Originally Posted by Zenith
Then you missed dialogue with Orin as well as some key details. She is not second best UA, in a Tav canon playthrough she actually kills DU, you can find the alabaster dragonborn's corpse in her bedchambers after killing her, and the alabaster dragonborn is the canonical DU's representation. It is only when you play DU that you can best her, and even when you play DU she reveals she got the drop on you and tortured you and tadpoled you, so you're not exactly the best UA if supposedly second best got the drop on you.

I made that point based on conversations with Sceleritas, Gortash and Orin. Sceleritas and Gortash both admire the efficiency of the Urge's killing, while you get to mock Orin that "Only children play with their food" and that "Abduction is lame" - Orin treats murder as art, while the Urge treats it as the ultimate goal, therefore there is nothing that can stop the Urge in their dedication to Bhaal. And yes, Orin did get the drop on the Urge, and unless you play Urge, he's dead for good, but Orin is also the primary catalyst of the downfall of the Absolute plot, so how good is she really in comparison to the Urge, even if you play any other origin? The Elder Brain straight up admired the Urge, but once Orin stepped into the picture, it was like "nah ya'll gonna fall apart, imma do my thing".

Originally Posted by Zenith
On top of that, while she can fool Gortash with shapeshifting, he already accounted for it. She cannot attack him because he bound both her and Ketheric's blades, this much Orin tells you when you probe her as to why she's requesting that you kill Gortash instead. Gortash is a former protege (really, more like indentured servant) of Raphael, he not only knows of Bane, but he has dabbled with a warlock background on top of his magic and mechanic contraptions. He used a magical binding so Orin cannot harm him, or she dies herself in the attempt. That's why she's pissed, because he knew both her and Ketheric would try to double cross him.

This is... something I never heard in game. Maybe the dialogue bugged out for me and never appeared? I'm willing to take your word for it, but from my PoV up until now, what I understood was that Orin's deal was meant as ransom to swing the balance based on whatever direction you go - either the life of the abductee but some semblance of balance remains against the Elder Brain as you work together with Gortash, or the life of Gortash and you risk it all for the abductee as the Elder Brain becomes completely loose while the Urge and Orin can dunk it out in front of Bhaal.

Gortash even tells the Urge that you and him mutually agreed to not interfere in each other's affairs, and that they would rule together by the end, no bounds required. And given that Gortash wasn't lying, the two were proper friends before the amnesia - a bound would have only soured that trust. And I have to wonder, just what exactly are the limits of that bound? Wouldn't the Urge be unable to kill Gortash if such a bound existed pre-amnesia? And if he really is protected against Orin, then why is he afraid of being killed by her? In his place, I'd be afraid of any other Unholy Assassin in that case, but this is something that is never acknowledged.

Originally Posted by Zenith
The only foolish thing about him is trusting you to not interfere with his plans. He overestimated his ability to smooth talk you and didn't really place any exit strategies in case you reneged. That part of weak writing is due to his cut content from Upper City, where he was obviously going to feature.

Fair enough.