:O.
But a mindflayer? For reasons above it makes no sense. And I also feel like SOME things should be kept black and white. I like making complex decisions but sometimes it feels good to just go:" this thing is evil, im gonna kill it. The end." A mindflayer is a perfect example of this. A being whos very existence is parasitic. They are basically like a parasitic hive mind.
If everything is "complex" then nothing is special.
Last edited by Surge90sf; 06/09/23 09:40 PM.
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Discussion of the Stelmane cutscene. There are other tidbits that hint that the version of events he reveals is not true, such as Stelmane apparently living a pretty okay life after the "Mind Flayer attack", and that the Knights of the Shield were apparently a devil-worshipping group. There is a note in the Elfsong basement that says Stelmane suffered a mysterious illness that only abated when she was visited by an indistinct friend nobody could remember. So the vision the Emperor shows you is corroborated by an outside source and must be true. Overall I find speculation based on theme song lyrics to be overly far fetched. Daisy as a villain is so straightforwardly obvious that it's uninteresting, which is why they were rewritten. Nobody cuts something because it was a good idea, and inventing some grand theory based on single datamined dialogue lines doesn't mean that's what the original intent was. However, (comments on endgame events) The non-decision between freeing Orpheus and trusting the Emperor is definitely stupid.
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And the Balduran "twist" is the biggest meh twist Ive seen for a long time. This "special mindflayer" just so happens to be this particular character from a 1000 years ago, what are the odds? And if he is himself why does he never seem to give a shit about BG? And what was the point of this quest exactly? It does nothing but ruin the flow of the narrative. You can not recruit Ansur, the fact the Emperor is Balduran has 0 impact on the story. I feel like they wove the whole Balduran thing into the Emperor backstory exactly because the character got a late rewrite and they probably felt like they needed to give it a bit more weight, hence the inflated backstory to prop him up. It definitely felt weird though and made me roll my eyes and I'm not even invested in DnD/Baldur's Gate lore.
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I think you nailed it here.
And I too, am not that invested in DnD lore. I love the lore, but I've only played some of the games. And could not help but feel the strong urge to roll my eyes at this "reveal" as well. For this scene I hope they just completely remove it, and move this whole Emperor plotline back in the direction of this OP.
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I think you nailed it here.
And I too, am not that invested in DnD lore. I love the lore, but I've only played some of the games. And could not help but feel the strong urge to roll my eyes at this "reveal" as well. For this scene I hope they just completely remove it, and move this whole Emperor plotline back in the direction of this OP. That would be ideal. I think it's going to be really hard to bring Act 3's ending up to snuff without fixing this particular character because ultimately most of that act's plot beats are couched by him and it's impossible to address these weaker moments in the story without addressing the main character that delivers them.
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Agreed. Now for all those who love the Emperor character, I believe there is a place for him in the story. But not in the current form.
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As for the Emperor, the infamous scene where he admits to being a monster is more complicated than people give it credit for. The big thing to remember is that, at that point, the Emperor is getting exasperated with the player. The discussion is, basically, paraphrased:
"I don't trust you."
"What if I show you my thoughts, will you trust me then?"
"I'll never believe anything you show me."
So... why does the Emperor show you something heinous? Because he's provoking you. He shows you something bad and the player, after saying they won't believe him, probably leap on the 'I knew it! You're a monster!' answer and, yes, then the Emperor basically has an exasperated tantrum. But he's right, too. He could just mind control you and make you do what he wants. But he doesn't. He goes out of his way to not do that. If you pull a dog's tail for weeks, and it barks at you, is it a monster? Or should you have known better?
There are other tidbits that hint that the version of events he reveals is not true, such as Stelmane apparently living a pretty okay life after the "Mind Flayer attack", and that the Knights of the Shield were apparently a devil-worshipping group. The last bit isn't really true though. If you read the patient log in the parts of the Elfsong tavern basement that connect to the undercity, it is revealed that without the Emperor's control Stelmane became lethargic, indicating that she's just a hollowed out puppet used by the Emperor. So yeah, the vision the Emperor reveals to us in anger seems to align more with reality - even if it reaffirms our personal biases. [A journal stamped with the official seal of Duke Belynne Stelmane. It appears to be an attendant's log of the care given during the Duke's ongoing illness. The most recent entries detail a deterioration in the Duke's condition.]
Can't explain the relapse. Duke lacks appetite, awareness, or interest in anything. Occasionally asks after visitor, which I suspect might be cause of current condition.
Duke used to receive visitor in private every tenday - always hooded and cloaked, always shown in and left to attend Duke privately. No luck in finding - oddly enough, can't recall visitor's gender, or even stature - could be half-orc or halfling for all I know.
Hoping for their return - visits appeared to ease the Duke's mind and body greatly.
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As for the Emperor, the infamous scene where he admits to being a monster is more complicated than people give it credit for. The big thing to remember is that, at that point, the Emperor is getting exasperated with the player. The discussion is, basically, paraphrased:
"I don't trust you."
"What if I show you my thoughts, will you trust me then?"
"I'll never believe anything you show me."
So... why does the Emperor show you something heinous? Because he's provoking you. He shows you something bad and the player, after saying they won't believe him, probably leap on the 'I knew it! You're a monster!' answer and, yes, then the Emperor basically has an exasperated tantrum. But he's right, too. He could just mind control you and make you do what he wants. But he doesn't. He goes out of his way to not do that. If you pull a dog's tail for weeks, and it barks at you, is it a monster? Or should you have known better?
There are other tidbits that hint that the version of events he reveals is not true, such as Stelmane apparently living a pretty okay life after the "Mind Flayer attack", and that the Knights of the Shield were apparently a devil-worshipping group. The last bit isn't really true though. If you read the patient log in the parts of the Elfsong tavern basement that connect to the undercity, it is revealed that without the Emperor's control Stelmane became lethargic, indicating that she's just a hollowed out puppet used by the Emperor. So yeah, the vision the Emperor reveals to us in anger seems to align more with reality - even if it reaffirms our personal biases. [A journal stamped with the official seal of Duke Belynne Stelmane. It appears to be an attendant's log of the care given during the Duke's ongoing illness. The most recent entries detail a deterioration in the Duke's condition.]
Can't explain the relapse. Duke lacks appetite, awareness, or interest in anything. Occasionally asks after visitor, which I suspect might be cause of current condition.
Duke used to receive visitor in private every tenday - always hooded and cloaked, always shown in and left to attend Duke privately. No luck in finding - oddly enough, can't recall visitor's gender, or even stature - could be half-orc or halfling for all I know.
Hoping for their return - visits appeared to ease the Duke's mind and body greatly. Nah this does not make sense the more I think about it. I am telling you to trust me. And I really need your help, but you wont trust me. So, I am going to deal with this by affirming your distrust with a vision where I am the villain, even though I am not. Does this make sense? This is over complicated to the point it does not make sense. And he can not mindcontrol us can he? He is not the elder brain. He does have leverage in the sense that we can not know at that point in the story if it is proximity to Orpheus that grant us protection or the Emperor "redirecting his power". And then ofc, since act 3 is still EA. He just continues on like that conversation never happened. Great.. And to add on to the whole Emperor storyline, I would really like if they removed the scene where he saves you from the fall at the start of act 1. I really dislike the fact I was in the palm of his hand from the start (90% of the game) without having a say in a game where you are supposed to have choice. It does not feel very heroic when you would have been dead if it wasnt for "X" thing/person to this extent. I would not mind so much if it was Daisy who in some form broke free from mindcontrol for a second, so you can return the favour by freeing her later.. Or.. Something.. But, I am ranting..
Last edited by Surge90sf; 07/09/23 03:59 PM.
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Nah this does not make sense the more I think about it.
I am telling you to trust me. And I really need your help, but you wont trust me. So, I am going to deal with this by affirming your distrust with a vision where I am the villain, even though I am not. Does this make sense? This is over complicated to the point it does not make sense. And he can not mindcontrol us can he? He is not the elder brain. He does have leverage in the sense that we can not know at that point in the story if it is proximity to Orpheus that grant us protection or the Emperor "redirecting his power".
And then ofc, since act 3 is still EA. He just continues on like that conversation never happened. Great..
And to add on to the whole Emperor storyline, I would really like if they removed the scene where he saves you from the fall at the start of act 1. I really dislike the fact I was in the palm of his hand from the start (90% of the game) without having a say in a game where you are supposed to have choice. It does not feel very heroic when you would have been dead if it wasnt for "X" thing/person to this extent. I would not mind so much if it was Daisy who in some form broke free from mindcontrol for a second, so you can return the favour by freeing her later.. Or.. Something..
But, I am ranting.. Trust me, I get the sentiment. Being at the mercy of a character you dislike and distrust since the start for basically the entire duration of the game without any option to escape that relationship sort of feels like shit. The situation with the Emperor ends up feeling more parasitic than the actual tadpole with the added bonus of being forced to interact with him. With Daisy at least you could block her influence by not using the power of the tadpole. With the full release's story you're just stuck with the Emperor no matter what you do and he lets you know that without him you wouldn't be able to survive let alone get shit done which naturally undermines the heroic fantasy. It's an understandable thing to be frustrated about. I mean, this is a guy who shows up half-naked in your dreams and calls himself "your knight in shining armor" and you can't get rid of him until the last 15 minutes of the game?  In regards to the mind control thing, I find it hard to believe that the Emperor could actually do it even if he wanted to. If Orpheus' magic blocks out the Elder Brain's power to mind control us, the same magic will likely block out any lesser being's attempt to do so as well.
Last edited by Nerovar; 08/09/23 12:42 AM.
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Yes you word it quite well here.
I would also like to add two more things here:
How long are tadpoles interesting? I think I missed the opportunity to remove it early the first playhrough because Laezel died. Tbh I got so sick of the tadpole by act 2, it was just frustrating as from an RP perspective (I like to RP as myself), removing that parasite would be prio nr 1. Especially considering you don't know there is anything that special about the ceremorphosis process early in the story.
And the more I think about the Emperor his storyline does not make sense. Why does he just sit in the prism? Why doesn't he help? Until the royal guard is slain it makes sense , but what is the point after? Orpheus has been sealed for 100s of years.. If he can provide protection for us he can protect himself (from the Elder brain). Unless of course it is indeed just proximity to Orpheus that provides protection, in which case, again, why can't he help?
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Yes you word it quite well here.
I would also like to add two more things here:
How long are tadpoles interesting? I think I missed the opportunity to remove it early the first playhrough because Laezel died. Tbh I got so sick of the tadpole by act 2, it was just frustrating as from an RP perspective (I like to RP as myself), removing that parasite would be prio nr 1. Especially considering you don't know there is anything that special about the ceremorphosis process early in the story.
And the more I think about the Emperor his storyline does not make sense. Why does he just sit in the prism? Why doesn't he help? Until the royal guard is slain it makes sense , but what is the point after? Orpheus has been sealed for 100s of years.. If he can provide protection for us he can protect himself (from the Elder brain). Unless of course it is indeed just proximity to Orpheus that provides protection, in which case, again, why can't he help?
You cant remove the tadpole. That feature apparently existed in earlier versions in the game, but since tadpoles were turned into exclusively positive features/powerups all possibilities to remove them got cut as Larian wants you to use and level the tadpole to be "less boring".
Hence why the game quickly starts to ignore the tadpole. You are not supposed to think about all the inconsistencies in the story and how quickly the game turns from needing to remove it fast at all cost to snorting more of them without reprecussions.
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Me personally I just wish the Emperor didn't have plot armor and you could murder his whiny ass
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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I actually prefer the Emperor over Daisy. With Daisy it was clear that this was to tempt you into using the tadpole powers as you got more and more dreams by using the tadpole and in an early dream (I never used the tadpoles very often) you are presented with a burning Baldurs Gate vision and this will be your "reward" - I mean this already screams to me as player who likes to play good to avoid and further reason to not use the tadpoles.
With the Emperor it is more interesting, you hear his voice and have dreams even without using the tadpole. He does help you and save you. Yes, to his benefit too but then again this is true for nearly everyone else. Like Halsin, he helps you but you have to help him first and so on. The only thing that is off putting (until the later stuff in act 3) is that the urges you to consume further tadpoles. I really wish I could tell him that this is the reason why I am hesitating to trust him fully. Because this doesn't make sense - I am looking for a cure to remove the tadpole and he is urging me to consume more (it makes sense along the line that he wants us to get stronger but you can't really debate that with him - at least not up to the point where I am in game).
Anyway, I feel more inclined to trust him compared to Daisy - with Daisy it was an instant "No thank you, I don't want to see you again, ever" for me. But I do like the Guardian and am actually enjoying the scenes and interaction with him.
It was just a little confusing for me because I only used the tadpole once to free Shadowheart and did not have a dream for a long time in act 1 and suddenly (I think in the underdark?) I heard his voice but didn't even know that was him until I met him later. Not sure if this is intended. I think his voice comes at certain locations/points during the story and if you didn't had a dream with him before you have no idea what is going on now.
Additionally, Astarion is talking with my Tav about the "gifts" they got, implying they got already 2, but Tav is the only one who has 1 tadpole power but no other companions have any. Sounds like a bug I think, but isn't really an issue for me.
But as I already know what is happening in act 3 and at the end (yes I spoiled myself but I need this - I don't want to play such a long game just to find out at the end I had to do something at a certain time point to get a better ending) and I hope they do rewrite things with him - like not being forced to decide between him and Orpheus would be great.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Me personally I just wish the Emperor didn't have plot armor and you could murder his whiny ass Welllll... (serious endgame spoilers) If you side with Orpheus he shows up in the final boss battle on the opposing side. My character killed him.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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Me personally I just wish the Emperor didn't have plot armor and you could murder his whiny ass Welllll... (serious endgame spoilers) If you side with Orpheus he shows up in the final boss battle on the opposing side. My character killed him. You never get to make the choice to kill him when it would actually matter. Stabbing him in Act 2 doesn't do anything. Killing him at the start of Act 3 gives you a game over. You can only make the choice to side with Orpheus which prompts the Emperor to leave you which ultimately makes it his choice and not yours. There's also the option to backstab him for the evil ending or to eat his brain in the epilogue if you turned into a mindflayer. Both of these choices feel very random and lacklustre though and happen at a point in the story where you don't see the consequences of these choices play out. The character is with you for the entire game and no matter what you do, his death has neither a proper build-up nor any real pay-off. He just sort of goes down with a whimper.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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I actually prefer the Emperor over Daisy. With Daisy it was clear that this was to tempt you into using the tadpole powers as you got more and more dreams by using the tadpole and in an early dream (I never used the tadpoles very often) you are presented with a burning Baldurs Gate vision and this will be your "reward" - I mean this already screams to me as player who likes to play good to avoid and further reason to not use the tadpoles.
With the Emperor it is more interesting, you hear his voice and have dreams even without using the tadpole. He does help you and save you. Yes, to his benefit too but then again this is true for nearly everyone else. Like Halsin, he helps you but you have to help him first and so on. The only thing that is off putting (until the later stuff in act 3) is that the urges you to consume further tadpoles. I really wish I could tell him that this is the reason why I am hesitating to trust him fully. Because this doesn't make sense - I am looking for a cure to remove the tadpole and he is urging me to consume more (it makes sense along the line that he wants us to get stronger but you can't really debate that with him - at least not up to the point where I am in game).
Anyway, I feel more inclined to trust him compared to Daisy - with Daisy it was an instant "No thank you, I don't want to see you again, ever" for me. But I do like the Guardian and am actually enjoying the scenes and interaction with him.
It was just a little confusing for me because I only used the tadpole once to free Shadowheart and did not have a dream for a long time in act 1 and suddenly (I think in the underdark?) I heard his voice but didn't even know that was him until I met him later. Not sure if this is intended. I think his voice comes at certain locations/points during the story and if you didn't had a dream with him before you have no idea what is going on now.
Additionally, Astarion is talking with my Tav about the "gifts" they got, implying they got already 2, but Tav is the only one who has 1 tadpole power but no other companions have any. Sounds like a bug I think, but isn't really an issue for me.
But as I already know what is happening in act 3 and at the end (yes I spoiled myself but I need this - I don't want to play such a long game just to find out at the end I had to do something at a certain time point to get a better ending) and I hope they do rewrite things with him - like not being forced to decide between him and Orpheus would be great.
Still with Daisy you at least have a conflict in your head and the tadpole represents an actual danger. All this is gone with the Emperor which removes a lot of tension from the story.
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