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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Hi there, the title explains itself ... well I have some perplexities to explain which I'm obliged to insert in the spoilers, because to explain my impressions I necessarily have to recount some dialogues and respective reactions of the NPCs that I observed in act 3 upon the arrival of the city of The reactions of the NPCs I'm talking about gave me the impression of being really out of place and it seems precisely by analyzing the dialogues that I will quote shortly, that there is a strong influence of real life politics within a game where I believe, in my humble opinion, stretches that make no sense. first when you arrive down the hill, there is a child with red hair asking to help to find her parents, and being a drow i answered her obviusly to get lost and what happened? I've got negative reaction from Shadowheart and from Astarion.. WHAT? how is it possible? both Astarion and shadowheart we know very well that they are not saints, carrying out their quests remember Shadowheart has no problem killing an aasimar to become Shar's favorite and even Astarion is no good at all most of the times so why? suddenly since we are in a refugee camp and evidently the programmers here I don't know... maybe they are influenced by external politics, they decided that the player has to respond to the dialogue by helping the little girl... but I'm a lolth aligned drow and I'm evil what do I care about a little insignificant girl? Nothing.
Still i've got negative reaction after telling the child to piss off ... i don't find this an appropriate gameplay reaction , i expected Astarion and Shadowheart to be not interested to the resulting situation as well.
second after you roams around the refugees camp, we meet some citizens of Baldurs Gate who complains to a guard because there are too many refugees and it is feared that among them there are servants of the absolute or that even by continuing to let them in, there's the risk that there will no longer be space for the native citizens of baldur.
Once again the intrusion of real-life politics into the game seems evident.. baldurians are the "sovereignists" :lol: who are bad while the others , the refugees are all poor and innocent people. Here fortunately being disinterested in the dialogue between the NPCs does not lead to negative consequences, or at least it would seem so, however this leads inevitably to a mental logical deduction :
Are refugees actually migrants in real life? and the baldurians are bad repubblican sovereignists? lol whats the point of this? is it really necessary in a d&d fantasy game? ... so lets follow the lead.. the evil people are the native civlians of baldurs gate which are not accepting refugees inside their city and the refugees, the migrants lol, are all innocent and poor people?
And what about cutthroats, thieves or criminals who could be among them as well?
Dunno but please but what's the point of all this? don't tell me that this is the fruit of my fervent imagination, because it makes me laugh, it's obvious here and I wonder what the hell is the point of inserting politics into a fantasy game set in D&D?
i'm still perplexed and i find it really really bizarre.
Last edited by ICrusaderI; 10/09/23 07:44 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I know this is a common complaint in many hobbies, but political statements and being socially conscious is what art is for. Many mediums do this and the weird thing is to expect it not to happen. I'm neither agreeing with you or not agreeing with you. But, the expectation that politics stays out of art is not a realistic expectation.
Dungeons and Dragons does have social and political issues discussed in books.
Star Trek does address political and social issues.
Marvel Comics do address political and social issues.
The real question should be why you would expect it not? You have a decision to make yourself and only for yourself. Is that acceptable to you or not? Do you want to be upset or do you want to enjoy the game? Does the message resonate with you or not? It's okay if you have any answer to any of those questions. What's not okay is expecting not to have those questions asked of you by art.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2020
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What a long winded way to say you hate refugees and immigrants, you could have just said "im a bad person" and flipped a table.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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So for starters, I don't think your first point has anything to do with politics in any sense, but I agree it's odd for Astarion to have had a negative reaction. It seems like something he'd approve of. Shadowheart though, she does have a consistent tendency to prefer helping out the downtrodden when it doesn't hinder your own efforts, which wouldn't have happened in this situation. Second, the point of it is actually laid out later I believe. It's part of Gortash's plan, using the refugees as an immediate external threat alongside the coming army to stir up fear and discontent tht he can use tofurther solidify his hold on the city. Also, realistically that's something that would happen. A vicious army is on the march, people are going to flee it and go to the nearest place that seems secure, and historically the populations of those places get up in arms about the influce ofoutsiders. I don't think the writers were trying to specifically reflect any particular refugee crisis, it's just that a lot of refugee crises play out rather similarly. This is no more inherently political than the Lae'zel's storyline about the potential Githyanki schism caused by a coniving, selfish leader who abuses her people and the meditation on faith and loyalty that comes with it.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Well, the game at least makes the effort to make the refugees a more even moral spread. Some of them are parasites and rogues, like Aradin who turns out to be a real piece of shit, and Mol as well who even abandons her brats the moment she gets into the Guild to continue climbing her way up after all the worry those brats had for her back in Act 2 when she got kidnapped. Others are truly innocent victims of circumstance. And while the game does depict rich nobles who don't want to share, it also touches on the fact the city can't accommodate an influx of people with no available housing and a dwindling job market.
Obviously, the game is political, and the people celebrating it obviously are the same hypocrites who would ride on Polygon articles hating a game for being full of Christian allegory and thinly veiled anti-abortion messaging. But as far as political meddling goes in the story, this game was surprisingly mild. Unlike Hogwarts Legacy, which gives no option of what pronouns you wish to be referred, eliminating your gendered pronouns for they/them without consent, or turning 18th century Scotland half Asian and black. That's just an example of nakedly political games. This game is fairly well restrained, I don't think it deserves the flak other games should have gotten.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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I think the refugee parallel is clearly intentional. Personally, I find it heavy handed, one-sided, and not at all artistic in nature. It's a good/evil declaration. A way of making a modern day statement.
I would also point out that there's a letter in the Baldur's Mouth basement talking about making sure pictures of Gortash don't make him look too orange. Like a pumpkin. Doesn't take a lot of literary analysis to figure out who the tyrant in the game is representing.
*
A story can be told without being this heavy handed. With letting the themes within the story grow organically and speak for themselves. So, I don't accept the "all stories are political" base line response.
But I also don't expect anything else. We've gone through years of this. It's not possible to drink a beer or play a game without someone dragging in their politics. Would that we lived in a different world, but alas, we do not.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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Well, the game at least makes the effort to make the refugees a more even moral spread. Some of them are parasites and rogues, like Aradin who turns out to be a real piece of shit... Aradin's not a refugee, just as an aside.
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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I think the refugee parallel is clearly intentional. Personally, I find it heavy handed, one-sided, and not at all artistic in nature. It's a good/evil declaration. A way of making a modern day statement.
I would also point out that there's a letter in the Baldur's Mouth basement talking about making sure pictures of Gortash don't make him look too orange. Like a pumpkin. Doesn't take a lot of literary analysis to figure out who the tyrant in the game is representing.
*
A story can be told without being this heavy handed. With letting the themes within the story grow organically and speak for themselves. So, I don't accept the "all stories are political" base line response.
But I also don't expect anything else. We've gone through years of this. It's not possible to drink a beer or play a game without someone dragging in their politics. Would that we lived in a different world, but alas, we do not. I agree that the game is heavy-handed with real-world parallels, but I don't think it is wrong for a game to draw from contemporary issues as inspiration. The problem here is the obvious heavy-handedness, as opposed to being "political." Subtlety is an art in itself, and while Larian has mastered many arts, this one isn't it. However, I would like to say no one is forced to play games with different political values than their own, or with values they don't like. There are plenty of games out there, and if something is a dealbreaker, it is advisable to go play a different game, rather than put down artists for incorporating their own views into their work. While games are mass-consumed products, they are also art pieces, complete with an expression of self. Now, that self may be 400 selves, but it's still a perspective of its own, with a legitimacy to its views in its own way.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Not sure what point you were trying to make about Shadow heart.
Putting aside that companions generally don't react according to some "good" or "evil" approach but have specific opinions about specific topics, since the beginning she's always been in favor of
resolving things avoiding conflicts when possible and (as a "street urchin" background) , showing a charitable attitude toward children.
Also, when I left to her the decision she actively chose to NOT kill the Aasimar, so arguing as she's someone who basked into solving that scenario with blood is more than a bit puzzling.
That aside, yeah, the framing of the "refugee vs residents" was clearly intended to reflect "real-life equivalents" and it can't really be said the writing has been subtle in that area.
Quite frankly ham-fisted, in fact.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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What a long winded way to say you hate refugees and immigrants, you could have just said "im a bad person" and flipped a table. That's undoubtedly a take.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Well, the game at least makes the effort to make the refugees a more even moral spread. Some of them are parasites and rogues, like Aradin who turns out to be a real piece of shit... Aradin's not a refugee, just as an aside. He was as much a refugee to the grove after Halsin was captured as the rest. He had nowhere to go to as he was stranded there, the Goblins had them corralled, and he was as much a resource drain on the druids as any tiefling. He may not be a refugee from Elturel, but in Act 1 he was effectively a refugee to the grove from BG.
Last edited by Zenith; 10/09/23 09:53 PM.
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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Well, the game at least makes the effort to make the refugees a more even moral spread. Some of them are parasites and rogues, like Aradin who turns out to be a real piece of shit... Aradin's not a refugee, just as an aside. He was as much a refugee to the grove after Halsin was captured as the rest. He had nowhere to go to as he was stranded there, the Goblins had them corralled, and he was as much a resource drain on the druids as any tiefling. I think JandK means Aradin was not a refugee from Elturel, but was instead a mercenary in a tight spot.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2023
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Your first point is about role-playing. You were given the opportunity role-play your choice, whether Astarion or Shadowheart approve is neither here nor there. You will make choices where both of them approve; where only one or the other approves; or where one approves but the other is indifferent. The issue with immigrants and refugees is not a modern issue, it's been around for a couple of thousand years or so. =========================== Unlike Hogwarts Legacy, which gives no option of what pronouns you wish to be referred, eliminating your gendered pronouns for they/them without consent, or turning 18th century Scotland half Asian and black. That's just an example of nakedly political games. This game is fairly well restrained, I don't think it deserves the flak other games should have gotten. It's funny that when the books were first published nobody said a thing about genders and pronouns because it hadn't become fashionable or the mass psychosis hadn't begun. Anybody old enough to remember the last mass psychosis some decades ago? Bulimia and anorexia. Where did they come from and where did they go? Why did it only affect certain countries? And before anyone states the obvious - yes, I know that anorexia and bulimia are real and are still here. Why does a game developer or any company have to seek your consent about pronouns? How fucking entitled are you? 18th century Scotland?
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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Well, the game at least makes the effort to make the refugees a more even moral spread. Some of them are parasites and rogues, like Aradin who turns out to be a real piece of shit... Aradin's not a refugee, just as an aside. He was as much a refugee to the grove after Halsin was captured as the rest. He had nowhere to go to as he was stranded there, the Goblins had them corralled, and he was as much a resource drain on the druids as any tiefling. I think JandK means Aradin was not a refugee from Elturel, but was instead a mercenary in a tight spot. He's also a Baldurian, right? Coming from Baldur's Gate as an adventurer with a "contract" to get a relic. (i get a kick out of the way that contract is more like a leaflet once you get to bg, lol. aradin's glad to be rid of it, as if it was some special legal document, as opposed to be a dime-a-dozen print job scattered about the city)
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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Right, folks. There’s clearly some behaviour in this thread that’s out of line. Let’s dial it down, take the heat out and stop making it personal.
And some political discussion is inevitable given the topic, but let’s keep it as focussed as possible and refrain from broad brush statements or discussion of political topics unrelated to the thread subject as that’s just likely to lead to a row.
If I wake up tomorrow and find that anyone else has been less than civil in this thread overnight, it’s getting locked until I have time to deal with it and any users failing to adhere to basic netiquette properly in the evening. That’s easily avoided by recognising that we’re a global, diverse community and engaging with others who likely have different views to ours with respect and consideration, as many of the posters in this thread have indeed managed to do!
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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It's funny that when the books were first published nobody said a thing about genders and pronouns because it hadn't become fashionable or the mass psychosis hadn't begun. Anybody old enough to remember the last mass psychosis some decades ago? Bulimia and anorexia. Where did they come from and where did they go? Why did it only affect certain countries? And before anyone states the obvious - yes, I know that anorexia and bulimia are real and are still here. Oh yes, I remember the Bulimia and anorexia fad well. Family friend has lifelong health problems from it. No idea where it sprang from but it seemed to affect clusters of people like indeed a mass psychosis.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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* Ahem *
As I said, let’s keep it focused. That goes for medical as well as political discussion.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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OP isn't talking about Act 1 grove refugees, they're talking about Act 3 house squatters and the ridiculous moustache twirling villain in Rivington.
There's no nuance, it's plain ham-fisted allegory. Or put another way, it's rushed writing leaning on clichés with a dash of real-life politics.
I remember just plugging in the obvious dialogue numbers, getting the fight, reward and happy ending. No thought play.
Act3 has some of the best and worst story telling.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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About the first argument on Astarion and Shadowheart: the fact is that I convinced shadowheart to kill the nightsong aasimar and if you convince her, she thrust a spear in cold blood to the chest of the aasimar ok? i dont think this makes you a neutral person but instead a really evil one , am i wrong? ... so a this point I expect that by now it is clear that my negative influence has exerted something evil in her, after all she didn't even complain when I returned to the harper's base, who by now had all been transformed into undeads , due to the fact that there was no longer any magic barrier to protect them from the shadows... come on, we are talking about a devotee of Shar, she is definitely not a good person, she is in total contrast with Selune as a religion. And Astarion? a vampire who wants to replace his predecessor and become a new tyrant? come on.. seriously..
So at this point in act 3 if I decide i dont want to help that little girl I was talking about in Rivington (the girl asking to help her to find her parents). well I don't understand suddenrly why my companions Astarion and Shadowheart react negatively. They should have felt disinterested, I'm not saying contentment but certainly indifference. But no suddenly they become good Samaritans and devoted to helping others.. it doesn't make any logical sense to me.
Regarding the second argument about the refugees well.. I read all the answers in this thread and found many reasonable points from most of you. However, I continue to think that the developers' logic is forced.
Explain to me why it is wrong to think that spies, criminals, murderers, etc. could be hidden among the refugees? What's stopping it? No, they're all necessarily good, while the bad guys are the Baldurians who worry about defending the borders and their city.
It seems completely clear to me that these circumstances in Act 3 are not purely coincidental and this seems like a clear influence of the usual dispute between democrats and republicans on the issue of immigrants, squatters etc.. and I repeat, if my interpretation is not wrong well... I don't like how it is treated in the game, then for goodness sake I respect those who say they like it.
anyway I want to explain my reasoning better :
1) as I was saying I don't like seeing political real life ACTUAL elements influencing a medieval fantasy game. it is my personal opinion.
2) I would have preferred more intellectual honesty. Because it is common sense to think that there may be risks if your city is surrounded and invaded by caravans of foreigners, especially in a medieval fantasy era.
It is sensible to think so, only a madman would open the doors to any person without knowing whether of them there may be spies, criminals, etc.. it is completely normal. Instead, in the game, analyzing the various quests and the dialogues of the NPCs, it seems that seeing it from this point of view is on a par with being bad people.
I could be wrong but it seemed that way to me and I would say that I have nothing else to add, I simply said my opinion.
Last edited by ICrusaderI; 11/09/23 01:47 AM.
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Bard of Suzail
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Bard of Suzail
Joined: Oct 2020
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first when you arrive down the hill, there is a child with red hair asking to help to find her parents, and being a drow i answered her obviusly to get lost and what happened? I've got negative reaction from Shadowheart and from Astarion.. WHAT? how is it possible? both Astarion and shadowheart we know very well that they are not saints,
I get the impression you did not pay attention or get through Shadowheart's back story.... If you know the full back story you would be aware she has a special place in her heart fro protecting children. Her being upset at your dismisal of a child in need is perfectly within character.
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