Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Halsin Romance, Expectations and Obligatory Poly

Of course there is a possibility that I just happened to have a very stable playthrough and that's why can't recall any gringy dissonance. I'll write down my playthrough briefly and if someone wants to add how other paths lead to something weird, feel free! I'm truly trying to check my own thinking here.

I like that in this romance, we can, in a certain playthrough (spoilers for Halsin ending)

And that is exactly why I think there are some people who enjoy his romance - the ones that did not wait for him to have him as single romance option but to have him on the side as additional lover with Astarion or Shadowheart as major love interest starting from act 1.

It is understandable that you aren't upset you can't come with him at the end because you have another lover with who, I suppose, you stayed at the end.

Or did you tell Astarion/Shadowheart too that you might come visit them (I don't know if this is an option). Or how would you feel if they would tell you they leave you and you might come visit if you like and leave you behind without option to tell them that you like to stay with them and come with them right now? Because with Halsin we can't. He decides he leaves and we can't say we want to go with him.

In terms of him having romantic feelings, he is also aware that his behaviors could negatively impact a player character who does not like the same things he likes. He stops and explains his way of behaving before engaging in the behavior, giving the player character the opportunity to either continue on with him, or to disengage.

If I am making any kind of misstep in terms of restraint/signal to noise ratio here, I do appreciate intervention.

So, I understand that this is the question: how do I interpret Halsin's loneliness, his stoicness, and him as a trauma survivor, in the context of him as a person who also displays kinks and fetishes, some of which are directly related to his past trauma, and who also practices nonmonogamy? Absolutely massive topic, I am trusting you and contributing my perspective. Thank you for asking for it! I'll do my best to answer without centering myself and my experiences, but also with the acknowledgement that there is no universal truth to attain when it comes to something as complex as trauma responses. In a therapy setting, with a real person, the reality of life introduces millions of variables, none of which can be said with certainty to cause any specific behavior, and healing with a therapist works to assist the real person with having all the tools they need to support how they might continue living on, carrying memories of traumas and coping day to day with the aim of restoring functionality, having self-awareness, and making choices that serve their aims of living whatever those may be. And I'll answer also from a perspective of literary analysis, since rather than a real person, this is someone's OC at the end of the day. I'll be watching the character do what he does, and the story told with him, without presuming it's trying to represent any universal prescription regarding real-world trauma; it's one OC. And it's one OC in an ensemble cast. As to what content I have to comment on, I speak to what is given in the game on release and some datamined content, which likely skews my interpretation because I know we're not intended to see that stuff. But I saw it, thank you dataminers :3

Well, that's a complicated question, for sure. I have taken some time to make a careful response. The first place that it takes me is to the qualifiers for sorting behaviors into adaptive vs maladaptive. The way I've had it explained to me is, maladaptive is how behavior is described when it brings us and/or others into conflict and dysfunction, maybe not right away, maybe in the long term. These maladaptive ways of behaving can have destructive impacts on ourselves and others if left unchecked. So, if we look at the impacts we're having on ourselves and others, we can come to understand our place in relation to others, and how our behaviors impact others, and check maladaptive behavior. Adaptive behaviors create our coexistence with others for a copacetic present and future community. This is my understanding, so it may not be consistent with the knowledge of someone trained in the field where these phrases come from. Apologies if my using them as shorthand for 'adaptive=in service of one's life with oneself and others' and 'maladaptive=not in service of one's life with oneself and others' is incorrect or reductive. I hope my use of them this way is not appropriative of anyone's diagnosis; mistakes I make are made through my ignorance.

My impression of Halsin is that he is preoccupied with how his behavior impacts others, in a good way. He is deeply self-aware about the danger posed by his bear form from the moment you recruit him. Specific detail, recruitment: As a result, he encourages the player character to leave him behind if that is not their aim. He knows his bear form is going to negatively impact someone else, and he warns about that. A behavior, the inability to control bear form, is something he cannot change about himself, it is a fixture of his behaviors that could complicate or negatively impact another person, so he advises that person about himself and lets them choose what to do with that information. More goblin camp> This wouldn't make sense mechanically, as it would remove a player character's agency, and it wouldn't make sense because he knows he'd die if he tried. And so, in this case, a mechanical result of this being a video game shows an aspect of this character to me, which is: he has a potentially destructive form, that he restrains, and informs others about, when he takes human form and can communicate.

Romance spoiler These are not, to me, maladaptive behaviors that carelessly introduce harm to others in the short or long term, but behaviors that reflect self-awareness and knowledge and care for the consequences of behaviors. It is a mature way to act.

In terms of him having romantic feelings, he is also aware that his behaviors could negatively impact a player character who does not like the same things he likes. He stops and explains his way of behaving before engaging in the behavior, giving the player character the opportunity to either continue on with him, or to disengage. I think it's telling, too, spoilers for some dialogues,
It's useful that you fielded this type of question: Could commitment avoidance as a whole be a trauma response?

As far as romance goes, there's no way to know for a real person. It may come to pass that healing that comes with time spent managing one's trauma responses moves nonmonogamy to a place of lesser importance than, for example, a commitment with a person who likes monogamy. It may come to pass that healing that comes with time spent managing one's trauma responses does not move the needle on nonmonogamy at all. Getting to a healed functioning place of coping with trauma is not a cure to liking living without commitments; and lack of commitment does not mean lack of interdependence and community and love. Many nonmonogamous people have trauma. Many monogamous people have trauma. The part of healing that is becoming aware of and working to remove maladaptive behaviors, by using our self-and-others awareness, is a responsibility that has no orientation. So, acting in a way that is harmful to others, whether we are committing to relationships or not, is what we must become aware of and work to be a better person about. Acting in a way that is responsible to others and their feelings, whether we are committing to relationships or not, is a requirement of being in relation with others. What is unhealthy is acting with carelessness towards others' fragile existences. Halsin is not careless. And that is the well from which I perceive him drawing his stoic attitude: carefulness. Restraint. And losing that careful restraint humiliates him, and humbles him when it happens. I think he has lived a long time and has processed trauma before, and lives alongside his acute trauma without letting it overtake his priority of care to others romantically; yet he can't engage because it could. spoilers for romance and quest Sometimes when you're dealing with shit, you're not available to be a good lover. His issues with duty of care do seem to be unmanaged, until the player: which I love and which, to me, shows healing from the place in which we found him. More on that: Those are my thoughts on his personal quest-related traumatic experiences.

Returning to the question, this time: Could commitment avoidance to player character be a trauma response?: Rewriting Halsin's character to be 'cured' of nonmonogamy after one or two therapeutic conversations about past and acute trauma with player character would reinforce negative stereotypes mononormative culture holds about CNM, that it is a maladaptive sexuality that a therapeutic intervention will eliminate. If those conversations happened and in no way revised his commitment standards to player character, that would not reinforce our dominant culture. If Halsin would be rewritten to take an interest in commitment in his bond with the player character around aspects of establishing a relationship, and committing beyond the sex, emotional support, and affection he provides with romance in his current characterization, I'd watch with interest as to how it's handled. It would not surprise me to see this, since mononormative culture holds the story of healing to look like movement towards traditional commitments to lovers. He easily could be rewritten to add an arc that involves commitment to player character after addressing and working through his trauma. This is how it happens for real people sometimes, of course, and maybe this is an OC reflective of that reality some people experience. That's not the reality other people experience, who heal, addressing and working through trauma, and continue to happily seek sex outside of commitment. Halsin could be written either way and be perfectly fine representation. One writing aligns with mononormative expectations, one writing does not. Neither path is worse or better than the other. Neither is healthier or unhealthier. They simply are ways of being a sexual being.

The place of guidance that I interpret him drawing his self-awareness is not a therapist or therapeutic conversation with the player character tbh. My interpretation is that he draws the wisdom to be aware of himself and how his behaviors impact others from his faith in the Oak Father and nature. He sees himself as part of nature, a place full of killing, fighting, mating, and eating each other, and he puts faith in nature as a place that has immutable laws of behavior and being. While these laws can be twisted from their path, like the curse, nature's true being must be restored.This is the way the world is to him: there is no changing what happens according to each thing's nature. So his awareness of himself and how his actions impact others is knowable through knowing nature. And he values nature, including his own nature, which is a nature that likes free love. It's what he likes and he hopes the one he makes his proposition to likes it too. This paradigm of understanding about himself is not, to me, signalling an unhealthy way of coping with what he's lived through, but an understanding borne out through a dependence on faith. He talks so much about nature. He's an archdruid. He believes in the restoration of nature and in his own embodiment of the tenets of nature.

How others see him as hot and desirable, whether or not that has formed trauma in him -- I wouldn't put on his character without an explicit description from the character describing his experience of being sexually desired as, specifically, traumatic. Trauma at being sexually desired: that's a really specific storyline. It is explored with another party member in the ensemble cast. That is how another party member feels, so it is represented in the game. Trauma is not universally experienced as a result being sexually desired, where'd you get this in his character?

Fetishizing his trauma: fine, harmless, normal, common. I get players wanting player character to have follow-up dialogue like that's like.. trauma mention aftercare.

Early access players owed a more widely-liked and anticipated type of guy after putting in three years of campaigning: Not how it worked out, Larian went in a different direction. Got a traditional wood elf character romance, sorry.

Downplaying the response to male rape victims: I am leaving this conversation to others for now, here in this venue of the official forums. I am uncomfortable sharing my perspective here.

And that is exactly why I think there are some people who enjoy his romance - the ones that did not wait for him to have him as single romance option but to have him on the side as additional lover with Astarion or Shadowheart as major love interest starting from act 1.

It is understandable that you aren't upset you can't come with him at the end because you have another lover with who, I suppose, you stayed at the end.

Or did you tell Astarion/Shadowheart too that you might come visit them (I don't know if this is an option). Or how would you feel if they would tell you they leave you and you might come visit if you like and leave you behind without option to tell them that you like to stay with them and come with them right now? Because with Halsin we can't. He decides he leaves and we can't say we want to go with him.

Halsin's romance does seem to work much better if you're romancing someone else (who'll go along with it). Maybe that's the real meaning of obligatory poly.

Thank you so much for you thoughrough response. You make a lot of excellent points.


Your comment: Fetishizing his trauma: fine, harmless, normal, common. I get players wanting player character to have follow-up dialogue like that's like.. trauma mention aftercare.[quote=Tharrow]If I am making any kind of misstep in terms of restraint/signal to noise ratio here, I do appreciate intervention.

My reply: Common, yes? Harmless? Absolutely not. And the reason for this is that when it keeps reaccuring it speaks to conditions of CT-PTSD and unhealed trauma, that is still so impactful that it still guides your emotions and sexual arousal. This means, that if Halsin is still at this stage 250 years later, he still hasn't healed from the trauma.

Personally, I absolutely buy this. But that only makes his reaction of downplaying it in a way that is supposed to make us as the player "Oh, he is good with it! What a champ. He repressed his feelings and turned it into a kink." Other than being extremely incentisive to men who have been sexually assaulted (and before anyone chews my head off: I know from very intimate firsthand experience), it also encourages this toxic idea of "dealing" with it. In addition to this, the fact that this information is not only gated by some rather immature and, for me, uncomfortable content and then you only find out AFTER. This means that your character just became implicit inan experience that was deeply related to Halsin's still ongoing trauma, without knowledge or consent.
The PC got linked to that traumatic episode without consent, and was not given as an option of "we could explore this for you to face your trauma and find healing" - from personal experience this usually backfires, but I know not all agree and that experiences aren't the same.


You comment: Early access players owed a more widely-liked and anticipated type of guy after putting in three years of campaigning: Not how it worked out, Larian went in a different direction. Got a traditional wood elf character romance, sorry.

My reply: Wood elves traditionally have polyamorous relationships, yes. Halsin is not this. Halsin goes under the category that you posted earlier "swinger", and will repeatedly tell you it is not a relationship.
If you look at Halsin's character outside of his romance, he is loyal, dependable, steadfast, devoted, and gives an air of wanting to create beloging and family.
But in his romance, you get everything but this. It is actually the only thing you don't get.
And just the pure irony of him in the end scene of him saying: "Now is the time for us to take care of each other" immediately after he has told you that he is leaving, is one of those whiplash moments where I am certain he is rolling a critical 1 in wisdom. Add to that that he says "precious few hands with which to do it" and that he earlier compares you to family - the closest and often most permanent bonds you can have - that pushes every sweet word he has said down the gutter.

This is not about mononormative behaviour; This is about using deliberate words that build up expectation of an action or outcome, and then pulling it out from under you without discussion.

Gaslighting in Romantic Relationships

Corecion

Coercion is a spectrum of behaviours. It ranges from convincing someone by using charm or seeming to be very caring. It can also be exerting pressure or being emotionally and/or verbally manipulative in order to get one’s way. Often the gaslighter uses something important or close to your heart as ammunition.

Halsin: "We never said we would have a relationship or a future together. You must have misunderstood."

What he said: "I can scarcely imagine my life without you now", "I belong at your side" and "You are all I want"

Do I think Halsin was written intentionally to be a gaslighter? No, I actually think they completely missed it in there hurry

As any person who has experienced any sort of emotional abuse or has an understanding of it, can it be read this way? Oh absolutely.

And gaslightning is not gaslighting because it is viewed by mononormaritive eyes. It is gaslighting because the person thinks only of themselves and how the other person might best suit their needs. Halsin does not once ask the PC what they want, does not once ask "what do you need?", but keeps circling back to what he wants over and over.

From a business point of view: Making Halsin this narrow of a targetgroup in enjoyability when the request for him has been huge is the equivalent of: "So, we have heard your feedback! And we know that you all would love this new model of car. But you can only drive it if you're between 190 - 195 cm as there are no adjustable seat options. In addition, you should know that it has a one time battery that lasts for about a month and cannot be recharged."

(Suggestion: You might want to delete the snarky remark at the end. I am not sure you intended it as it is written)
No
Your comment: trauma without letting it overtake his priority of care to others romantically

My reply: I would agree if not for this;

1. He has been dreaming about you
2. He keeps having very sexualized banter, as if that is his main focus
3. After his quest in act 2 he doesn't stop obsessing. It just shifts. And that is perfectly normal and works for the character, but the danger is not less, the topic or responsibility not less grim, so while I understand his reasoning (and I even find it wholeheartedly endearing), it simply isn't what actually occurs. Especially when you then add the drow situation - it creates a complete disconnect.

I do find it concerning that we mention actual signs of trauma and it gets swept under the rug of "mononormative". Trauma and trauma responses is not something that is that excluded. And because gaslighting is preformed in a different setting doesn't mean that it is not toxic or not abuse. Especially in a community where personal agency is so damned important.

I never got the impression he's actually fine with it. Like with Mizora, it comes across as fake.

I've never touched Mizora (or the drow, or any other optional side encounter), so I can't compare, but Astarion seemed quite okay with it to me - just as long, like you said, as it's nothing serious. But all of Halsin's reactions seem quite serious. Confusing, and not something I'm into in the first place, so I ended up hating it. Definitely never trying that again.

The concept of Thiramin, right? But awesome! Thanks for this useful knowledge.

I've never touched Mizora (or the drow, or any other optional side encounter), so I can't compare, but Astarion seemed quite okay with it to me - just as long, like you said, as it's nothing serious. But all of Halsin's reactions seem quite serious. Confusing, and not something I'm into in the first place, so I ended up hating it. Definitely never trying that again.

We don't have to agree. I *do* believe it's open to interpretation. What I'm saying is that, to me, he consents under perceived coercion (subjective) and, if he were a real person, I could not on my conscience assume he's capable of informed consent (objective).

With Mizora, you can see him slipping into his act very heavily. That is why I'm mentioning it. It more or less established (to me) that he would lie about his feelings on the matter. Someone could disagree about this interaction, but that's how I see it.