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Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by ZOZO1006
I dont understand why ppl complain about the haste.
They are absolutely ridiculous lvl of abuse in this game. Stating with changing the difficulty that heals everyone to full. And sooooo boy the list is huge.
I think the biggest flaws in the game is that enemys have zero tool's to fight back. They don't have armor dmg healings resurrection spell (every npc have maximum 4 spells prepared) they don't have magic items. Maximum armor class boss is 22 that is the top. In the other hand the player can have even 50.
The damage that we can stack up is insane for mages and figthers alike its like minimum 20-100 /hit. In the mean time enemy is useing maximum +2 magic weapon and I only find one enemy that is actually useing it. Because Orin is transforming. And from that point on she is weaker have less ac less attack / round.

I think i could write a novel about what is wrong in Baldur's Gates combat.

Haste simply wasn't designed to give you +1 action in tabletop, like it does in BG3 (on top of +2 AC, double movement and advantage on dex saves). It gives you a special "Haste action" that you can use to Dash, Disengage, Hide, Obect Interaction or make 1 weapon attack. It can't be used to cast spells and it doesn't work with features that give you additional attacks. I think people mention Haste so often because it is such an obvious case of maknig an effect too strong relative to what it is expected to be, especially how easy it is to get your hands on a stack of Haste potions early on since Hyena Ears (dropped by gnolls) are the main ingredient. It's the tip of the iceberg that everyone will notice almost immediately.

Another interaction that might go a long way to balance some parts of the game is to simply enforce the 1 levelled spell per turn rule from tabletop. You toss a Fireball? It doesn't matter how many actions or bonus actions you have, you can only use cantrips until your next turn, unless it is on your reaction. You needed to Misty Step away? Only cantrips for you the rest of the turn. Etc.

I don't think bringing monsters up to where the game is currently allowing players to go would be the solution, because that would make a lot of characters just flat out unviable because they're not designed to deal with that environment. And it would be unreasonable to expect your random player to be able to optimize for that environment, or even want to. I certainly would lose interest quickly if I couldn't make the roleplay characters I wanted. Instead, fixing a lot of the broken interactions and mechanics to bring the ceiling down a bit, then adjust higher difficulties for that new ceiling is what I think would be the best solution.

To be fair, you CAN casts 2 spells in a single turn, but only if you didn’t use bonus action. Per tabletop.

So normal wizard could cast fireball and a counterspell, while sorcerer casting quickened fireball could only cast cantrips at that point. It would still fix the massive abuse for sorcerer and should be also applied to all martial. It’s stupid that you can use 3 bonus actions to make 3 additional attacks.

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I don't understand your argument. What is more broken to deal 150-300 dmg /turn to enemies that have 28-60 hp with 11 armor class. Or to have haste giving a bonus action.
Or to interact with objects w/o using action at all for example deploy 600 smoke barrels. Or to have infinite health with difficulty slider.
Do I agree that haste is too good? Yes
Do I believe it's the most broken part? No

I can destroy the game with only darkness and enemies will stand like piñatas and get destroyed.
There is so many ways to destroy bg3 w/o haste that i lost counting.
Can you destroy bg3 with just haste? No
I think i will stop arguing because it's pointless.
Its more important to shave cats then to fix then a giant leak on the sinking ship. It dosnt matter if they do something with the haste or not this will not fix any problems.
I am not against it just pointing out that it's not matter.
Honestly what will it do make early lvls more harder ppl will come and cry a river that they can't do act1.
Then some stupid game journalists will write an article about it.
And developers will further decrease the difficulty even on act 1. We're it was a little bit challenging.

Last edited by ZOZO1006; 10/10/23 12:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by ZOZO1006
I don't understand your argument.

You asked why people mention haste all the time. I gave you the answer: It is the tip of the iceberg of broken mechanics you don't need to know much system familiarity to see.


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Originally Posted by Annoyed Player
Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by ZOZO1006
I dont understand why ppl complain about the haste.
They are absolutely ridiculous lvl of abuse in this game. Stating with changing the difficulty that heals everyone to full. And sooooo boy the list is huge.
I think the biggest flaws in the game is that enemys have zero tool's to fight back. They don't have armor dmg healings resurrection spell (every npc have maximum 4 spells prepared) they don't have magic items. Maximum armor class boss is 22 that is the top. In the other hand the player can have even 50.
The damage that we can stack up is insane for mages and figthers alike its like minimum 20-100 /hit. In the mean time enemy is useing maximum +2 magic weapon and I only find one enemy that is actually useing it. Because Orin is transforming. And from that point on she is weaker have less ac less attack / round.

I think i could write a novel about what is wrong in Baldur's Gates combat.

Haste simply wasn't designed to give you +1 action in tabletop, like it does in BG3 (on top of +2 AC, double movement and advantage on dex saves). It gives you a special "Haste action" that you can use to Dash, Disengage, Hide, Obect Interaction or make 1 weapon attack. It can't be used to cast spells and it doesn't work with features that give you additional attacks. I think people mention Haste so often because it is such an obvious case of maknig an effect too strong relative to what it is expected to be, especially how easy it is to get your hands on a stack of Haste potions early on since Hyena Ears (dropped by gnolls) are the main ingredient. It's the tip of the iceberg that everyone will notice almost immediately.

Another interaction that might go a long way to balance some parts of the game is to simply enforce the 1 levelled spell per turn rule from tabletop. You toss a Fireball? It doesn't matter how many actions or bonus actions you have, you can only use cantrips until your next turn, unless it is on your reaction. You needed to Misty Step away? Only cantrips for you the rest of the turn. Etc.

I don't think bringing monsters up to where the game is currently allowing players to go would be the solution, because that would make a lot of characters just flat out unviable because they're not designed to deal with that environment. And it would be unreasonable to expect your random player to be able to optimize for that environment, or even want to. I certainly would lose interest quickly if I couldn't make the roleplay characters I wanted. Instead, fixing a lot of the broken interactions and mechanics to bring the ceiling down a bit, then adjust higher difficulties for that new ceiling is what I think would be the best solution.

To be fair, you CAN casts 2 spells in a single turn, but only if you didn’t use bonus action. Per tabletop.

So normal wizard could cast fireball and a counterspell, while sorcerer casting quickened fireball could only cast cantrips at that point. It would still fix the massive abuse for sorcerer and should be also applied to all martial. It’s stupid that you can use 3 bonus actions to make 3 additional attacks.

Sure, but there is only 1 way to do that in tabletop that I know of; Action Surge. So that's once per short rest. It's silly that almost every class is better at using a core Fighter feature than the FIghter, but for a spellcaster to have Action Surge they also need to sacrifice 2 lvls of their spellcasting class. Hardly anywhere near as broken as Haste in BG3, which gives you 2 spells per turn (before doing anything else to increase that number) for several turns and the option can freely cast full spells with both their action and bonus action on the same turn.

5e is very imbalanced in tabletop, but just enforcing the basics for spellcasting would go a long way to address a lot of balance problems in BG3. It'd be a start, if nothing else.


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You don't need to sacrifice any lvl to cast 3 fireballs w/o haste.
There are items beyond every imagination. That can give bonus action. So with a single class. Yes for sure if we start to do multiclassing and use haste it's possible to shoot even 6 fireballs at one turn. But it's just 1 fireball from 6!
So I do believe there are more broken things than just haste.
And agan here is the my main concern.

The stupid game journalist that will complain that some idiots nerfed haste and now he can't even finish act 1 on lowest difficulty. The devs did it before they Buffed and Buffed up lowest difficulty because of the journalists.

Last edited by ZOZO1006; 10/10/23 01:05 PM.
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Originally Posted by ZOZO1006
You don't need to sacrifice any lvl to cast 3 fireballs w/o haste.
There are items beyond every imagination. That can give bonus action. So with a single class. Yes for sure if we start to do multiclassing and use haste it's possible to shoot even 6 fireballs at one turn. But it's just 1 fireball from 6!

I was comparing to tabletop. The thing I said about Action Surge being the only way to cast multiple spells in a single turn is how it works in tabletop, which does require 2 lvls of Fighter.


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Originally Posted by TomReneth
Originally Posted by ZOZO1006
I don't understand your argument.

You asked why people mention haste all the time. I gave you the answer: It is the tip of the iceberg of broken mechanics you don't need to know much system familiarity to see.

Indeed and BG3 Haste amplifies other bad mechanics design choices they made even further e.g. Swords Bard - in 5e you can only make one (successful) Bardic Flourish a turn (apart from as a reaction), a single Slashing Flourish cannot target the same enemy twice and only the primary target takes weapon damage + Inspiration die damage, secondary targets only take Inspiration die damage. In BG3, provided you have enough Bardic Inspiration, *every* attack (other than from a bonus action) can be a Flourish, a Ranged Slashing Flourish can attack the same target twice, and every target of a Slashing Flourish takes Inspiration die damage AND full weapon damage.

So with Haste a level 6 Swords Bard can make 4 Ranged Slashing Flourishes - effectively 8 attacks, all with Inspiration die damage on top of base weapon damage, all of which can be on the same target. Add in the Sharpshooter feat (which can also be used to full effect with your Dex damage applied without any additional flighting style or feat required for a bonus action off-hand hand crossbow attack) and things get even more ludicrous. No loading property for any type of Crossbow and Hand Crossbows having the same range as a Longbow in BG3 also obviously contribute to the problem.

This is just one example, but there are loads of broken interactions like this that just trivialise combat.

Last edited by Metalogic; 10/10/23 01:04 PM.

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That is what I am saying it no just one spell. It's almost everything that a smart person can come up with.

I think the most broken spell is darkness but nm.

Last edited by ZOZO1006; 10/10/23 01:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by TomReneth
I was comparing to tabletop. The thing I said about Action Surge being the only way to cast multiple spells in a single turn is how it works in tabletop, which does require 2 lvls of Fighter.
And worth noting that is more costly in tabletop, while, if not playing a module, offers less benefit than the numbers would indicate. The MC requirement of 13 dex (or str) most likely isn't so bad, but it does mean you're 2 levels behind, which means you're behind a full spell level. Second to that, the DM is going likely to tailor the fights to your party's capabilities. So even if you could abuse haste like you can in BG3, the encounter difficulty would increase to compensate (and enemies would use it on you too). The third is that BG3 has set encounters, and there is sufficient xp to be had from those that you can easily over-level the encounters. And you get xp after xp. In tabletop, progress will be much slower, and you're looking at a long, long time to get to the levels we get to here very quickly. And fourth, you can't respec for a pittance, and typically not at all. So if you want those levels of fighter, and you want the con proficiency save bonus, you have to start as fighter, and won't get to do mage stuff until level 3, at which point you'll only have level 1 spells.

So even outside of how the MC works for just your build, just the nature of playing in real life makes MC'ing a lot less appealing.

Also beyond that, a lot of MC'ing also abuses rest mechanics. Just short rest, get your Warlock spells back and smite some more with your paladin/warlock. Well, a short rest is supposed to take an hour. Meaning you can't do that after taking out one room in the Gith creche, for example, because they'll attack you. But in game, it is instant. This even applies to action surge. You can use it and then long rest afterwards. Tabletop, no such guarantee.

Last edited by Talismina; 11/10/23 05:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by ZOZO1006
That is what I am saying it no just one spell. It's almost everything that a smart person can come up with.

I think the most broken spell is darkness but nm.
No one is saying it is just one spell. You're the only one who thinks people are saying that. Haste is just a very easy example to point to because it is so blatantly obvious it is broken even with just a surface understanding of the system, both in the effect itself and with how easily you can stack up on Potions of Speed right from the beginning of the game. Please remember the difference between people using Haste as AN example and as THE ONLY example. The latter hasn't happened yet as far as I can remember.

Originally Posted by Talismina
Originally Posted by TomReneth
I was comparing to tabletop. The thing I said about Action Surge being the only way to cast multiple spells in a single turn is how it works in tabletop, which does require 2 lvls of Fighter.
And worth noting that is more costly in tabletop, while, if not playing a module, offers less benefit than the numbers would indicate. The MC requirement of 13 dex (or str) most likely isn't so bad, but it does mean you're 2 levels behind, which means you're behind a full spell level. Second to that, the DM is going likely to tailor the fights to your party's capabilities. So even if you could abuse haste like you can in BG3, the encounter difficulty would increase to compensate (and enemies would use it on you too). The third is that BG3 has set encounters, and there is sufficient xp to be had from those that you can easily over-level the encounters. And you get xp after xp. In tabletop, progress will be much slower, and you're looking at a long, long time to get to the levels we get to here very quickly. And fourth, you can't respec for a pittance, and typically not at all. So if you want those levels of fighter, and you want the con proficiency save bonus, you have to start as fighter, and won't get to do mage stuff until level 3, at which point you'll only have level 1 spells.

So even outside of how the MC works for just your build, just the nature of playing in real life makes MC'ing a lot less appealing.

Also beyond that, a lot of MC'ing also abuses rest mechanics. Just short rest, get your Warlock spells back and smite some more with your paladin/warlock. Well, a short rest is supposed to take an hour. Meaning you can't do that after taking out one room in the Gith creche, for example, because they'll attack you. But in game, it is instant. This even applies to action surge. You can use it and then long rest afterwards. Tabletop, no such guarantee.

Woe is he who begins an arms race with the #ForeverDM.


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To add to the discussion, I really hate the only way to play Baldur's Gate 3 Efficiently is to do big damage as soon as you can, killing enemies before they can take a turn.

Fight -> Long Rest -> Fight is how the game can easily be played with how easy it is to buy/steal/find food.

Control spells are garbage, while items make something simple as Scorching Ray into weapon of mass destruction due to multiple procs of damage types.

Even something as iconic and useful as Polymorph was nerfed to the ground. You can't turn your allies into Giant Apes or T-Rexes, you can turn one enemy into a sheep for 5 turns, if they fail a saving throw and it is still a concentration.

Larian really should have listened to early feedback, especially with regards to things like a bonus action shove...

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I couldn't care less about 'balance' in this game. I'm not competing with anyone and I don't know much about D&D so if I happen to stumble on an overpowered build, cool!

Back when BG1 and 2 were new there were overpowered classes that made the game easier and that was the case in any game out there that gave you any sort of freedom of choice. In a game of dice rolls, any advantage is just that, and there is almost always going to be an optimal avenue to an advantage. The only reason it wasn't a big deal back then was because there weren't 1500 videos on youtube telling you the most optimal way to play the game.

I guess if just exploiting the best builds and then complaining the game isn't fun is your jam, have at it.

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There is difference between making things easier and totally breaking the game. Any good build should make the game easier by default, that's the idea behind making a build, I'm not going to nerf myself. However, when a few items get you to the point, that you could just skip combat, because there is no chance of you ever losing, then the game is badly balanced. A bad balancing kills a main reason for buying the game in the first place, exciting and challenging combat. No challenge no fun.

Last edited by Jones76; 18/10/23 04:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jones76
There is difference between making things easier and totally breaking the game. Any good build should make the game easier by default, that's the idea behind making a build, I'm not going to nerf myself. However, when a few items get you to the point, that you could just skip combat, because there is no chance of you ever losing, then the game is badly balanced. A bad balancing kills a main reason for buying the game in the first place, exciting and challenging combat. No challenge no fun.

Don’t use those items then? If you think they’re killing the fun.

I’ll never use those stupid dual wield crossbow sharpshooter builds, because it’s OP and also makes no sense (how can you shoot 2 xbows repeatedly? You need 4 arms then for reloading), altho i have a swords bard in my party.

Also I’ll never use the tavern brawler monk build, altho i have a monk in my party (shadow, not the OP open hand)

The game is easy enough for me to further reduce the difficulty by making OP builds.

I try to long rest only when my recourses are absolutely depleted and I use spells depending on the combat encounter, not to overkill 2 goblins with twin spell doible fireball with twin haste after etc.

It does not mean I’m nerfing myself, I’m just playing in a way that makes sense, from RP perspective as well.

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Yes, you can absolutely do that. Still, I kinda expect the game developer to give me encounters that reflect the power level I can achieve. And you don't need broken builds to shred content in BG3, you can do that just fine without haste, dual crossbows, casting 3 spells in row. Somewhere between level 5 and 8 you just start to steamroll content, because the power curve is in your favor.

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I'm on to my 5th playthrough of BG3 using difficulty mods. I've held myself to strict rules against using the litany of broken features. As a DM and someone who's been playing D&D cRPGs for over 20 years, I find myself getting increasingly frustrated with select design choices in BG3. Choices that honestly make it feel more like DOS (big numbers go brrrr) and less like D&D, and none of the available mods are able to do anything about it.

I want to give Larian credit for some of their changes. Jumping is fun in this vertical environment. The changes to Monk, adaptations for Wildheart Barbarian, and changes to caster multiclassing are fun homebrew. But it's all overshadowed by the absolutely ridiculous changes to Haste, Tavern Brawler, Swords Bard, dual xbows, Thief multiclassing, Extra attack stacking Paladins, and more. Tweaking things, homebrewing additive changes, can work well, but many of these changes are multiplicative and completely destroy 5e's Action Economy, throwing everything out of whack. The builds that use these features aren't playing D&D, they're playing DOS3 with the Lone Wolf perk.

How can you, on one hand, introduce some interesting and fun changes that show you understand some of the ruleset's weaknesses, and on the other hand, completely blow any sense of understanding the ruleset out of the water? At this point, making BG3 feel like a more authentic D&D experience will require a massive overhaul mod project changing things related to feats, Haste, Bloodlust Elixir, classes, resting, and monsters (adding the largely ignored Legendary Actions to more bosses and mini-bosses).

Ugh.

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Put simply, Larian's insane power creep, homerules, magic items and potions laying everywhere is the main issue.

THERE ARE TOO MANY MAGIC ITEMS AND POTIONS TO FIND IN ACT 1 ALONE, let alone the rest of the game.

To put into perspective, going by tabletop rules. A party of characters between levels 1 to 4 is expected to received a grand total of 11 magic items. 9 Minor and 2 Major.

Minors are basically one-use potions, etc. And on that levels you get 6 common, 2 uncommon and 1 rare item.

Major are basically permament buffs like: weapon+1, but not armour +1. And certain other items.

So, a party between levels 1 and 4 can expect to find, for example:

-Bead of nourishment x4, feather token (basically potion of feather fall) and a mystery key (5% to open a door, then it disappears)
-Potion of Greater Healing and a Potion of Hill Giant Strength x1
-Scroll of a level 4 or 5 spell slot.
-Cloak of Elvenkind and a weapon +1

You get the idea.

In act 1 alone, we find dozens of magic items, laying basically everywhere. You can BUY THEM. This alone is pure idiocy. You don't go delving into dungeons, so that you can buy magic items from any merchant alone.

And that's the tip of the iceberg. How is game supposed to be hard, when you can stack the odds in your favour so damn much? Let alone with things such as broken Haste, etc.

Last edited by Annoyed Player; 22/10/23 09:53 AM.
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Originally Posted by Annoyed Player
And that's the tip of the iceberg. How is game supposed to be hard, when you can stack the odds in your favour so damn much? Let alone with things such as broken Haste, etc.

Game design holds that the game must be easy enough for the casual gamer to "win" fairly easily in order to engage the largest PAYING audience possible.

Money first - and the casual paying customer far outnumbers those that want a challenge.

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This is a tough road to walk. How do you make a game easy enough for causal play and tough enough for the purists?

Then the whole balance issue which is a mess because of the desire to use as much DnD as you can. DnD is designed around the use of an active GM, someone that can tweak things on the fly and make snap decisions with an unforeseen player action could rerail everything. With a CRPG there is simply no way to do this short of putting limits on player actions.

While, as a DnD old school fan boy purist, there is much I would like to see changed, on the whole I think Larian did a good job of walking the line and making the game accessible to all levels of skill and interest.

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Originally Posted by Zentu
This is a tough road to walk. How do you make a game easy enough for causal play and tough enough for the purists?

Then the whole balance issue which is a mess because of the desire to use as much DnD as you can. DnD is designed around the use of an active GM, someone that can tweak things on the fly and make snap decisions with an unforeseen player action could rerail everything. With a CRPG there is simply no way to do this short of putting limits on player actions.

While, as a DnD old school fan boy purist, there is much I would like to see changed, on the whole I think Larian did a good job of walking the line and making the game accessible to all levels of skill and interest.

Respectfully disagree...somewhat. I think Larian's encounter design and world design is probably the best I've seen in a CRPG to date. But 5e at base in tabletop was the first dnd edition where I could design a dungeon/encounter without knowing what my player would bring and not have to worry about players feeling OP or UP. Not sure if you were on the forums back then but you might have seen the 3.5 tier list and guides on balancing parties and having players try to pick classes within a certain tier range. I think it was JaronK who did that tier analysis iirc.

Anyways in my experience it's not the OP stuff that is the issue, but the UP stuff. I've been frustrated in my SP game to the point of restarting because my Tav was focused on control and healing and it was frustratingly weak. In 2 separate multiplayer games I've had players frustrated because they felt weak/useless compared to other party members or were frustrated with their spells not doing much.

To use a skyrim example. Stealth archery is overpowered, but nobody complains about it. They just don't use it. People DO complain about how bad destruction and magic is, because normal difficulty a pure caster can become painfully difficult and frustrating in mid to lategame if you don't enchant to lower spell costs...

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