Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Halsin Romance, Expectations and Obligatory Poly

I'm not sure the relevant discussion is monogamy vs. polyamory rather than "people who automatically assume a relationship is short term until discussed further" and "people with some innate idea of courtship and the steps required". What might be fun to the first group can trick someone in the second

I'm joking


Interesting that you would bring up rather biased sources, seeing how all of those people practice/lean towards polyamory.

But what I find rather funny is that some of those people are abusers (Franklin Veaux) and life coaches that lie about being therapists. (Jessica Fern)

And my favorite post - 'I think the moral of the story is that people need to stop lionizing self-help books written by non mental health care professionals -- and stop taking these books as dogma. In fact, pop-psychology books aren't the word of God, either. While they can be helpful, people should really start thinking for themselves.'

Either way I don't think this is the place for this kind of a discussion so I'll leave it that.

Since I had the (mis)fortune of being on Quora in very specific years, I'm not sure Franklin is an abuser. He was certainly victim of a smear and harrassment campaign. Ironically, I can't see him approving of Halsin's writing.

If what you critique as inconsistent writing are indications that Halsin has not been fully forthcoming with his feelings and secretly wishes to change his boundaries around intimate bonds, future patches that explore his feelings and bring secret feelings to the surface would be something to hope for, I get it. Like I've tried to say before, if that's what his writer(s) do, it's a direction I would watch for his character with interest.

Alternately, if what you critique as inconsistent writing is not an indication of secrecy or unaware avoidance on Halsin's part, and instead only seems inconsistent because his style of being with others is unfamiliar and strange to players who, before encountering him, haven't had an interest in nonmonogamy themselves or have had an interest exclusively in CNM/poly types he does not like, a future where he's patched to represent a different style of CNM for player comfort would be a bummer to me. But, I also trust the writers would give us the details of their OC's inner life in the way they mean to. So, I'm not fussed much either way, since it's a video game character and someone else's OC at the end of the day.

Toxic and destructive are strong words for this romance, it's a bummer you felt that way about it.

I hope I haven't indicated I feel these books are dogma, but the start of conversations and contributions to the discussion, to be included in the chats of how poly people talk about our lives and the people we love and have sex with. Take what you like and discard the rest. If that means discarding everything and going your own way, that's perfectly understandable, no one should be lionized. I hope that the alternative for mono people isn't looking at wikipedia.

Tharrow, I would so nice again encourage you to make another thread where you can get the support you want for this topic.

Unfortunately, the more you post about the subject the more it seems like an excuse for abuse and using other people for personal gain and desires without having to feel accountable for how they are treated.

Polygamy is something, when done right, is deeply respectful. The mentality around Halsin is the opposite, but it is sadly given a wrapping to make it seem okay.

I support you wanting this type of content, but as you have been repeatedly reminded, we are looking at Halsin in a broader context

Please stop asking me to leave the conversation.

No, the writing is literally a patchwork. You must understand, multiple routes were stitched together into one. Fixing Halsin goes intimately together with fixing the epilogue AND reintroducing cut content. We can psychoanalyse Halsin all day, but there cannot be one motive (as you're not looking at one Halsin!). He should not have been left as some kind of Frankenstein's monster.

I am encouraging you to take the defense of your chosen life style to another thread that is more suited for you to express your own personal lifestyle choices, and how they impact you as a player.

I will encourage you to offer insight on Halsin's character as a whole, where you look at the many different aspects of his writing, and things that are in direct contradiction.

You should also comment on your reasoning as to why Halsin was a wise choice to choose for such a niche romance, when he was requested by a lot of people, who wanted an actual relationship with him. He got the Daddy Halsin nickname because he gave and air of stability, family and belonging that was then removed from the game later on.

You should also comment on as to why he has gone from being a beloved character to one that makes the majority of players wildly uncomfortable to the point, where they are asking for the option to remove him from the party and there are being developed mods to do so.

I would also be interested to hear your opinion on the treatment of downplaying the response to male rape victims. For many many years they have been a shameful stigma where they were told to surpress it. Halsin confirms that he did this and that it worked.

He has even developed a kink for drow because it reminds him of being raped, imprisoned and likely forced to be cannibalistic.

I am also interested to hear your thoughts on the following:

- His trauma over loss of his family
- His trauma over loss of Thaniel
- His trauma of having to disconnect his sexuality from his self because of the drow
- His trauma from being seen by most as a sexual object
- His loneliness
- Him surpressing his emotions and reactions because people treat him as not having feelings

Add to this that he has connected his sexuality so much to his bearform that he looses control of it, making his sexuality primal where the rest of him is a balanced individual.

All these things together can give the impression that his sexuality and commitment issues are actually a really unhealthy coping mechanism, where he does not allow anyone close emotionally because of trauma and because of hurt.

I would love to hear why this is not a valid interpretation of the destructive behaviour we see from him.

@tarlonniel Noooo, I'm sure the idea has been implanted in their little brains when they see the image .

@tirar they invite you to leave the thread because you are distorting it, it is a thread to talk about how a character is written, not to discuss your sexual preferences or anyone else's because they don't matter (no offense). There are specific forums where you can discuss and debate your preferences in love and sexual relationships but the site is not a game forum. And believe me, no one is going to read those texts.

@Cowoline100% with you in what you have expressed

Larian fixes Halsin, your perverted 50's crisis has a solution without forcing us to see it, control the exhibitionist fetish. First notification

I'm not going to give up Larian, I'll get there in the end. You should know how obsessive we programmers are

This may be considered harrassment on the basis of a person's sexuality. Respectfully, please stop or you may end up banned. The tolerance is very low.

While I agree, this is not the same person and I think it was your end line about exebitionists. I think Silver was trying to be nice, as Silver seems to agree with you.

Yes, I cannot imagine that any of this language directed at the writer is friendly... nor its adjacency to the subject matter and attached stereotypes. I have seen people banned for less. I am not a mod, so this is not a threat. Merely advice because I don't want this thread locked because of one person... again.

Mis disculpas si no te he entendido. Con respecto a lo de exhibicionismo, creo que se notaba que no iba al escritor ni a ninguna persona en concreto, mencionar un nombre de una empresa (y sin decir "todos los de ") como si fuera una persona da una pista. Aún asi, si no se a entendido que es una broma lo borro.

I’m glad to see cooler heads prevail in this thread. It’s perfectly fine to be mad about how certain characters and romances are handled. However, I do ask that people refrain from translating those frustrations into accusing people of alleged sexual proclivities. There’s nothing rule-breaking on this particular page, but some earlier posts in this thread by different users seemed to be accusing a real person of such proclivities. Please remember these are real people with actual lives.


EDIT:
To clarify this post:
No one was reported. I’ve been reading this thread like I read many other threads. No one is in trouble. This is just a friendly request. At this time, I also have no intention of locking this thread anytime soon.

I had my part in this by examining the angle of the writer, well, writing for themselves. Because there is that type of writer. And Larian supports people catering to small audiences.

Nonetheless, at this point, we're veering into insults. I ask for more diplomatic language because, all it takes for this to blow up in your, and *my* face is one more angry person. Dragging the writer doesn't help the cause. While Larian has listened to respectful feedback before, they will not drudge through a page of insults. This thread was intended for player feedback, not venting. I understand the urge to vent. I have vented myself before. Even so, some things are better left unsaid. We should move on from the talking point of kinks and fetishes.

Seriously, I'm not going to explain the joke any further, I'm not going to point out that a writer is not mentioned and that it is not an insult to anyone. It is an ironic criticism of a way of writing a character by a company, and I have not understood why to notify a moderator for an ironic joke in which no one in particular is mentioned even if you do not understand it. In any case, the thread has been distorted quite a bit with this topic, which harms the rest of the colleagues. If you need any clarification in private please.

For the rest, and given the risk that someone will think that any comment is offensive and I notified the moderator and chose to withdraw, I have already made my point clear in different posts in the thread. I hope we get lucky and they fix it

It's not just that. People poured time and effort into this feedback thread with constructive criticism. If melodrama and exaggeration alongside assigning malevolent intent to a writer for the game start showing up on the thread, the first reaction by any community rep or writers themselves will be to leave the thread and discard it as not useful.

It really throws all the good criticism into the trash bin. Please, show restraint. It is true the criticism may not be addressed, or addressed how most want, which would be disappointing, but at least there's a chance it will as opposed to a zero chance when the developers withdraw from the forums because the signal to noise ratio deteriorated heavily.

I have not reported any posts, so I believe moderation may have been eyeing this discussion with distrust in real time. Yes, it may be a joke to you. That doesn't mean it cannot feel hostile to other people or escalate further. Jokes are an entryway and a probing. Everything that can be said has been said. It's best to return to the original prompt:

"[This is not intended as a disparaging of polyamory], but rather a discussion of whether, intentionally or not, Halsin constitutes a good representation of such, if his romance content fits his previous characterisation and behaviours and reads as a healthy and positive relationship between equals."

Once the topic has been clarified in moderation and I can make my jokes (if someone is bothered by them, they can simply not read me). Nobody is saying that Halsin doesn't have a polyamorous option (although to be honest even that needs serious fixes to be satisfactory), what is being said is that in addition to solving the problems of that option it should have a complete and satisfactory monogamous option so that all players can enjoy it. be satisfied. And because we're not getting into the character development, if we get into that topic the issue of Halsin's trauma (I don't want to go into spoilers in case someone hasn't gotten there) is a mere laugh, not to mention how someone who has gone through That's why he can have certain sexual fixations. This whole topic is very strange, as another player said, and it is surprising how with other characters they make a drama of similar traumas and for Halsin it is a bad joke.

It would also be nice if the character's motivations were better explained. What do you really know about Halsin at the end? That he is an elf who has sex with animals (well, with everything and everyone), that he is an archdruid and likes ducks. That's pretty much it, oh and he's either manipulative or has a split personality with Tav. It's really not great writing for a character that has gained so much importance if you think about it.

Larian fix the horny, hairy bear. Wouldn't it be Larian hair envy? First notification

If I am making any kind of misstep in terms of restraint/signal to noise ratio here, I do appreciate intervention.

So, I understand that this is the question: how do I interpret Halsin's loneliness, his stoicness, and him as a trauma survivor, in the context of him as a person who also displays kinks and fetishes, some of which are directly related to his past trauma, and who also practices nonmonogamy? Absolutely massive topic, I am trusting you and contributing my perspective. Thank you for asking for it! I'll do my best to answer without centering myself and my experiences, but also with the acknowledgement that there is no universal truth to attain when it comes to something as complex as trauma responses. In a therapy setting, with a real person, the reality of life introduces millions of variables, none of which can be said with certainty to cause any specific behavior, and healing with a therapist works to assist the real person with having all the tools they need to support how they might continue living on, carrying memories of traumas and coping day to day with the aim of restoring functionality, having self-awareness, and making choices that serve their aims of living whatever those may be. And I'll answer also from a perspective of literary analysis, since rather than a real person, this is someone's OC at the end of the day. I'll be watching the character do what he does, and the story told with him, without presuming it's trying to represent any universal prescription regarding real-world trauma; it's one OC. And it's one OC in an ensemble cast. As to what content I have to comment on, I speak to what is given in the game on release and some datamined content, which likely skews my interpretation because I know we're not intended to see that stuff. But I saw it, thank you dataminers :3

Well, that's a complicated question, for sure. I have taken some time to make a careful response. The first place that it takes me is to the qualifiers for sorting behaviors into adaptive vs maladaptive. The way I've had it explained to me is, maladaptive is how behavior is described when it brings us and/or others into conflict and dysfunction, maybe not right away, maybe in the long term. These maladaptive ways of behaving can have destructive impacts on ourselves and others if left unchecked. So, if we look at the impacts we're having on ourselves and others, we can come to understand our place in relation to others, and how our behaviors impact others, and check maladaptive behavior. Adaptive behaviors create our coexistence with others for a copacetic present and future community. This is my understanding, so it may not be consistent with the knowledge of someone trained in the field where these phrases come from. Apologies if my using them as shorthand for 'adaptive=in service of one's life with oneself and others' and 'maladaptive=not in service of one's life with oneself and others' is incorrect or reductive. I hope my use of them this way is not appropriative of anyone's diagnosis; mistakes I make are made through my ignorance.

My impression of Halsin is that he is preoccupied with how his behavior impacts others, in a good way. He is deeply self-aware about the danger posed by his bear form from the moment you recruit him. Specific detail, recruitment: As a result, he encourages the player character to leave him behind if that is not their aim. He knows his bear form is going to negatively impact someone else, and he warns about that. A behavior, the inability to control bear form, is something he cannot change about himself, it is a fixture of his behaviors that could complicate or negatively impact another person, so he advises that person about himself and lets them choose what to do with that information. More goblin camp> This wouldn't make sense mechanically, as it would remove a player character's agency, and it wouldn't make sense because he knows he'd die if he tried. And so, in this case, a mechanical result of this being a video game shows an aspect of this character to me, which is: he has a potentially destructive form, that he restrains, and informs others about, when he takes human form and can communicate.

Romance spoiler These are not, to me, maladaptive behaviors that carelessly introduce harm to others in the short or long term, but behaviors that reflect self-awareness and knowledge and care for the consequences of behaviors. It is a mature way to act.

In terms of him having romantic feelings, he is also aware that his behaviors could negatively impact a player character who does not like the same things he likes. He stops and explains his way of behaving before engaging in the behavior, giving the player character the opportunity to either continue on with him, or to disengage. I think it's telling, too, spoilers for some dialogues,
It's useful that you fielded this type of question: Could commitment avoidance as a whole be a trauma response?

As far as romance goes, there's no way to know for a real person. It may come to pass that healing that comes with time spent managing one's trauma responses moves nonmonogamy to a place of lesser importance than, for example, a commitment with a person who likes monogamy. It may come to pass that healing that comes with time spent managing one's trauma responses does not move the needle on nonmonogamy at all. Getting to a healed functioning place of coping with trauma is not a cure to liking living without commitments; and lack of commitment does not mean lack of interdependence and community and love. Many nonmonogamous people have trauma. Many monogamous people have trauma. The part of healing that is becoming aware of and working to remove maladaptive behaviors, by using our self-and-others awareness, is a responsibility that has no orientation. So, acting in a way that is harmful to others, whether we are committing to relationships or not, is what we must become aware of and work to be a better person about. Acting in a way that is responsible to others and their feelings, whether we are committing to relationships or not, is a requirement of being in relation with others. What is unhealthy is acting with carelessness towards others' fragile existences. Halsin is not careless. And that is the well from which I perceive him drawing his stoic attitude: carefulness. Restraint. And losing that careful restraint humiliates him, and humbles him when it happens. I think he has lived a long time and has processed trauma before, and lives alongside his acute trauma without letting it overtake his priority of care to others romantically; yet he can't engage because it could. spoilers for romance and quest Sometimes when you're dealing with shit, you're not available to be a good lover. His issues with duty of care do seem to be unmanaged, until the player: which I love and which, to me, shows healing from the place in which we found him. More on that: Those are my thoughts on his personal quest-related traumatic experiences.

Returning to the question, this time: Could commitment avoidance to player character be a trauma response?: Rewriting Halsin's character to be 'cured' of nonmonogamy after one or two therapeutic conversations about past and acute trauma with player character would reinforce negative stereotypes mononormative culture holds about CNM, that it is a maladaptive sexuality that a therapeutic intervention will eliminate. If those conversations happened and in no way revised his commitment standards to player character, that would not reinforce our dominant culture. If Halsin would be rewritten to take an interest in commitment in his bond with the player character around aspects of establishing a relationship, and committing beyond the sex, emotional support, and affection he provides with romance in his current characterization, I'd watch with interest as to how it's handled. It would not surprise me to see this, since mononormative culture holds the story of healing to look like movement towards traditional commitments to lovers. He easily could be rewritten to add an arc that involves commitment to player character after addressing and working through his trauma. This is how it happens for real people sometimes, of course, and maybe this is an OC reflective of that reality some people experience. That's not the reality other people experience, who heal, addressing and working through trauma, and continue to happily seek sex outside of commitment. Halsin could be written either way and be perfectly fine representation. One writing aligns with mononormative expectations, one writing does not. Neither path is worse or better than the other. Neither is healthier or unhealthier. They simply are ways of being a sexual being.

The place of guidance that I interpret him drawing his self-awareness is not a therapist or therapeutic conversation with the player character tbh. My interpretation is that he draws the wisdom to be aware of himself and how his behaviors impact others from his faith in the Oak Father and nature. He sees himself as part of nature, a place full of killing, fighting, mating, and eating each other, and he puts faith in nature as a place that has immutable laws of behavior and being. While these laws can be twisted from their path, like the curse, nature's true being must be restored.This is the way the world is to him: there is no changing what happens according to each thing's nature. So his awareness of himself and how his actions impact others is knowable through knowing nature. And he values nature, including his own nature, which is a nature that likes free love. It's what he likes and he hopes the one he makes his proposition to likes it too. This paradigm of understanding about himself is not, to me, signalling an unhealthy way of coping with what he's lived through, but an understanding borne out through a dependence on faith. He talks so much about nature. He's an archdruid. He believes in the restoration of nature and in his own embodiment of the tenets of nature.

How others see him as hot and desirable, whether or not that has formed trauma in him -- I wouldn't put on his character without an explicit description from the character describing his experience of being sexually desired as, specifically, traumatic. Trauma at being sexually desired: that's a really specific storyline. It is explored with another party member in the ensemble cast. That is how another party member feels, so it is represented in the game. Trauma is not universally experienced as a result being sexually desired, where'd you get this in his character?

Fetishizing his trauma: fine, harmless, normal, common. I get players wanting player character to have follow-up dialogue like that's like.. trauma mention aftercare.

Early access players owed a more widely-liked and anticipated type of guy after putting in three years of campaigning: Not how it worked out, Larian went in a different direction. Got a traditional wood elf character romance, sorry.

Downplaying the response to male rape victims: I am leaving this conversation to others for now, here in this venue of the official forums. I am uncomfortable sharing my perspective here.