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Edited as of 09.17.2023 with better and more accurate information. Thanks to all the commenters who contributed.
Edited as of 09.18.2023 with information regarding
Balduran's/Emperor's
lifespan being way, way longer than it should. Thank you to Ixal for pointing this out. The new info was added as a new paragraph in section one.

Edited as of 22.09.2023 to include more details and clarifications about the period between
Orin's betrayal of Durge and the game starting on the Nautiloid.

Thanks to Mod Zerubbabel for being a champ and editing this in in my stead, and to Cawyden for bringing forward the information. The reader will find many changes in points three and four.


Future updates may occur later in the thread

In this post, I will attempt to outline the plot from before the game starts all the way to the end and point out inconsistencies along the way. Technically, there is no main protagonist in this story, so I will be substituing the Dark Urge (shortened to Durge, and I will be treating it as a male given that the base Origin is always a male white dragonborn) as being the primary villain / hero in this story, being the one who's responsible for firing up the Absolute, and the one who is responsible for ending it (note: playing as any other origin results in the Durge's corpse being displayed in Orin's chambers). If I've missed something or otherwise got something wrong, please let me know and I will edit it in. My primary motivation for drafting this out stems from the fact that the story has a banger start, but as the pieces come together and as you reach the final conclusions, it just fundamentally falls apart. Therefore you can treat this post both as criticism and as simple reading material that you can use to review the story if you don't remember all the important details and turning points. Whenever I mention subjective interpretations, the text will look like this to clearly distinguish facts from speculation - this is something I must do as some parts of the plot are ambigious at best. As usual with my posts, it's a massive wall of text, so I hope you enjoy the read.

1. Before the game starts - Moonrise Towers and the Emperor

We begin our story with the baldurian adventurer we get to know as the Emperor - in reality, he is legendary adventurer Balduran, but as this is never important to the story, I will continue calling him as the Emperor. While a highly successful adventurer, he longed for more and more. In his path of searching for glory, he arrived to Moonrise Towers around the year 1000, where he stumbled into a dormant Mind Flayer colony from the now long gone Illithid Empire, beneath the Tower - how and why such a colony wasn't discovered despite major constructions taking place in the local area, Moonrise Towers included, is unknown and likely boiled down to luck. Here, he was defeated and turned into a Mind Flayer against his will and got dominated by the local Elder Brain. However, thanks to the efforts of the dragon Ansur, an entity that can break hivemind communications at will apparently has freed Emperor, who in his panic tragically struck down the beast.

Now free and disguised, he returned to Baldur's Gate. It is important to know that the power of disrupting hivemind control at will belongs to two other characters in the plot next to Ansur, Gith and her son Prince Orpheus, one of whom is dead, and the other sealed within the Astral Prism by the Githyanki Lich Queen Vlaakith, which will come into play later. However, it is important to establish just how much Mind Flayers retain from their original personality. Jergal (Withers) confirms that Illithids do not have souls, as it is consumed in the process of ceremorphosis, yet Emperor goes on as if nothing had happened.

Eventually, Emperor raises the group known as Knights of the Shield to be the de-facto ruling faction in Baldur's Gate, keeping everyone safe and trade alive. Crucially however, he makes no attempt at mentioning the existence of the colony to anyone, including Stelmane who was his fiercest and most loyal ally. One could assume that it comes down to him "wanting more" - which is one of his greatest motivators that led him to Moonrise - therefore letting the colony roam free to be defeated once they become a more credible threat, but I think what he meant was that he simply wanted more power for himself, and was overall happy with becoming an Illithid. Nevertheless, he is now dubbed as the Emperor by the people - such was his influence.

How Balduran / Emperor survived this long is not understood. Balduran naturally should have lived until around 1100-1180, but he disappeared in the 1000s beneath Moonrise Towers and of course turned into a Mind Flayer. Technically, his age "reset" as now he was technically 0 years old as a Mind Flayer, and Mind flayers live up to about 125-135 years. Even if we assume that Balduran was turned into a Mind Flayer at the last possible second of his natural life, he would have only made it to the 1300s at the latest, and not to 1492 when the events of BG3 takes place - meaning that Balduran/Emperor lived nearly 500 years. A possible explanation could be that, while Mind Flayers do age, their projected life expectancy is more-so a death ritual that normal Mind Flayers in a hive experience as part of the Elder Brain making them promises of an afterlife, but in reality it is their memories and experiences being harvested. Therefore, it is possible that Emperor was broken free of the Brain before he was old enough to be consumed, and is now aging indefinitely until some sort of natural death occurs.

2. The Dead Three and their Chosen

Bhaal, God of Murder, Bane, God of Tyranny and Myrkul, God of Bones, known as the Dead Three, were dead between 1358 and 1482 (with a lot of ambiguity as to when they were active again, more on that later) as a result of the Time of Troubles. These three are all ambitious, cunning and manipulative, but they are also rather arrogant and foolish, which is why later on in the story they initiate the Absolute plot, something that the Jergal, the original God of Strife, Death and Dead confirms as being a stupid plan that would blow up in their faces. Nevertheless, time passes, but it seems as if the Three don't resurface when they are supposed to, not Bhaal at the very least.

Bhaal was supposed to resurface upon the death of Gorion's Ward, which canonically occurs in 1482, but the existence of Durge contradicts this. Durge was handcrafted by Him and Him alone, and Durge himself spent many, MANY years in worship of Bhaal before he met with Gortash in 1482. Just how many years is very foggy, as you get to customize everything about Durge in game, including signs of aging, but we can very easily assume at the very least 20 years, thanks to an interaction that occurs when a Heal spell is used on Durge, where a sudden memory of the Durge's childhood of playing games emerges. In this memory, it is hinted at that Durge at this time could have already been a murderer, but was yet to find their way to the Temple of Bhaal. The lowest age you can go in customizing is making your guy look somewhat like they're in their very late teens / super early 20s, however, the pre-made origin looks very mature, which is why my assumption is 20 years at the very least. When exactly Bane and Myrkul become active again, I don't know, but probably during or at least some years before 1482. The Temple of Bhaal was also quite active, as Orin was born and raised in there - how old she is, I have no clue of, but likely around the same age as Durge. Thus we can estimate that Bhaal was active again in 1462, despite the fact that it should be impossible. Durge was also a Chosen of Bhaal even before Gortash met him, and him being elevated must have happened before 1482.

Now, we can talk about Enver Gortash, whose name I already mentioned. Some time before 1482, Gortash, a corrupt Baldurian politican breaks free of the hold of Raphael, a powerful devil and the son of Mephistopheles. Now free, he seeks to gain power once more - aside him being a slaver and arms dealer, he also earns the favour of Bane, Lord of Tyranny, becoming his Chosen. In 1482 - the same year he sells Karlach to Zariel, and the same year the Dead Three are supposed to be ressurected - he is tasked with reuniting the Dead Three (with Bane's and the other God's motivations likely being wanting to get revenge and power over giving up a large part of their divine powers during the Sundering) and so he meets with Durge, Chosen of Bhaal. They quickly develop a friendship as they both understand that their predecessors failed due to a lack of unity and trust, however, they wouldn't reach out to Myrkul's Chosen just yet for reasons unknown. Instead, the two commit to stealing the Crown of Karsus and it's Netherstones from Mephistopheles, with the likely goal of Netherese magic making up for the God's lost divine powers. To do this, they visit Helsik, a vendor of devilish supplies and the one and only way for mortals to visit the Hells without devilish interference. Opening a portal straight to the palace of Mephistopheles, they steal the desired artifacts and make a quick exit.

However, next to the Crown laid a portfolio called "Accelerated Grand Design" which outlined the concept behind suspended ceremorphosis using an enhanced elder brain via the Crown of Karsus, and that this revelation sparked the idea of the Absolute plot. Note that Mephistopheles likely knew the risks of such a plan, which is why he didn't commit to it, but he kept the portfolio around anyways. Now returned from the Hells, the two needed to find an Elder Brain to put the Crown on, but also they had to accelerate getting Myrkul into the fray as well, as the three Netherstones were supposed to be wielded by three different persons, with the best candidates being the Chosen of course. Note: Gortash's motivations are somewhat foggy. In his room ingame, if you lockpick his Gilded Chest, you can find the Accelerated Grand Design document, which has this line written in it: "This Absolute, however, obeys the commands of the Chosen of the Dead Three - and needless to say, as Bane is the God of Tyranny, our allies who worship Bhaal and Myrkul must in the end defer to US." However, Gortash also did not lie about his relationship with Durge in Act3, and it will forever remain a mystery if Gortash was planning a last-second switcharoo, as even if you take his deal, he dies before he could do anything with it. However, given that Durge is motivated by his urges to rule alone in Act3, it is safe to assume that all three of the Dead wanted to rule alone by the end, as even Ketheric was planning betrayal, something he confirms at the end of Act2.

It is after this point that Gortash discovers the Emperor's true identity, likely now trying to find an Elder Brain to put the crown on leading him on this trail. The log "Shield Steward Interrogation Log Scroll or letter" outlines that Duke Stelmane was "not herself" and that she was eating the brain of an executed prisoner, and that the person being interrogated by Gortash was caught snooping around by something blue and floating, "but then it was just Stelmane, smiling". Then they don't remember anything afterwards. This seems like a giant plot hole, as the Emperor mentioned Stelmane as an ally, not as an Illithid, and the genders are very clearly distinguished - Stelmane is a female, Emperor is a male, and an Illithid Stelmane would have been dubbed the "Empress". Either that, or the Emperor was masquerading as Stelmane, but this is never mentioned by anyone, so it remains ambigious at best.

Nevertheless, Gortash achieves his goal - through the Emperor, he discovers the mind flayer colony beneath Moonrise, then they get in contact with the Myrkulite Necromancer Balthazar to ressurect Ketheric. Alongside Ketheric being the best candidate to become Myrkul's Chosen, he is also intimately familiar with everything in and around Moonrise Towers, and is also a highly accomplished General. Ketheric becomes Myrkul's Chosen in exchange for ressurecting Isobel, his daughter who he's infatuated with, then Gortash reveals the Emperor for who he is, drags him to Moonrise and has Durge put the Crown on the local brain, and the Chosen of the Dead Three dominate the brain using the Netherstones, and so begins the 10 years of setting up the Absolute.

2.1 Ketheric's source of invincibility

Originally in the 1300s, Ketheric was a Selunite Paladin who sired his daughter Isobel. She was the light in his life, and raised her as a faithful cleric of Selune. He was so infatuated with Isobel that when Isobel met Dame Aylin, an invincible angel of Selune, and the two quickly became lovers, Ketheric was quick to doubt Aylin, but otherwise tolerated her presence. However, Isobel tragically passed away (likely having been murdered, but it is never confirmed by whom), and in his desperation, Ketheric quickly converted to being a Sharran. In Shar's name, he became a Dark Justiciar and raised a massive army. A fantastic timeline of events was provided by Zerubbabel:
Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
1. The site of an Ancient Temple for adherents of Shar. These Sharrans were able to build a giant temple, which is abnormal for this goddess. The Temple likely predates the Selunite village that was eventually built over it, but it is possible that the temple was built in secret by members of the community. I prefer the theory that the Temple predates the Selunite village, as keeping such a massive structure a secret sounds absurd.
2. A Selunite community and some Harpers and Heralds move in before the mid-1000s and construct the section of Moonrise Towers visited by Balduran. This community, based on the demographics of the Heralds' associated organizations, were mostly humans and elves. Given Ketheric Thorm is an elf, and is thus VERY long-lived to begin with, he may have been a founding member of this community as a younger man with no renown. *****(SIDENOTE: ISOBEL IS A HALF-ELF. Ketheric went into his relationship with Melodia KNOWING he was going to outlive her and probably their children, and he STILL had a tantrum when the inevitable happened. AND he held Aylin's immortality against her EVEN THOUGH HE ALSO HAD A MUCH LONGER LIFESPAN THAN HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN.)*****
3. The community develops into a full village by the mid-1300s. Sometime between 1367 and 1392, Ketheric becomes the leader of the community. Isobel is probably born in the earlier part of that time.
4. After the death of Ketheric's wife (and, later, Isobel), Ketheric revives the worship of Shar in the area, coming to some kind of arrangement with the goddess. During this time, according to the Mason's documents, Moonrise Towers underwent further construction, likely for military purposes. In the late 1300s, Ketheric builds a NEW Sharran temple (The upper level of the Grymforge) on top of the old one. Sometime in the 1400s, Ketheric initially wins the war against the Harpers and Druids (or comes very close to it), only for Orthon Yurgir and a Devil Army to ravage his forces in the final moment. Finally, the Harpers seal Ketheric in the Thorm Mausoleum in the 1400s. The Shadowcurse is released.
However, some time before Ketheric was defeated, he managed to trap Aylin in the Shadowfell. At latest this could have only occured in 1392, as Aylin claims in Act2 that she's been there for a century at that point. Then we jump to 1482 when Ketheric is ressurected and becomes the Chosen of Myrkul. Balthazar, likely by Myrkul's blessing, approaches Ketheric with the concept of a Soul Cage, something Ketheric could use to funnel Aylin's invincibility unto himself, which creates the following timeline:

-Ketheric traps Aylin in the Shadowfell but is not invincible yet, and then is promptly defeated in the early 1400s.
-Many years later in 1482, Ketheric is ressurected by the Myrkulite Necromancer Balthazar and tries to convince Ketheric to become the Chosen of Myrkul and to take part in the Absolute plot.
-Ketheric accepts on the only condition that his daughter is brought back as well. Isobel is ressurected, runs away, and he becomes the Chosen.
-Then they start putting in work to make the Absolute plot happen.
-At some point, Balthazar convinces Ketheric to create a Soul Cage around Aylin - they would have to physically go to Aylin and put her in the Cage.
-They collect the Four Orbs - whether they would have to go through the Gauntlet or if they would have to fight Yurgir is unknown. Shar would not open the door at will, as Ketheric has long forsaken Shar at this point.
-Now, Ketheric would want to seal away every bit of access to the Shadowfell and account for the smallest of disturbances (remember, he is a smart General person).
-Three Orbs are put back in the Gauntlet, and one ends up with Yurgir (somehow).
-The Spear of Night is never removed from it's resting place despite being the only weapon in existence that could kill Aylin, which would permanently remove Ketheric's source of invulnerability.
-In the event of Aylin breaking free and severing the invulnerability, baiting her to Moonrise Towers is the only way to have her reliably recaptured with some tentacle shenanigans.
-Ketheric can, at will, easily create another Soul Cage around Aylin, and does so in the final bossfight in Act2.

Unfortunately, this kind of falls apart, as Aylin, when you first talk to her, claims that nobody has visited her in a century, which is frankly impossible as the Soul Cage had to be put around her in the last 10 years somehow.

3. Spreading of the Absolute and the catalyst of an inevitable, unseen downfall

Now, with the Dead Three united, they can place the Crown atop the Elder Brain beneath Moonrise. Specifically, Durge places the Crown atop the Brain, which will quickly become important. With the influence of the Crown, they begin producing tadpoles infused by the netherese magic of the Crown, which grants them total and complete control over the tadpole, creating a state of "suspended ceremorphosis" where the tadpoles act as vessels for mind control. One unknown factor to Gortash and Ketheric was that the Brain itself - likely thanks to the netherese infusion - could have easily broken free if it so wished, but it began revering Durge and calling him it's master willingly. The Brain claims it is because Durge gave it "everything" and that his plan was devious, his cruelty unparalleled.

Now, it is important to remember that Gortash was the one who came up with the entire plan, Durge simply seeked to amass the largest bodypile ever known to man, so this comes off as if Durge became the leader among the Dead Three and has - for whatever reason - taken complete credit for everything. There is no reason to assume nor is there any indication that the Brain was lying at any point, so one can either assume that across this entire time of many years, the Brain simply never discovered the truth which it very easily could at any point, or that the Brain is simply an idiot and chose to follow the wrong master. It could also be that Durge was motivated from the start to rule alone as theorized earlier, and the Brain knew, and simply thought that the Bhaalspawn was the storngest and most ambitious of the Three. It is also not clear if Durge knew about him being revered, but it is more than likely that he knew. Either way, Durge is credited as the mastermind, and the Brain becomes subservient.

Nevertheless, their jobs are clear: Durge commits to a murderous spree on the streets of Baldur's Gate in the name of the Absolute, Ketheric begins raising an army of "True Souls" - people mind controlled by the parasites - under the banner of the Absolute to march on Baldur's Gate, and Gortash will be the one who "saves" Baldur's Gate as the desperate folk vote him into a position of total power. They all agree not to interfere with each others work in order to preserve trust, but also so they can work efficiently. It is agreed that in the end, they would all rule together - but as outlined before, the likelyhood of this was extremely small, and instead, only one would rule in the end. Either before or as they began this portion of the plan, Gortash reveals to the citizens of Baldur's Gate for what the Emperor is - a Mind Flayer, ruining the reputation of the Knights of the Shield permanently, and has him dragged to Moonrise Towers to be put under domination by the Brain once more.

Every piece of the plan was being put into position, until just before the game begins. Durge's sister, Orin - who, according to Orin, was seen as a faithful servant of Bhaal and looked upon with reverence by Durge - while both were in Moonrise Towers, betrayed him and fatally wounded him out of jealousy - specifically carving out Durge's brain, which crucially causes Durge to develop total and permanent amnesia later on in the story. She then promptly put a tadpole in Durge, looted his Netherstone and sent word to the other two Chosen that the Temple of Bhaal has appointed a new representative, leaving Durge to bleed out. Why Orin would tadpole a severely brain damaged Durge, and a Durge on the brink of death is unknown - unfortunately, her being crazy does not explain this, as if she were to torture Durge, she'd actually torture the tadpole instead.

Nevertheless, Durge is left to bleed out, but is then found by Balthazar's personal assistant, Kressa Bonedaughter. Always having wanted to experiment with the tadpole but never having been given the chance, she saves Durge to use him for her own twisted needs. According to Kressa, Durge's mind was so special that despite the tadpole, an entity that is supposed to facilitate total and complete mind control, he was able to form independent thoughts and retain some memory. Not long after, Balthazar finds out that his assistant is constantly being distracted by "her pet project" and gets so frustrated that, unknowningly, orders Durge to be tossed out.

Now, an important detail to remember here is that Netherstones lose control over the Elder Brain if their holder is slain. And there was a period of time where a Netherstone was not in control as Orin looted Durge, and yet the Brain was not acting up like it does in Act3. And if we similarly read ahead, in Act3, the Brain tells Durge and the gang that "The moment the tadpole was placed in your head, you became a pawn in my Grand Design." So, that means, that an Elder Brain, that never once lied about it's dedication to it's master has forsaken it in SECONDS. Like, the turnaround on this was so quick, for an entity that is otherwise a biological quantum supercomputer that it has me completely perplexed as to just why exactly would the Brain make that move, after an UNSUCCESSFUL assassination attempt. Even if not instantenously, but the moment Durge got tadpoled, and/or the moment Durge's Netherstone temporarily lost control, the Brain would have known that a terrible fate befell it's revered master. Why wouldn't the Brain lash out in rage, to save the one person that gave it, and I quote, everything? The entity that never once even entertained the idea of betrayal due to how much it looked up to him?

Instead, the Brain, on the spot, literally seconds after Orin turned her dagger on Durge, it decided that Durge is a "Disgraced Master" and a "Pawn in the Grand Design" - a Grand Design the Brain was yet to craft. Perhaps the single most confusing thing out of this entire ordeal is that the Brain did not hold the now tadpoled Durge on a leash, yet if we read ahead into the game, later on BOMBARDS Durge's tadpole with orders to "Follow my Chosen" and "Transform into a Mind Flayer". So why give a grace period? What changed? Was Durge not supposed to be a simple thrall in the end, a pawn? Did it want to ensure that Durge was to stay with Kressa so that Durge isn't tossed into a ditch, making sure that the other two Chosen don't find out about Orin's betrayal so that Durge can be put into the Nautiloid, only to then hinder it's own plan by letting Durge use the Astral Prism against the Brain (and again, while bombarding Durge with orders during that time)? Even if the previous question I proposed was intended to be answered, it wasn't, and in fact, there is no evidence, hint or reason to suggest anything else other than the Brain simply experienced a BSOD. Biological quantum supercomputer, mind you.

And let's just speak about Orin a little bit. It is well established that as a stark contrast to Durge, who views murder as the ultimate goal, Orin instead views murder as art. Note that if you do not play Durge origin, his corpse is promptly displayed in her bedchambers. However, if you play Durge origin, he is of course alive and well in the Nautiloid. Which prompts the question - as an artist, why would she forsake her greatest masterpiece, the cruelest of betrayals? Why would she leave Durge's body behind after brutally mutilating him? Wouldn't she burn Moonrise to the ground searching for the corpse of her masterpiece? While she isn't the sanest of characters, she has shown herself to be incredibly smart and intelligent when she needs to be - especially when it comes to murder and her art. So why is she being an idiot? And why isn't Bhaal doing anything about this? Wouldn't He want to punish such insubordination? Bhaal thrives on betrayals, but Durge was crafted to be the PERFECT Bhaalspawn after many failures over and over again - and he was just recently ressurected after one such massive failure, the Time of Troubles.

Sidenote: In the book "Elder Brain Domination" found in Ketheric's bedchambers in Moonrise in Act2, Ketheric hints that before the Crown was placed atop the Brain, the Bhaalists were already experiencing leadership struggles. However, this could have not been related to Orin replacing Durge, as the crowning happened in 1482, whereas the betrayal in 1492 (or at the very least, very shortly before the game began). I am not sure what to make of this revelation - it feels as if this is a leftover from early access, either when Durge's story was still in the works but unrefined, or some other completely different plot point that never made the final cut, or simply they forgot to cut this book out of the game or otherwise edit it to reflect accurate events.

Nevertheless, the Brain, now with it's master disgraced, begins crafting it's Grand Design. It began consipiring to turn the Dead Three against one another. To set the Grand Design in motion, the Brain reveals the existence of the Astral Prism to the Dead Three (which makes sense that it would know about it, given that the person inside caused the downfall of the Illithid Empire) in the form of dreams. Gortash specifically described it in his journal (called The Astral Prism Heist) as the following:

Originally Posted by Gortash
"... I had (a dream) about the githyanki threat to our Accelerated Grand Design, my research led me to(...) old archives left behind in Moonrise Towers(...). These records(...) mentioned a relic or artefact called the Astral Prism. (...) This artefact was reputed to be able to project a field that disrupted illithid psionics. Such an artefact would clearly be an existential threat to both our Absolute ambitions and the Grand Design. All three of the ancient sources agreed that the Astral Prism was in the hands of the girhyanki lich-queen Vlaakith. Thus was born the plan to send a tadpoled strike team in a regrown nautiloid piloted by the Emperor to steal the Astral Prism from Vlaakith."

In a lucky turn of events, Durge is put on the exact same Nautiloid that Thrall Emperor is soon to pilot, and is soon to steal the Astral Prism. Again, this could be either lucky or intended by the Brain, unfortunately it's motivations are so foggy during this period that I simply can't definitely outline the mechanics of how Durge ended up on the Nautiloid. Nevertheless, this, Gortash's and Ketheric's general distrust towards Orin alongside future events (mainly the death of Ketheric) causes the three Chosen to fight amongst each other like children, exactly as the Brain intended.

One unforeseen development is that, somehow, the Sharrans of Baldur's Gate - Shadowheart included - catch wind of the Strike Team's plan, and at some point, either before venturing to the Astral Plane to steal the Astral Prism (somehow, I guess the Githyanki don't guard the front door, especially against Ghaik) or after the Nautiloid returned to Faerun, they sneak on board.

Before we arrive to the game's trailer and discuss the three Acts, I'd like to take a quick step back to point out another plot hole. It is established that Durge was tadpoled by Orin specifically. However, at the start of the trailer, the player sees Lae'zel and the player themselves being tadpoled. Therefore, canonically, Durge gets tadpoled twice. This makes absolutely no sense even if you wanted to turn Durge into a super soldier, as you would only be tadpoled multiple times if any extra tadpoles already collected the knowledge, experiences and powers of their previous hosts - aka. True Soul tadpoles. The trailer's tadpole however is a completely newborn one, therefore it makes no sense to be tadpoled by it.


4. Baldur's Gate III

And so we arrive to the game's trailer. Now, the timeline here is confusing at best, and I will attempt to structure it in the most coherent way possible. It is important to point out, that while the Mind Flayer who in the trailer tadpoles Lae'zel and Durge looks remarkably similar to Emperor, does not have the same eye colour as him (trailer one has orange eyes, while Emperor has purple eyes). Personally, I am still willing to accept that the Mind Flayer in the cinematic IS Emperor, mainly based on the fact that Larian forgot about the fact that Emperor is quite literally Balduran, and so has Emperor by proxy - but of course, the facts don't suggest so. Therefore, we can assume that Zerubbabel's first timeline is what is correct.


Once the game begins, Shadowheart posesses the Astral Prism, yet she is trapped in a Pod, now tadpoled. Therefore, the following must have happened:
1. Thrall Emperor's strike team successfully steals the Astral Prism from Vlaakith.
2. The Sharrans on board manage to get their hands on the artefact.
3. Thrall Emperor and his forces retaliate, either killing or putting the Sharrans in Pods. It is at this point, when Thrall Emperor holds the Prism in his hands that the Brain releases him, and so he becomes normal Emperor again. He assumes that it must be because the artefact did something to disrupt the hivemind communication, so he plants the artefact on Shadowheart, and enters it. Inside, he finds an imprisoned Orpheus that he can use to wield his power with will and precision.
4. In the meantime, the events of the trailer take place - the Githyanki catch up with the Nautiloid, the drive-by over Baldur's Gate and Avernus happens, Durge, Lae'zel and Shadowheart manage to make an escape back to Faerun - where, conveniently, the Githyanki don't follow them.
5. Conveniently, once Durge and the rest of the gang fall off the ship, they are the only ones that he saves with some levitation magic.
6. Whatever random adventurers he managed to gather, he guides in the guise of the Dream Visitor.


Alternatively, let's assume that the Mind Flayer in the trailer is Emperor, and the Mind Flayer that Durge shares a glance with before he gets knocked out of the ship is also the Emperor (despite the garment change). The following timeline must have occured in that case:
1. Thrall Emperor's strike team successfully steals the Astral Prism from Vlaakith.
2. As soon as Thrall Emperor is near the Prism, the Brain lets him go, giving him the illusion that the Prism is what disrupted hivemind communications.
3. Quickly gathering his bearings, he figures out he can enter the Prism and use Orpheus inside. He quickly leaves it, only to find himself and his crew in the middle of a Sharran ambush that he now has to defeat.
4. The Sharrans are either killed or put in Pods, ready to be tadpoled.
5. Trailer starts, the Emperor tadpoles several people he deems to be worth (by whatever standard).
6. He plays along all the way until Durge and the gang are knocked out of the ship, saves them with levitation magic, and then enters the Prism while they are KO-d.
7. He assumes the form of the Dream Visitor to guide his hand-picked adventurers on their journey.


Please note that both of these timelines are in italics, because there is no confirmation or details on just what exactly happened.

During their adventures, Emperor shows himself to the gang, posing as a Dream Visitor to convince them that he is the source of their protection (instead of posing as his actual identity of Balduran, despite most origins and possible characters being Baldurians, who live(d) in Baldur's Gate and are likely familiar, if not enthralled by the tales of the legendary adventurer Balduran), and that with this protection they can abuse the tadpoles to fight fire with fire, but always conveniently has to dip out when the gang demands answers out of him (which, in truth is him fighting Orpheus's Honor Guard, who were also imprisoned). Opinions between the companions vary from "ghaik lies" to "fuck yes" - given there is no negative consequence for having a tadpole, we can safely assume that the Durge goes along with it and gets even more tadpoles, despite looking for a healer/cure at the same time. Before we move on to Creche Yllek, I'd like to talk a little bit about Emperor, and just a little bit more about the Brain (which might seem repetitive).

Throughout this entire journey, Emperor has completely failed to use his persona as Balduran, something we know for a fact that he retained despite his mind, body and soul having been consumed. His characteristics are based on being the heroic adventurer type, even after having been turned into a Mind Flayer, and his goal is very clearly defined - he wants to rid the world of the Elder Brain and stop the Absolute plot. However, he constantly conflicts with such a clearly established goal. The writers wanted him to be everything - a person you can trust, a person you shouldn't trust, a person promising you power, a person who you can be friends with, your saviour, your slaver... your lover? It's presented in a way where the player is incentivized to distrust Emperor, - a very blatant relic of when Daisy was a thing that existed back in EA - but later on at the beginning of Act3, you get to use Detect Thoughts, and verify that EVERYTHING he is saying is sincere and true. So why would he make his own life more difficult? He has become an illithid, and with his experience to go with it, surely he must understand how to forge words like no other? Why is his CHA so low? Allow me to indulge myself and copy paste a simple fix for our boy that I made up not too long ago, a fix that would appear in the very first dream sequence.

"Another adventurer in the same boots as I was (actually giving the "I am just like you" line a meaning) - infected and powerless against the inevitable. My name is Balduran, and I am here to help you on your quest. The artefact you hold neutralizes the effects of Ceremorphosis, and I believe we can take advantage of that. These parasitic creatures are vessels for knowledge, experience and power. No doubt that on this path, you will stumble into many infected warriors. Extract their powers, and use them to your benefit. You may think that I am nothing more than illithid illusions, or you might think whatever else, but I will tell you this: keep that artefact close. It will be you and yours's salvation, and maybe, it yet be mine."
Of course, give it to an actual writer who crafts dialogue better than I do, but that should be the takeaway. That already establishes a strong foundation for Emperor/Balduran's character, because right now, Emperor is a bloody ping-pong.

And another little segment about the Brain, and a criticism that is of course Durge specific. Again, we must question why the Brain was so quick to turn on Durge. But let's assume a world that isn't completely insane and pretend that the Brain didn't forsake Durge. Allow me to copy paste a previous comment of mine once more. "You could even make it so that the Durge is special in that they don't need the Astral Prism to stay sane as the Brain goes out of its way to help Durge on his journey, trying to reunite with its master for an especially evil ending. There could be a real big conflict between Emperor and the Brain (you could even throw in Bhaal to the mix through Sceleritas Fel), putting an amnesiac Durge into an incredibly difficult circumstance. Given that'd require a significant rewrite and tons of dev work, but after playing games like DAO, different outcomes based on what origin you play is a standard I adopted." It would just simply make sense, and I feel like would clearly establish Durge as the main protagonist / antagonist of BG3, because, as said at the beginning of this post, there is none currently.

Anyhow, Creche Yllek time. Upon visiting the Creche, and all the events that take place within, the gang learns from a much annoyed Emperor (who forgot to account for the fact that he might not be trustworthy to others) that the Githyanki are after the prism because it would constitute the downfall of Vlakiith (because if the Githyanki were to find out that in truth, Vlakiith holds no power over the illithid, and that she simply desired to be a God, which is why she locked Orpheus away to make sure her rule can't be disuputed, all Githyanki would surely rebel and a coup d'état would be quick to follow), meaning that the gang now has to face two overwhelmingly powerful factions at the same time (which is not true, there is like one pack of Githyanki in Act2 and they fall like flies and an optional pack in Act3 if you search Emperor's old HQ) to retain the Prism, but it also serves as confirmation that the gang NEEDS the Prism else all is lost.

They are also joined by Jergal in the guise of Withers, the original God of Strife, Death and Dead. As to the why of it, Zerubbabel sums it up perfectly:
Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
I think the reason no one before the Dead Three undertook the Accelerated Grand Design is that, as Jergal points out, the plan is stupid. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul are known for being crafty, cunning, and manipulative, but their plans often blow up in their faces because they are arrogant, shortsighted, and recklessly foolish. Myrkul and Bane were the ones who started the Troubles in the first place when they tried to steal the Tablets of Fate from Ao. Jergal notes that the other Gods (and devils!) definitely noticed the disappearance of souls and worship, and even after the Second Sundering, would find ways to intervene. Mystra, Shar, Selune, and Jergal should not be allowed to intervene by Second Sundering rules, yet clearly they find a way due to the dire nature of the situation. Jergal especially rarely intervenes in anything overtly for any reason, yet he springs into action immediately; screwing with souls and the nature of the universe and fate PISSED HIM OFF. Mephistopheles, evil though he may be, is still a lawful sort who would not take such revolutionary risks.

Now grouped up with the druid Halsin, who warns the gang about the Shadow Curse but fails to tell them that a Torch counters it, they visit the shadow cursed lands to get near Moonrise Towers. On their path, they conveniently run into the Harpers at Last Light's Inn, and an Isobel who ran away from her father Ketheric, knowing that he became something terrible (remember: the Harpers and Isobel were set up long ago, so lucky or convenient it might be, the mechanics work out). This Selunite cleric is quite literally the Last Light, keeping the area protected against the shadows. Jaheira, the High Harper and boss around these parts quickly identifies the tadpoled gang as True Souls, but after some Astral Prism action, realizes that the gang is her last hope. Either by infiltrating Moonrise Towers, posing as True Souls to learn about Balthazar and his quest of hunting a relic for Ketheric, or by learning about a "big secret in the mausoleum" from another Thorm family member, the gang makes their way to Dame Aylin, frees them, and together with the Harpers they chase Ketheric into the Mind Flayer colony.

Note: The Emperor, still posing as the Dream Visitor at this time, remarks that "oh my, how could this colony be here the whole time?" which, my god, is disconnected as hell. Why didn't he warn anyone about this for what seems to be hundreds of years? Why doesn't he later acknowledge in Act3 once he fully reveals himself that this is the very same colony he was dragged to? Why doesn't he prepare the gang for a potential face-off against the Elder Brain, something he knows that exists and is located beneath Moonrise? Absolutely useless.

On this path, Durge stumbles into a crack in the chimney wall, which causes an interaction between him and the Brain, who then promptly scolds the amnesiac Durge for abandoning it, and that he is a disgraced master (and later in Act3 claims that Durge became a pawn in the Grand Design once he was infected with a tadpole). I guess the Brain just decided that the Durge isn't worth over a betrayal that wasn't even entirely successful, and especially if the Durge would have taken an evil playthrough up until this point, doesn't even consider re-teaming. Anyways, the gang here fully learns of the Absolute plot, watch in horror as Grand Duke Ravengard is tadpoled (who is to be used by Gortash to make himself a High Duke), Orin and Gortash leave with the Brain and the army to march to Baldur's Gate, and leave Ketheric behind to collect the Astral Prism - which they later admit as a big mistake born from overconfidence (which is rather silly given Gortash is supposed to be a very, very smart person) - and then kill Ketheric and collect his Netherstone. (Note: Ketheric and Balthazar both never once recognize Durge as Durge despite both having worked with him - looks like the Myrkulite leadership aren't the only ones suffering from amnesia in this story.)

At this point, it's clear in the gang's mind that they are the only one who have the power to combat the now Dead Two and the Elder Brain. Gortash and Orin quickly begin turning against each other despite the severity of the situation, as the Brain is now breaking free thanks to losing the control of a single Netherstone. On the road towards Baldur's Gate, after one such "brain wave", the Emperor also happens to be fighting the Honor Guard and can't multitask, so he asks the gang to enter the portal and help him, where he is forced to reveal his true identity. The gang has no choice but to trust him, and gives them the option to indulge in partial ceremorphosis. Either way, Durge makes their way to Gortash first (and on the way there learns to his horror that he's a Bhaalspawn, something that is barely relevant in Act3 really), who delightfully welcomes his old friend, and the two have a lovely chat about the past, present and future. His deal is to have Durge kill Orin and retrieve the Netherstone so they can wrestle back control. Orin also makes her entrance by kidnapping someone from Durge's camp, and her deal is that "Papa wants to see us fight a duel in front of him, go and kill Gortash and let's see which one of us is fit to be Chosen and the person who dominates the Brain".

Whatever route you take, the Durge ends up being brutally murdered by Bhaal, and ressurected by Withers, something that none of your companions really care about. I guess Bhaal wouldn't want to salvage whatever He can out of Durge, as He could very much continue bombarding him with nightmares and intrusive thoughts, until eventually he establishes total mind control atop the Netherbrain and win the game (which, as a sidenote: if you side with Bhaal but defy him atop the Netherbrain, and on the docks decide that "yeah the brain was ez surely bhaal is too" Durge just gets mind controlled like, four seconds afterwards. It's not clear why Bhaal wouldn't do this at like, any point - there is nothing that would imply that something is stopping him from doing so whenever he desires, including any potentional interference by the tadpole. In fact, now that I think about it, that would make a great twist of events if the Brain wasn't so crazy - a tadpoled Durge is saved from Bhaal's control, allowing the Bhaalspawn and Brain to team up to defeat Bhaal, giving Durge the opportunity to rise as the new God of Murder, but whatever. Also, why not move the ressurection scene to the docks if you defy Bhaal in both cases and choose to commit suicide on the docks?)

Anyways, Durge tries to dominate the Brain, but all that Netherese magic building up evolved it into a Netherbrain, which basically makes the Nethershards useless unless wielded by a Mind Flayer (I guess). Either the Emperor, or a Durge who willingly becomes a Mind Flayer to undertake this task, eats the brain of Orpheus to learn to defend themselves against hivemind comms (which was completely unnecessary, but we don't care about side quests here), fights their way atop the Netherbrain which was now assaulting Baldur's Gate, defeats it, and they destroy the brain. Then the docks scenes happen and I forget to write an epilogue for this post because Larian forgot to do so in game as well.

5. Just kidding, I do have a conclusion

Now, as you might have noticed, there are a lot of crucial plot points that either don't have explanations, are completely nonsensical in their explanations, or are too vague to be interpreted in a definitive way. It has been brought up many times, and I will bring it up again - changing Daisy from EA to the Emperor for the live release and adding Durge at the last moment has clearly upset the creative vision significantly and it has left a lot of plot holes and inconsistencies to be filled, while forgetting to account for significant plot points in Act3 - mainly, the existence of Raphael who is also a major player in this fight for control, but also Kith'rak Voss's story is completely lost, robbing the main plot from THE best outcome, which are: Raphael killed, Brain destroyed and Orpheus liberated, who then rides away with Voss and Lae'zel to free the Githyanki from Vlakiith's tyranny.

There is a major lack of QA, something that is very evident as the actual Dark Urges are very much missing from Durge, while (and this is true for any origin) companions get less and less reactive to the events that happen around them (and if you want to read my criticism on Durge, I've written two posts about them, one for Good Urge: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=895867#Post895867 - and of course, one for Evil Urge: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=891300#Post891300 ). I hope Larian considers releasing a Definitive Edition for this game, because despite my criticisms, this game is actually a strong foundation for one of the best RPGs of this decade. And if they do work on it - I'll gladly send in my CV for a QA position.

Last edited by Zerubbabel; 22/09/23 10:06 PM. Reason: Timeline corrections, typo fixes
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Previous somewhat-related thread, if you're curious: link.

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Clarifying your italics in no particular order:


The timeline also annoys me a lot, as many things DO NOT MAKE SENSE. Here are my attempts to piece together more information based on what you've written:

In a vault in the Counting House, Gortash's personal documents explain that the Nautiloid was dispatched to the Astral Plane to seize the Prism from Vlaakith, as it was the only device that could possibly disrupt their plan. Before the prism was lost, the Githyanki were simply fighting the Cult of the Absolute. The Emperor is the Mindflayer who tadpoles the protagonists in the introductory cutscene of the game (same armor and head shape), having been sent on the Nautiloid as a thrall to seize the Astral Prism from Vlaakith, which her predecessors had used to imprison Orpheus many, many years ago. The Sharrans caught wind of the Absolute's plan and sent Shadowheart and a covert strike team to steal the Astral Prism from Vlaakith first. Somehow (and it is not explained how) between the opening cinematic and the end of the tutorial, the Emperor gets locked in the Prism, suddenly gaining free will (set free from BOTH the Brain AND the Absolute), and using his power to save the Player Character from hitting the ground during the crash. What makes the most sense now in order is that:
1. Emperor and the Nautiloid successfully stole the Prism from Vlaakith.
2. Shadowheart and the Sharrans were smuggled aboard the Nautiloid or had plane-hopping technology, and stole the Prism from Emperor.
3. Thrall Emperor caught them, and executed the Sharrans and (later) tadpoled Shadowheart.
4. Thrall Emperor continues to tadpole people as an emergency measure for human cannon fodder while being pursued by Githyanki Dragonriders. At this point he is still a thrall and is trying not to bring the Githyanki straight to the Elder Brain and the Chosen Three. If the Githyanki found the Brain while in the vicinity of the Prism, the Red Dragons would EVISCERATE the Ghaik immediately.
5. As it takes time for the Astral Prism to have effect, eventually Emperor's prolonged exposure to the Astral Prism grants him free will.
6. Lae'zel and the Player Character get tadpoled in the opening cinematic.
7. Suddenly endowed with free will, Emperor investigates the cause, the Prism. He finds a way in and stays there.
8. Dragonriders cause enough damage that you are released from the pod and the tutorial begins. Otherwise, Emperor psionically willed you to be freed from the pod.

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Additionally, the Emperor is apparently Balduran himself, not just any Baldurian Adventurer. Balduran founded the city of Baldur's Gate (though apparently other iterations of Baldur's Gate existed prior-- continuity issues from preexisting Realms lore). Balduran "founded" the city and went missing sometime in the 1000s DR, with Baldur's Gate 1-2 taking place in the late 1300s, and Baldur's Gate 3 taking place in 1492. Moonrise Towers predates Ketheric Thorm's activities, who was active 100 years before Baldur's Gate 3, as a 1993 text indicates "Naernythra Thaloudyn was the holder of the Crescentcoat office, and lived at Moonrise Towers," with no mention of Thorm. The region of Moonrise Towers was, from oldest to youngest:
1. The site of a dormant Illithid Colony that survived from the time of the Illithid Empire. It has a Nautiloid, which means it is very old as those rarely survived from the days of the Empire. It was likely not active, probably remaining dormant and biding its time for a moment to reemerge. This is why Balduran was only tadpoled when he actively sought it out during his adventures. Only the interference of the Absolute and the Dead Three caused it to become active. This particular colony, however, was probably responsible for most Illithid activity in the southwestern Sword Coast. This Mind Flayer colony could be as old as -11,000 DR, but is probably somewhat younger than that.
2. The site of an Ancient Temple for adherents of Shar. These Sharrans were able to build a giant temple, which is abnormal for this goddess. The Temple likely predates the Selunite village that was eventually built over it, but it is possible that the temple was built in secret by members of the community. I prefer the theory that the Temple predates the Selunite village, as keeping such a massive structure a secret sounds absurd.
3. A Selunite community and some Harpers and Heralds move in before the mid-1000s and construct the section of Moonrise Towers visited by Balduran. This community, based on the demographics of the Heralds' associated organizations, were mostly humans and elves. Given Ketheric Thorm is an elf, and is thus VERY long-lived to begin with, he may have been a founding member of this community as a younger man with no renown. *****(SIDENOTE: ISOBEL IS A HALF-ELF. Ketheric went into his relationship with Melodia KNOWING he was going to outlive her and probably their children, and he STILL had a tantrum when the inevitable happened. AND he held Aylin's immortality against her EVEN THOUGH HE ALSO HAD A MUCH LONGER LIFESPAN THAN HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN.)*****
4. The community develops into a full village by the mid-1300s. Sometime between 1367 and 1392, Ketheric becomes the leader of the community. Isobel is probably born in the earlier part of that time.
5. After the death of Ketheric's wife (and, later, Isobel), Ketheric revives the worship of Shar in the area, coming to some kind of arrangement with the goddess. During this time, according to the Mason's documents, Moonrise Towers underwent further construction, likely for military purposes. In the late 1300s, Ketheric builds a NEW Sharran temple (The upper level of the Grymforge) on top of the old one. Sometime in the 1400s, Ketheric initially wins the war against the Harpers and Druids (or comes very close to it), only for Orthon Yurgir and a Devil Army to ravage his forces in the final moment. Finally, the Harpers seal Ketheric in the Thorm Mausoleum in the 1400s. The Shadowcurse is released.

It is also possible, based on Ketheric's brother Malus and the existence of (elven) Thorm corpses in the Mausoleum, that the Thorms were ALWAYS Sharrans (Ketheric's ancestors being the builders of the first Sharran Temple), and Ketheric renounced his secret faith for Melodia, only to relapse into the arms of the goddess of loss when his wife died.

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The Dead Three were dead between 1358 and 1482, give or take a few years in either direction, as a result of the Time of Troubles. This means that Balthazar could only be an active Myrkulite Necromancer 10 years before Baldur's Gate 3 AT THE EARLIEST. This gives exactly 10 years AT MOST for the ENTIRE conspiracy of the Absolute to be set up. 1482 is also the year Gortash sold Karlach to Zariel. So, your timeline sounds mostly correct. In order:
1. Gortash makes a deal with Bane and befriends Durge (early 1482).
2. Gortash sells Karlach to Zariel for infernal engine purposes (mid-late 1482).
3. At some point, he discovers information about the Crown of Karsus and the Illithid Colony beneath Moonrise Towers.
4. To get someone with familiarity with Moonrise Towers, the Shadowcursed Lands, and military affairs, Gortash and Durge task the Myrkulite Necromancer Balthazar to resurrect Ketheric. He only cooperates in exchange for Isobel's resurrection. Otherwise, he was never dead and was merely sealed in the Mausoleum, agreeing to cooperate in exchange for his daughter's resurrection.
5. For added security to his part of the deal, Myrkul (through Balthazar) devises a trap for Ketheric and Balthazar to set upon Aylin so Myrkul's champion could be immortal. How an apostate Ketheric and heretic Balthazar imprisoned Aylin in Shar's portion of the Shadowfell is beyond me. The Daughter of Selune with lawful stupid Paladin-Brain was probably lured by rumors of a revived Sharran Chosen. Balthazar's Soul Cage magic probably comes straight from Myrkul himself.
6. The rest of the plan proceeds as usual.


EDIT: I cover the motive of the REAL beings behind and against the Absolute in this thread: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=892272#Post892272

As for particular motivations beyond the Chosen Three,

The objective of the Dead Three was not to be worshiped or to acquire souls, as the nature of the Mind Flayers negates these benefits. Given the Dead Three are quasi-divine beings after the Second Sundering, they chose interference in the mundane over the rest of their divine powers. I believe the Dead Three were building an impossibly massive army while simultaneously draining other gods of souls and worship. The purpose of building a powerful army in the Realms while also weakening all other Gods was to recover enough artifacts and capabilities to ascend to Greater Godhood while maintaining full control over the Realms. Recall that despite Ao declaring none would ascend to Godhood without his explicit approval after the Second Sundering, Gale can still use Karsus' Artifacts to ascend. If the Absolute hit a critical mass, it would be able to plane-hop to deny the Greater Gods ANY worshipers. At the same time, the Dead Three would use Karsus' Artifacts, Illithid capabilities, and other things they found to "build" a fully Ascended God out of Karsite and Far Realm materials (and potentially materials from the future, as this Illithid being would be able to assimilate all of the remnants of the Illithid Empire as well). Given all cosmologies are threatened by the same Far Realm, it stands to reason that components of this Divine Abomination would be beyond the control of Ao. I mention Ao because he's the reason the Dead Three died in the first place, and there are few beings quite as petty as the Dead Three. They would definitely want a contingency against the guy that basically killed them last time. Once this Divine Abomination of Karsite and Far Realm essence was completed and the Greater Gods were fully weakened and unable to intervene due to the post-Sundering rules, the Absolute would simply "eat" the other Gods, probably starting with Cyric. The motivations of the Dead Three are revenge and power: Revenge against fate, and the power to control it. In light of this particular motive, Jergal probably refers to Ao when he first meets the player. If BOTH Jergal and Ao are omniscient, then they probably formed an unsteady alliance to stop the Dead Three in light of their mutual interest: Fate spinning along as it should.

Of course, one can argue that Bane just wanted to rule everything, and Bhaal just wanted to kill. But these motives do not explain Myrkul's involvement. I think it makes very little sense for these gods to take on such extraordinary risks and efforts for their own amusement, while also denying themselves worship and souls. As Withers notes, Mindflayers do not have souls, and mind-controlled worship does not endow Gods with greater powers. If Myrkul was not getting souls or worship, and cared little for tyranny or murder, then he needed an even greater motive, being the second strongest of the Dead Three (after Bane).

Last edited by Zerubbabel; 17/09/23 02:26 AM.

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Ok just some random things and corrections:

1. Isobel did not seem to have died a natural cause - her dog (you can find his undead form in Ketheric chambers) died with her and he said he tried to protect her. So it looks like it was murder. Isobel doesn't remember, everything was black she said. There is speculation that this might be even Shars doing (seeing that Kethering and family are/ were Selunites.

2. Not sure about the Gauntlet but the forge that is also part of the Sharran temple is very old and predating Moonrise towers. So I think the massive temple existed already underground. So either Ketheric either just build an access from the Mausoleum to the temple and/or additionally build the (or part) of the gauntlet.

3. The mindflayer in the opening doesn't look exactly like the Emperor - it has different eye colors, even the armor is (while similar with the big head piece) a little different. I don't expect them to change the trailer which is quite old but they could have changed the Emperors appearance in the game surely more easily. So no idea why they wouldn't except for the reason that he isn't the one on the ship. Especially since our character or companions never comment on him being the one. There is also two different versions of comments from the Narrator upon finding the mindflayer in act1 (in goblin camp). One saying that this is the one torturing you and one saying this mindflayer is of slighter build.... (there is a whole discussion on reddit about it too). It makes sense that the mindflayer that tadpoled us on the ship would be the Emperor, given that he looks similar (but not the same), was at the time on the ship, was meant to be the pilot of the ship (and we see him piloting), looks upon 3 dead other mindflayers on the ship while casually (not alarmed but I mean he is a mindflayer, who knows what he is thinking) floating past them.... but, it isn't 100% sure and again, still some plot holes. He might have killed the mindflayers because they recognized that he is no longer part of the hive mind and under the brains control (there is a slate on the ship talking about one that is different, maybe that means him) or he thought it would help his plan otherwise.

4. The Emperor says that he was free directly when he found the prism (not after some time). He then followed it inside and found Orpheus und learned how to control him and planned his freedom. But we don't know exactly when these things happened. On the ship is Shadowheart with the artefact and so back on the ship he was already free. Meaning he was free when he tadpoled us (if that was him). It is also interesting that the artefact is in Shadowhearts bag and she knows it is there. While the Emperor says he stole it from Vlaakith (as anyone played as Shadowheart and talked with the Emperor? Maybe there is different dialog there) Shadowheart checks her bag and finds the artefact where she remember it was stored last. It isn't clear if she stole if from Vlaakith or the Emperor but she remembers getting the artefact. As prized artefact that he was tasked to steal a mind washed/controlled Emperor wouldn't just place it back into Shadowhearts bag. It would be safely stored somewhere, maybe on his person. But he put it back for her (at least before entering it) to immediately find it and keep it with her. Because it was important to her he could trust she would keep it. So Shadowheart was important for his plan. He might have had tadpoled others that he thought were capable of fighting and therefore helping him. All of our companions aren't just commoners, we have all useful talents. It looks like he did these preparations (tadpoles possible allies, stores artefact in pod for Shadowheart to find (but then he should have done something to help her escape) and kills mindflayers that are suspicious of him) and when the Gith arrived he goes into the prism and tries to figure out how to use Orpheus. Or he already helped us not becoming thralls or falling under the few remaining mindflayer control.

5. We learn later from the brain, that the brain released the Emperor - it wasn't just proximity to the prism. It was the brains plan to get free from the control of the chosen.

6. The first time the Emperor broke free was not by himself but he got help from his friend (dragon Ansur). Omeluum was different as it was "born" with arcane powers which allowed it to break free on its own

7. I don't think it is said how Viconia /shar people got knowledge about the prism. Maybe from Shar herself? But they see Ketheric as betrayer as he worshipped Shar before and then turned away to worship Myrkul, so this might be reason alone to intervene

Last edited by Cawyden; 17/09/23 07:03 AM.
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One thing is certain: the plot is overly complicated and convoluted if not downright ridiculous.

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So I took a look into Gortash's vault (High Security Vault n6 if anyone is curious), and dug into other things you outlined, and it does rearrange / explain some things.

The mind flayer colony beneath Moonrise was simply a dormant remnant of an age long past - however, it is incredibly lucky that not a soul discovered it during the initial construction of Moonrise and it's surroundings, and incredibly silly that Emperor stumbled into it, freed himself and didn't tell a single soul for possibly hundreds of years that the mere existence of the colony might be a possible danger. If this was revealed to any Githyanki loyal to Vlaakith, this would be reason alone to declare a full scale war on a Plane that conceals Ghaik activity.

At the very least Bhaal was active again way before 1482, as the Durge was handcrafted by Him and Him alone, and Durge himself spent many, MANY years in worship of Bhaal before he met with Gortash. Just how many years is very foggy, as you get to customize everything about Durge in game, including signs of aging, but we can very easily assume at the very least 20 years, thanks to an interaction that occurs when a Heal spell is used on Durge, where a sudden memory of the Durge's childhood of playing games emerges. In this memory, it is hinted at that Durge at this time could have already been a murderer, but was yet to find their way to the Temple of Bhaal. The lowest age you can go in customizing is making your guy look somewhat like they're in their very late teens / super early 20s, however, the pre-made origin looks very mature, which is why my assumption is 20 years at the very least. When exactly Bane and Myrkul become active again, I don't know, but probably at least some years before 1482. The Temple of Bhaal was also quite active, as Orin was born and raised in there - how old she is, I have no clue of, but likely around the same age as Durge.

It seems that I got it completely wrong that it was Bane's task to Gortash to fire up the Absolute. Bane's (and the rest of the Dead Three) motivations, as you outlined, are revenge against fate and the power to control it, however it seems there was no clear way to achieve that until information about suspended ceremorphosis reached Gortash. Likely, the original idea was to start piling up Netherese artifacts to start building up a massive stockpile of weapons to use. According to the book "To Take Control" in the vault, it is said that Gortash (together with Durge) found a portfolio labelled "Accelerated Grand Design" - the very same book you can find in Gortash's chambers - which outlined the concept behind suspended ceremorphosis using an enhanced elder brain, and that this revelation sparked the idea of the Absolute plot. Meaning that Gortash wanted / needed the Crown for whatever purpose that served Bane, which then led luckily into the creation of the Absolute scheme. Why that book was there remains a mystery to me, and why Mephistopheles didn't take advantage of it is also something that I couldn't find out.

It is after this point that Gortash discovers the Emperor's true identity, likely now trying to find an elder brain to put the crown on leading him on this trail. This is confirmed by another document in the vault called "Shield Steward Interrogation Log Scroll or letter". This log outlines that Duke Stelmane was "not herself" and that she was eating the brain of an executed prisoner, and that the person being interrogated was caught snooping around by something blue and floating, "but then it was just Stelmane, smiling". Then they don't remember anything afterwards. This seems like a giant plot hole, as the Emperor mentioned Stelmane as an ally, not as an Illithid, and the genders are very clearly distinguished - Stelmane is a female, Emperor is a male, and an Illithid Stelmane would have been dubbed the "Empress". Either that, or the Emperor was masquerading as Stelmane, but this is never mentioned by anyone, so it remains ambigious at best.

Nevertheless, Gortash achieves his goal - through the Emperor, he discovers the mind flayer colony beneath Moonrise, then they get in contact with Balthazar to ressurect Ketheric, an insanely valuable asset, becomes Myrkul's Chosen in exchange for ressurecting Isobel, then Gortash reveals the Emperor for who he is, drags him to Moonrise and has Durge put the Crown on the local brain, and the Chosen of the Dead Three dominate the brain using the Netherstones, and so begins the 10 years of setting up the Absolute.

Ketheric also becomes invincible at some point during this entire plot - remember that Isobel confesses at the end of Act2 that Ketheric in 1482 claimed Dame Aylin was dead straight after Isobel was ressurected, and that Dame Aylin, when first approached by Durge in Act2 in 1492, says that she's been there for more than a hundred years, so Ketheric was definitely sealed in the Mausoleum when he was defeated as a Sharran General, which makes ressurecting him pointless, as he's very much alive - rather, this should be understood as Ketheric being released with a Myrkulite Necromancer at the helm. But at the same time, who gave Ketheric the power to imprison Dame and make himself invincible? It couldn't have been Myrkul through Balthazar, so it must have been Shar or some unknown third party. But if it was Shar, wouldn't she cut off the invincibility after Ketheric turned to Myrkul? Wouldn't Dame be insanely skeptical of a now Sharran Ketheric luring her to some unknown place? It just seems all extremely convenient. At the same time however, Dame also mentions Balthazar as being a responsible figure in her capture, which only serves to muddy the waters even more.

Sidenote: I can't be arsed to refer to the Emperor as Balduran - that might be who he is, but given that he forgets to ever mention it or use his previous identity in some manner, it just simply has no relevence to the plot. They could have made it so that the Dream Visitor IS Balduran, somebody who would be known even to a custom Tav, and especially all the Origins.

Ten years passes, Durge is dethroned by Orin, and here, the final book in Gortash's vault comes into play. In "The Astral Prism Heist" Gortash writes the following:
"... I had (a dream) about the githyanki threat to our Accelerated Grand Design, my research led me to(...) old archives left behind in Moonrise Towers(...). These records(...) mentioned a relic or artefact called the Astral Prism. (...) This artefact was reputed to be able to project a field that disrupted illithid psionics. Such an artefact would clearly be an existential threat to both our Absolute ambitions and the Grand Design. All three of the ancient sources agreed that the Astral Prism was in the hands of the girhyanki lich-queen Vlaakith. Thus was born the plan to send a tadpoled strike team in a regrown nautiloid piloted by the Emperor to steal the Astral Prism from Vlaakith."
How the Sharrans caught wind of this plan is still unclear, and why they would have needed the artifact even more so, but this book does confirm that the Brain was acting in it's own interest now that Durge disappeared. Nevertheless, the Sharrans learn of it - but first, I want to speak a little bit about the powers of the Prism first.

So, we know that the Prism houses Orpheus, the man who is capable of distrupting illithid psyonics at will. He is the one and only person who can do this. However, it is crucial to remember that this is something he does AT WILL. If we read ahead to the beginning of Act3, when the Emperor first reveals his true identity to the gang, the player can choose to turn on the Emperor straight away and kill him. Note that at this point, the gang was in the posession of the Prism for many days, if not weeks at this point, yet if they kill the Emperor, it's game over as the Brain immediately dominates the tadpoled gang. Therefore, an ambigious rule could be established that Orpheus himself radiates a passive aura of psyonic disruption, which was then sabotaged by the Emperor as he took control over Orpheus's power to use it with intent and precision. Again, this is something that is completely head-canon and never confirmed - it seems as if the plot chooses when the Prism protects someone, and when it doesn't. Likely, there is no emanating aura to begin with, and rather, Emperor is freed at the beginning of Act1 because the Brain let him go.

Either way, the timeline is still not entirely clear, as the first two events could have happened in either order.
1: Either the Sharrans snuck aboard the Nautiloid and were then apprehended by Thrall Emperor, then Emperor proceeded to steal the Astral Prism (somehow, you'd think the Githyanki wouldn't let any Ghaik steal from their Queen), or;
2: Thrall Emperor stole the Prism, went back to Faerun where the Sharrans snuck aboard and were then apprehended.
Unfortunately, the timeline of these events matter, as Shadowheart posesses the Prism once the game begins - Shadowheart would have had to posess the Prism and then get KO-d, put in a Pod and tadpoled to excuse the fact that Thrall Emperor didn't loot the Prism off of her (again, it's a bit ambigious if the Prism was planted on Shadowheart or not). Nevertheless, it follows as:
3: Trailer begins, Thrall Emperor tadpoles Lae'zel and Durge and floats past a Mind Flayer corpse that was likely killed by the boarding Sharrans. Why exactly there are Githyanki on board is not clear, likely they were victims of the heist but this is never confirmed as far as I know.
4: Drive-by over Baldur's Gate to farm up some more people to tadpole, but the Githyanki catch up with the Nautiloid, hellbent on regaining, or at the very least destroying the Prism.
5: Thrall Emperor attempts to make an escape through some planes, ending up in Avernus, but the Githyanki are still following him. Lae'zel stumbles out of the damaged pod and begins making her escape.
6: Trailer over, Durge gets out of his pod, and Emperor breaks free of the hivemind off-screen. Frankly, it is impossible that he was freed because of the Prism as other Mind Flayers would have begun breaking free as well - instead, it is much more likely that the Brain let the Emperor go as he stumbled onto the Prism again, making it seem as if it's the Prism that broke him free. To show his exceptional lack of critical thinking, he houses himself in the Prism but fails to free Shadowheart from her Pod, but at least he finds out about Orpheus in there and begins extending Orpheus's power outside the Prism, but also finds out that Orpheus's Honor Guard is locked in there, locking him in a two-fold struggle that he struggles to multitask at. Note that Emperor does have a significant task force of Intellect Devourers inside the Prism with him - he likely brought them along into the Prism from the Nautiloid, but the why of it is never confirmed.
7: Transponder nerves are connected by Durge (who might or might not have Shadowheart in his party), the ship returns to Faerun - conveniently far away from Moonrise Towers, and conveniently the remaining Githyanki no longer give pursuit. Durge and others fall off the ship, and are saved by the Emperor - why specifically Durge and other origins is not understood, it is never hinted that Emperor tried to save anyone else.
8: Also, Emperor is a bit of an arsehole. He waits until the origins start to exhibit symptoms of natural ceremorphosis before he intervenes as the Dream Guardian, but at the same time it is also acknowledged that these tadpoles are special in the fact that ceremorphosis seems to be paused, not just by Emperor, but Lae'zel as well.
I wish even this corrected timeline made sense. Before I edit the post with this info, I will patiently wait (for some time) for you to fact check this to see if I got everything right.

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1: Ultimately, Isobel would have died way before Ketheric anyways, all this does is accelerate the plot, which it really doesn't have to - but if the theory of the murder being Shar's doing is true, then at least that makes Shar's character stronger.

2: Grymforge was built by Ketheric, everything else was before him by a Sharran community.

3: The Mind Flayer in the cinematic IS the Emperor. This is confirmed by Gortash's personal journal (in the Counting House, High Security Vault N6), in a book titled "The Astral Prism Heist".

4-5-7: These I wrote a lot about in my reply above, so I'd prefer not to repeat myself.

6: I've actually haven't fully completed The Blade of Frontiers, as I've severely sequence broke Wyll in my many playthroughs and ultimately couldn't be arsed to complete him, lol. So this information was unknown to me - thank you for revealing it. Nevertheless, it produces a new problem: there is a new entity that can block out hivemind comms at will, so how exactly does one learn to do this at will? Same deal for Omeluum - not to mention how big of an asshole he is as well that he never revealed whatever colony he came from.

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I think, generally speaking, the Ketheric timeline is just broken. Due to the Troubles, Ketheric’s defeat, and the consequences of apostasy, Aylin simply could not have been imprisoned in the Shadowfell by a Myrkulite necromancer for 100 years. How could Myrkul instruct Balthazar if he was dead during that time? How could Ketheric lose if he was truly immortal, and why does Jaheira say he only returned as immortal a century later? Finally, if Aylin was imprisoned before Ketheric became immortal, why would Shar allow Ketheric to engage in such apostasy with Myrkul? How could Aylin be “tortured” for 100 years if the Soul Cage MUST post-date Ketheric’s defeat and the Shadowcurse?

Concerning Durge and Bhaal, Larian is screwing around with the pre-established timeline. Bhaal definitely died during the Troubles in the 1300s, having had many children before his death to ensure his return. One of these children was Gorion’s Ward. While Larian successfully retconned Abdul Adrian, it seems pretty immutable that Bhaal only returns after the death of Gorion’s Ward, which, canonically speaking, is 1482. It’s possible that Larian retconned the return of the Dead Three to 1462 instead of 1482, but this requires Gorion’s Ward to have died 20 years earlier. My overall point here is that Larian is making changes to the canon timeline, but it simply must be the case that the return of Bhaal only occurs after the death of Gorion’s Ward.

I think the reason no one before the Dead Three undertook the Accelerated Grand Design is that, as Jergal points out, the plan is stupid. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul are known for being crafty, cunning, and manipulative, but their plans often blow up in their faces because they are arrogant, shortsighted, and recklessly foolish. Myrkul and Bane were the ones who started the Troubles in the first place when they tried to steal the Tablets of Fate from Ao. Jergal notes that the other Gods (and devils!) definitely noticed the disappearance of souls and worship, and even after the Second Sundering, would find ways to intervene. Mystra, Shar, Selune, and Jergal should not be allowed to intervene by Second Sundering rules, yet clearly they find a way due to the dire nature of the situation. Jergal especially rarely intervenes in anything overtly for any reason, yet he springs into action immediately; screwing with souls and the nature of the universe and fate PISSED HIM OFF. Mephistopheles, evil though he may be, is still a lawful sort who would not take such revolutionary risks.

The Revenge Against Fate motive is more a theory of mine than something directly confirmed. The Dead Three don’t need to rule the world (except Bane), and already gave up a large part of their divine powers during the Sundering. I reason they want that power back. Given Bane and Myrkul tried to steal the Tablets of Fate from Ao already, and that Ao turned all gods mortal as punishment, I think it makes sense for the Three to want revenge and a path to greater divinity. Illithid and extraplanar capabilities combined with Karsite machinations are the closest approximation to something that can be assembled outside of Overgod control while still remaining in Realmspace.

The Artifact timeline is pretty broken still. It is not clear how it goes from Vlaakith to Emperor to Shadowheart to Emperor to Shadowheart. Clearly the following needs to happen:
1. Emperor steals it from Vlaakith.
2. Shadowheart steals it from Emperor.
3. Emperor steals it from Shadowheart and finds a way inside.
4. Shadowheart somehow gets it back while Emperor is inside and Shadowheart is imprisoned.

Alternatively, the Emperor is the Mindflayer with which the PC locks eyes before being taken out by a brick. Which makes the timeline:
1. Emperor steal Artifact from Vlaakith, is freed but hides this fact as the party can to other True Souls.
2. Emperor tadpoles everyone and plants Artifact on Shadowheart Whom he caught trying to steal it.
3. While the Nautiloid is crashing, Emperor goes into the Artifact and saves everyone.

Concerning Omeluum: I think it is established lore that some Mindflayers are born with arcane abilities from the Weave, and that most colonies kill them on sight. The reason is that a Mindflayer’s meddling with the Weave disrupts that specific Mindflayers domination by the Hive Mind. This is how we get Alhoons and Illithiliches.



Last edited by Zerubbabel; 17/09/23 02:40 PM.

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So regarding Kethric's timeline, it's still a bit weird but here's what I think is tripping you up:

I think that Kethric didn't start using Aylin for immortality until after his resurection. Before that, he captured her in the Shadowfell and kept her imprisoned just out of spite, using the dark justiciar initiation as a way to torture her. Balthazar and the soul cage came into the picture when he was returned to life. The fact he had Aylin as a resource for the soul cage just turned out to be a bit of good fortune, after a fashion.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So regarding Kethric's timeline, it's still a bit weird but here's what I think is tripping you up:

I think that Kethric didn't start using Aylin for immortality until after his resurection. Before that, he captured her in the Shadowfell and kept her imprisoned just out of spite, using the dark justiciar initiation as a way to torture her. Balthazar and the soul cage came into the picture when he was returned to life. The fact he had Aylin as a resource for the soul cage just turned out to be a bit of good fortune, after a fashion.
Okay this explains Aylin fully, but I'm still confused as to the timeline of Balthazar's involvement

Was it not Balthazar who betrayed Ketheric by striking a deal to summon Yurgir? Why would he do that 100 years ago if Myrkul was dead, only to turn to Myrkul about 80 years later when the opportunity arose? Aylin says she was trapped by Ketheric and Balthazar, but Balthazar is not a Sharran. Does she mean that Ketheric trapped her first in the Shadowfell, and Balthazar later with the Soul Cage? What was Balthazar's pre-Myrkul objective?



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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx

1: Ultimately, Isobel would have died way before Ketheric anyways, all this does is accelerate the plot, which it really doesn't have to - but if the theory of the murder being Shar's doing is true, then at least that makes Shar's character stronger.

2: Grymforge was built by Ketheric, everything else was before him by a Sharran community.

3: The Mind Flayer in the cinematic IS the Emperor. This is confirmed by Gortash's personal journal (in the Counting House, High Security Vault N6), in a book titled "The Astral Prism Heist".

4-5-7: These I wrote a lot about in my reply above, so I'd prefer not to repeat myself.

6: I've actually haven't fully completed The Blade of Frontiers, as I've severely sequence broke Wyll in my many playthroughs and ultimately couldn't be arsed to complete him, lol. So this information was unknown to me - thank you for revealing it. Nevertheless, it produces a new problem: there is a new entity that can block out hivemind comms at will, so how exactly does one learn to do this at will? Same deal for Omeluum - not to mention how big of an asshole he is as well that he never revealed whatever colony he came from.


1. True, she would have died before him but this was before her natural time to die and additionally to that, I suppose that normal resurrection failed. He surely was wealthy and influential enough to get a scroll of resurrection or a high ranking cleric to help with this but he wasn't able to resurrect Isobel or he would have. Only Myrkul could do that (could Shar prevent normal resurrection but not by Myrkul?). Might explain why he was so mad at all the gods - Selune didn't help, Shar was meant to take his mourning away but it seems that didn't work too well as he still longed to get Isobel resurrected.

2. Don't you mean the gauntlet? I don't think Ketheric build the grymforge or even knew about it. This should be ancient. The gauntlet could be newer, at least there was an entry from the Thorm Mausoleum to it and it lead the way to the Shadowfell and Nightsong, which was used for Sharrans to become Dark Justiciars by killing her

3. That is the thing - we don't know for 100%. We know the Emperor was on the ship (among other mindflayers, intellect devourers and a tadpoled strike team) but the one in the cinematic does NOT look 100% the same what you noticed too. And we don't have any reaction from Tav/companions/Emperor that he is the one who tadpoled them, which is very strange. Why didn't make Larian make the Emperor model look the same and add at least one dialog line about him being the one that tadpoled Tav/companions? So - yes it is very likely that he is the one but it isn't so clear as you wrote it.

Sorry, but for 4-5 you weren't certain but the brain says it was his action to free the Emperor so we know this for sure and don't need to assume things. And he says he broke free the moment he found the astral prism and not sometime later. Meaning he very likely was already free at the time of the cinematic. Maybe already in the prism, if he wasn't the mindflayer in the cinematic.

We also don't know for certain who killed the other mindflayers - Sharrans or the Emperor.

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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel

Was it not Balthazar who betrayed Ketheric by striking a deal to summon

No that wasn't Balthazar. There was the head of the Guild (sorry, forgot the name) in the town that striked a deal with Raphael to get the Sharrans killed. And Raphael sent Yugir. But he also betrayed Yugir because there is one Sharran/Dark Justiciar in the gauntlet that escaped him because he himself stroke a deal with Raphael and turned in all these rats. So Yugir could not kill him (the last Sharran) and therefore was trapped in the gauntlet.

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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So regarding Kethric's timeline, it's still a bit weird but here's what I think is tripping you up:

I think that Kethric didn't start using Aylin for immortality until after his resurection. Before that, he captured her in the Shadowfell and kept her imprisoned just out of spite, using the dark justiciar initiation as a way to torture her. Balthazar and the soul cage came into the picture when he was returned to life. The fact he had Aylin as a resource for the soul cage just turned out to be a bit of good fortune, after a fashion.
Okay this explains Aylin fully, but I'm still confused as to the timeline of Balthazar's involvement

Was it not Balthazar who betrayed Ketheric by striking a deal to summon Yurgir? Why would he do that 100 years ago if Myrkul was dead, only to turn to Myrkul about 80 years later when the opportunity arose? Aylin says she was trapped by Ketheric and Balthazar, but Balthazar is not a Sharran. Does she mean that Ketheric trapped her first in the Shadowfell, and Balthazar later with the Soul Cage? What was Balthazar's pre-Myrkul objective?


Originally Posted by Cawyden
No that wasn't Balthazar. There was the head of the Guild (sorry, forgot the name) in the town that striked a deal with Raphael to get the Sharrans killed. And Raphael sent Yugir. But he also betrayed Yugir because there is one Sharran/Dark Justiciar in the gauntlet that escaped him because he himself stroke a deal with Raphael and turned in all these rats. So Yugir could not kill him (the last Sharran) and therefore was trapped in the gauntlet.

This still doesn't account for Balthazar trying to "recover the relic" when you get there in Act2.
The relic is very much safe and intact, with 3 of the Orbs required being in the Gauntlet, and 1 with Yurgir. Isn't it actually better for Ketheric to have those Orbs scattered all around the place so that no one can reach Aylin? Yurgir could have had his Orb for 100 years at this point. And now that I think about it, it also doesn't make too much sense to leave the Spear of Night lying around, because if an actual Sharran was to somehow successfully navigate through the Gauntlet and Yurgir and get to the Shadowfell, they'd kill Aylin, which means Ketheric loses his source of invulnerability forever - and this is something that happens, by the way. Aylin in every scenario is more beneficial alive for Ketheric, and even if she's spared and freed, she gets recaptured about 3 cutscenes later and placed in a temporary soul cage, which I guess Ketheric knew how to create? Balthazar never needed to reach Aylin because he has 10 years ago at that point - so with the clarifications by Gray Ghost, the timeline would look something like this:

-Ketheric traps Aylin in the Shadowfell but is not invincible yet, and then is promptly betrayed.
-Many years later in 1482, Ketheric is ressurected by the Myrkulite Necromancer Balthazar and tries to convince Ketheric to become the Chosen of Myrkul and to take part in the Absolute plot.
-Ketheric accepts on the only condition that his daughter is brought back as well. Isobel is ressurected, runs away, and he becomes the Chosen.
-Then they start putting in work to make the Absolute plot happen.
-At some point, Balthazar convinces Ketheric to create a Soul Cage around Aylin - they would have to physically go to Aylin and put her in the Cage.
-They collect the Four Orbs - whether they would have to go through the Gauntlet or if they would have to fight Yurgir is unknown. Shar would not open the door at will, as Ketheric has long forsaken Shar at this point.
-Now, Ketheric would want to seal away every bit of access to the Shadowfell and account for the smallest of disturbances (remember, he is a smart General person).
-Three Orbs are put back in the Gauntlet, and one ends up with Yurgir (somehow).
-The Spear of Night is never removed from it's resting place despite being the only weapon in existence that could kill Aylin, which would permanently remove Ketheric's source of invulnerability.
-In the event of Aylin breaking free and severing the invulnerability, baiting her to Moonrise Towers is the only way to have her reliably recaptured with some tentacle shenanigans.
-Ketheric can, at will, easily create another Soul Cage around Aylin, and does so in the final bossfight in Act2.
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter when the Soul Cage is actually deployed, the story still remains broken frown

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The relic isn't safe in the Shadowfell, neither Balthazar nor Thorm are Sharran anymore, they're probably afraid Shar will decide what to do with the Nightsong that doesn't aid her rivals.

Do we know that Ketheric was resurrected? I thought that he has just been stewing in moonrise since the curse. On that point...the curse is Sharran in origin, was it put on Thorm after he renounced her? There used to be a book in the EA where Thorm was described as getting too big for his breeches, which was implied to lead to his downfall. I'm pretty sure Balthazar is referenced from before the cursed times, but it does make more sense if he's only brought on as part of the Crown gambit, explaining why Thorm now follows Myrkul.

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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel

The Artifact timeline is pretty broken still. It is not clear how it goes from Vlaakith to Emperor to Shadowheart to Emperor to Shadowheart. Clearly the following needs to happen:
1. Emperor steals it from Vlaakith.
2. Shadowheart steals it from Emperor.
3. Emperor steals it from Shadowheart and finds a way inside.
4. Shadowheart somehow gets it back while Emperor is inside and Shadowheart is imprisoned.

Alternatively, the Emperor is the Mindflayer with which the PC locks eyes before being taken out by a brick. Which makes the timeline:
1. Emperor steal Artifact from Vlaakith, is freed but hides this fact as the party can to other True Souls.
2. Emperor tadpoles everyone and plants Artifact on Shadowheart Whom he caught trying to steal it.
3. While the Nautiloid is crashing, Emperor goes into the Artifact and saves everyone.

Originally Posted by Cawyden

3. That is the thing - we don't know for 100%. We know the Emperor was on the ship (among other mindflayers, intellect devourers and a tadpoled strike team) but the one in the cinematic does NOT look 100% the same what you noticed too. And we don't have any reaction from Tav/companions/Emperor that he is the one who tadpoled them, which is very strange. Why didn't make Larian make the Emperor model look the same and add at least one dialog line about him being the one that tadpoled Tav/companions? So - yes it is very likely that he is the one but it isn't so clear as you wrote it.

Sorry, but for 4-5 you weren't certain but the brain says it was his action to free the Emperor so we know this for sure and don't need to assume things. And he says he broke free the moment he found the astral prism and not sometime later. Meaning he very likely was already free at the time of the cinematic. Maybe already in the prism, if he wasn't the mindflayer in the cinematic.

So, I fired up a new game to check out tentacle bro you share eye contact with before getting yeeted off the ship.

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Cawyden is correct in that the eyes of Emperor are purple, while the one in the cinematic, and this fella over here, are orange. And based on the fact that the Mind Flayer on this screenshot also has wildly different clothing compared to Emperor, I doubt Emperor had dressing in his priorities at that time, even with the inconsistency of the plot.

Honestly though? I am still willing to accept that the Mind Flayer in the cinematic IS Emperor, mainly based on the fact that Larian forgot about the fact that Emperor is quite literally Balduran, and so has Emperor by proxy - but of course, the facts don't suggest so. Therefore, we can assume that Zerubbabel's first timeline is what is correct.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
The relic isn't safe in the Shadowfell, neither Balthazar nor Thorm are Sharran anymore, they're probably afraid Shar will decide what to do with the Nightsong that doesn't aid her rivals.

Do we know that Ketheric was resurrected? I thought that he has just been stewing in moonrise since the curse. On that point...the curse is Sharran in origin, was it put on Thorm after he renounced her? There used to be a book in the EA where Thorm was described as getting too big for his breeches, which was implied to lead to his downfall. I'm pretty sure Balthazar is referenced from before the cursed times, but it does make more sense if he's only brought on as part of the Crown gambit, explaining why Thorm now follows Myrkul.

Well, he had to be ressurected.
Balthazar is the one who brings along the Soul Cage with him in 1482, therefore Ketheric must have died those many years ago as he couldn't have been invincible just because Aylin was trapped in the Shadowfell. And no, there is no trace of the Shadow Curse on Ketheric, and is never shown in the game or other books and notes to have ever been affected by it or gotten close to it without the proper protection. Balthazar does appear in the original downfall, but he couldn't have been following Myrkul then given Myrkul was dead at the time? We would have had to be Sharran.

As for any possible Shar intervention, She couldn't care less if Aylin is used as a source of invulnerability. If anything, it is a giant win for Her to have Aylin imprisoned and wait for a faithful Sharran to find the Spear of Night and kill Aylin for good - which is something that happens with Shadowheart.

On another note: I will update the OP with all the new info we all put together just so that future readers can be on the same page as well.

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Well Shadowheart’s storyline might disagree with that assessment

Where is 1482 referenced? How was Aylin trapped before then?
Or is the soul cage just the immortality part if it

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I reference 1482 as
that was the year when Ketheric was ressurected. In truth, the Soul Cage could have been employed any time between 1482 and 1492, but I think it is safe to assume 1482. The game canonically takes place in 1492, and when you visit Aylin, she remarks that it has been a century since she's been stuck in there, therefore we can conclude that she was imprisoned by Ketheric at latest in 1392 - sometime after Isobel's death. It wouldn't be until at least 90 years that the Soul Cage is employed.

Also, how does Shadowheart's storylien disagree with my assessment?

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1482 is the also the year Abdel Adrian, the ex-canon BG1+2 protagonist, died, marking the resurrection of Bhaal and thus the earliest date for the Dead Three to be active as a unit.


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Unfortunately, that one will simply remain a plot hole, as there is clear evidence that Bhaal surfaced way before 1482, as proven by Durge's existence. They could retcon it if they wish (Jergal shenanigans in the background maybe? idk lol), but a rewrite would be an infinitely better approach.

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Unfortunately, that one will simply remain a plot hole, as there is clear evidence that Bhaal surfaced way before 1482, as proven by Durge's existence. They could retcon it if they wish (Jergal shenanigans in the background maybe? idk lol), but a rewrite would be an infinitely better approach.
Eh, I can make my peace with the new canon having Bhaal resurrected 20 years before the old canon says so. It's not a big deal. What is a big deal is that the Dead Three should only become active as a unit after the resurrection of each of its constituent parts. Bhaal was slain in 1358, so it's fine if Gorion's Ward died in 1458, 100 years after Bhaal's death.

Jergal shenanigans are always happening apparently, even though there's little documentation. That dude occupies a weird place in the divine hierarchy and possesses knowledge and abilities well beyond those of the Greater Gods.


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I mean, fair enough about accepting new canon, but I don't want Jergal to become the Star Wars equivalent of the Force. I don't want to look at a plot hole or inconsistency and be like "must have been Jergal!" - it fundamentally ruins stakes in any story.

I've also edited the OP to include all the info that everyone who contributed so far brought together.

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
I mean, fair enough about accepting new canon, but I don't want Jergal to become the Star Wars equivalent of the Force. I don't want to look at a plot hole or inconsistency and be like "must have been Jergal!" - it fundamentally ruins stakes in any story.

I've also edited the OP to include all the info that everyone who contributed so far brought together.
I see where you're coming from. It all depends on how Larian (and WOTC) intend to handle the Lord of the End of Everything moving forward. My forum post about him compiles some evidence that even though he is certainly helpful, and displays some level of compassion at times, he is not a good guy and is very much the mastermind to end all masterminds.


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So you're saying the soul cage was crafted in 1482 because that's when the dead three returned, but do we have anything in the game that corroborates that assumption.

As for the influence of dead gods...what is dead may never die, and with strange retcons...I'm pretty sure despite being dead (Bhaal was dead in the first two games) Bhaalists and the followers of other dead gods, have had influence and power throughout the timeline.

I don't think it's beyond the pale for Balthazar to have come in while Thorm was still Sharran, I don't think the followers of evil gods are barred from scheming with each other, and since we know that it was Thorm who captured Aylin, we know that she has been part of the Justiciar rite for what appears to be a long while

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Originally Posted by Sozz
So you're saying the soul cage was crafted in 1482 because that's when the dead three returned, but do we have anything in the game that corroborates that assumption.

As for the influence of dead gods...what is dead may never die, and with strange retcons...I'm pretty sure despite being dead (Bhaal was dead in the first two games) Bhaalists and the followers of other dead gods, have had influence and power throughout the timeline.

I don't think it's beyond the pale for Balthazar to have come in while Thorm was still Sharran, I don't think the followers of evil gods are barred from scheming with each other, and since we know that it was Thorm who captured Aylin, we know that she has been part of the Justiciar rite for what appears to be a long while


While it is completely normal for evil gods to scheme with each other, Shar (or Shar's Cult) has been actively working against the plan of the Absolute by sending a covert strike team to steal the Astral Prism from the Absolutists who stole it from Vlaakith. Also, due to the nature of the Absolute, the Dead Three have mutually exclusive interests with all other gods. As Jergal notes, Mindflayers do not have souls and mind-controlled worship is not legitimate, so the Absolute was actively draining power from every other God. We see micro-examples of the loss of worship in the little notes Absolute followers leave blaspheming their former Gods like Lathander.

The game maintains that Ketheric was not always invincible, as evidenced by dialogue with Jaheira concerning their first fight. This means the Soul Cage was not active in 1392 and was only built after that date. Notes seem to indicate that Balthazar was probably always a devotee of Myrkul, who was still dead between 1392 and 1458-1482 (variable). You make a good point that people worship dead gods all the time. What is likely the case is that Balthazar was a two-bit necromancer working with Ketheric, publicly proclaiming a Sharran faith while privately worshipping the dead god Myrkul. Ketheric, Balthazar, and their special devotees are sealed in the Thorm Mausoleum. Aylin is continuously used as a ritual torture device for the initiation of Dark Justiciars. Myrkul then comes to life. He is approached by Bane and Bhaal who have a plan to take enormous power and get revenge on the Gods. Myrkul finds a sincere devotee in Balthazar and uses him to get to Ketheric. Myrkul offers Ketheric the resurrection of his daughter and true invulnerability in exchange for his servitude. The ritual materials and Isobel's resurrection, along with Balthazar's notes on the Soul Cage in his private study, are recent. It doesn't have to be 1482, but it makes most sense for it to post-date the activity of Durge and the Dead Three, which could be anywhere between 1462 and 1482.

A general rule of thumb in the whole timeline is that the Soul Cage likely post-dates the death of Gorion's Ward (circa 1462-1482) or the Second Sundering (circa 1482). Myrkul wasn't fully dead, being a half-dead rotting god in the Astral Plane for many decades.



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Honest question, why are you trying to include lore from other media (books, even other games) into BG3s timeline?

It's a rule known to all D&D players: Every DM creates their own world. They might use a known setting, they might use characters or other elements from a setting, but at the end of the day they decide how the multiverse works, what Gods are / are allowed to do / how they work. How magic works (if it even exists) and the timeline are 100% up to the creator.

That said, there are definitely things to discuss about BG3s timeline in particular, but anything from any other sources (including BG1 and 2) should be ignored imo. They included elements from BG1 and 2 but in LARIANS world they can act however Larian decides and whenever Larian decides. Bhaal has become active when Larian says so, etc.

In short, the only lore that matters for BG3 is BG3 lore. Just like you don't go on about how Elminster SHOULD BE according to x source when sitting at a DMs table.

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Originally Posted by Beechams
One thing is certain: the plot is overly complicated and convoluted if not downright ridiculous.

It's an excellent story with plenty of smart twists and turns, but I agree that it is overly complex. That complexity leads to a ton of inconsistencies.

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Originally Posted by Raz415
Honest question, why are you trying to include lore from other media (books, even other games) into BG3s timeline?

It's a rule known to all D&D players: Every DM creates their own world. They might use a known setting, they might use characters or other elements from a setting, but at the end of the day they decide how the multiverse works, what Gods are / are allowed to do / how they work. How magic works (if it even exists) and the timeline are 100% up to the creator.

That said, there are definitely things to discuss about BG3s timeline in particular, but anything from any other sources (including BG1 and 2) should be ignored imo. They included elements from BG1 and 2 but in LARIANS world they can act however Larian decides and whenever Larian decides. Bhaal has become active when Larian says so, etc.

In short, the only lore that matters for BG3 is BG3 lore. Just like you don't go on about how Elminster SHOULD BE according to x source when sitting at a DMs table.

The thing is, this isn't just a random game at a table. This is an officially licensed game that unless I'm mistaken, is actually now Canon to the timeline of the forgotten Realms. They are adding to the timeline that will be considered Canon going forward, so expecting it to fit with Canon already established is entirely reasonable. Even if that weren't the case, how can you suggest anything from the precious two games should be ignored? This is a direct, numbered sequel to those games, so while reveals and retcons are certainly acceptable, saying they should or can be ignored is not how sequels work. That would be like if the second Indianna Jones movie started and he was a British museum director and not an American teacher.

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After reflecting on the detailed analysis, I must admit that Baldur’s Gate III seems riddled with inconsistencies, especially concerning the Dead Three's timeline and the motivations of key figures like the Emperor and Elder Brain. My initial playthrough had me engrossed, but these revelations make the plot feel surprisingly incoherent. It's disheartening that, despite the rich lore of Baldur’s Gate, these narrative gaps exist. Hopefully, future updates or expansions will clarify some of these issues.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by Raz415
Honest question, why are you trying to include lore from other media (books, even other games) into BG3s timeline?

It's a rule known to all D&D players: Every DM creates their own world. They might use a known setting, they might use characters or other elements from a setting, but at the end of the day they decide how the multiverse works, what Gods are / are allowed to do / how they work. How magic works (if it even exists) and the timeline are 100% up to the creator.

That said, there are definitely things to discuss about BG3s timeline in particular, but anything from any other sources (including BG1 and 2) should be ignored imo. They included elements from BG1 and 2 but in LARIANS world they can act however Larian decides and whenever Larian decides. Bhaal has become active when Larian says so, etc.

In short, the only lore that matters for BG3 is BG3 lore. Just like you don't go on about how Elminster SHOULD BE according to x source when sitting at a DMs table.

The thing is, this isn't just a random game at a table. This is an officially licensed game that unless I'm mistaken, is actually now Canon to the timeline of the forgotten Realms. They are adding to the timeline that will be considered Canon going forward, so expecting it to fit with Canon already established is entirely reasonable. Even if that weren't the case, how can you suggest anything from the precious two games should be ignored? This is a direct, numbered sequel to those games, so while reveals and retcons are certainly acceptable, saying they should or can be ignored is not how sequels work. That would be like if the second Indianna Jones movie started and he was a British museum director and not an American teacher.

No, not necessarily. Just because it's in an official game doesn't mean it's an official part of the timeline. You might wish that they did a better job of elucidating how their story fits into the timeline as it is, just for it to make sense. The previous two games aren't canon. They aren't even canon *within the worldbuilding of BG3.* None of the "endings" of the previous 2 games are actually compatible with the world we see in BG3.

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Yeah I feel like there's a perfectly serviceable, even a pretty cool, story under the hood but it has all these needlessly convoluted details on top. Unshaven Occam ass plot.

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Originally Posted by WizardGnome
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by Raz415
Honest question, why are you trying to include lore from other media (books, even other games) into BG3s timeline?

It's a rule known to all D&D players: Every DM creates their own world. They might use a known setting, they might use characters or other elements from a setting, but at the end of the day they decide how the multiverse works, what Gods are / are allowed to do / how they work. How magic works (if it even exists) and the timeline are 100% up to the creator.

That said, there are definitely things to discuss about BG3s timeline in particular, but anything from any other sources (including BG1 and 2) should be ignored imo. They included elements from BG1 and 2 but in LARIANS world they can act however Larian decides and whenever Larian decides. Bhaal has become active when Larian says so, etc.

In short, the only lore that matters for BG3 is BG3 lore. Just like you don't go on about how Elminster SHOULD BE according to x source when sitting at a DMs table.

The thing is, this isn't just a random game at a table. This is an officially licensed game that unless I'm mistaken, is actually now Canon to the timeline of the forgotten Realms. They are adding to the timeline that will be considered Canon going forward, so expecting it to fit with Canon already established is entirely reasonable. Even if that weren't the case, how can you suggest anything from the precious two games should be ignored? This is a direct, numbered sequel to those games, so while reveals and retcons are certainly acceptable, saying they should or can be ignored is not how sequels work. That would be like if the second Indianna Jones movie started and he was a British museum director and not an American teacher.

No, not necessarily. Just because it's in an official game doesn't mean it's an official part of the timeline. You might wish that they did a better job of elucidating how their story fits into the timeline as it is, just for it to make sense. The previous two games aren't canon. They aren't even canon *within the worldbuilding of BG3.* None of the "endings" of the previous 2 games are actually compatible with the world we see in BG3.
BG2 was made Canon by WotC, even creating a canon protagonist, Abdel Adrian, and I think BG3 is, too.

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Honestly when I read this post.

I feel like they just ran out of time and told some coders to scatter books all over the place to fill in some gaps. Almost all of this stuff should be shown ON SCREEN. There are some fantastic flashback scenes for Shadowheart's backstory, why is this never utilized in the main plot? To further elaborate, in 90 hours I had like maybe 5 Dark Urge story scenes, that comes down to 18 hours between each progression. And in my playthrough it was the same for the main story tbh, I feel like I have barely seen Gortash, Orin, Ketheric or the Netherbrain on screen. They need to be more present in the story. The game just seems to keep sidetracking me into sidequests that never tie into the main story.

I think the ideal rewrite would be to be able to remove the tadpole by the end of act 1 (start of act 2) and by that time we should already have gotten content that sufficiently invests us into whatever the main plot is.

Many points brought up in the OP is stuff I have also said elsewhere so no need to comment on that. But let me just point out again that this game can STILL be the genre defining game it had the potential to be.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by WizardGnome
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by Raz415
Honest question, why are you trying to include lore from other media (books, even other games) into BG3s timeline?

It's a rule known to all D&D players: Every DM creates their own world. They might use a known setting, they might use characters or other elements from a setting, but at the end of the day they decide how the multiverse works, what Gods are / are allowed to do / how they work. How magic works (if it even exists) and the timeline are 100% up to the creator.

That said, there are definitely things to discuss about BG3s timeline in particular, but anything from any other sources (including BG1 and 2) should be ignored imo. They included elements from BG1 and 2 but in LARIANS world they can act however Larian decides and whenever Larian decides. Bhaal has become active when Larian says so, etc.

In short, the only lore that matters for BG3 is BG3 lore. Just like you don't go on about how Elminster SHOULD BE according to x source when sitting at a DMs table.

The thing is, this isn't just a random game at a table. This is an officially licensed game that unless I'm mistaken, is actually now Canon to the timeline of the forgotten Realms. They are adding to the timeline that will be considered Canon going forward, so expecting it to fit with Canon already established is entirely reasonable. Even if that weren't the case, how can you suggest anything from the precious two games should be ignored? This is a direct, numbered sequel to those games, so while reveals and retcons are certainly acceptable, saying they should or can be ignored is not how sequels work. That would be like if the second Indianna Jones movie started and he was a British museum director and not an American teacher.

No, not necessarily. Just because it's in an official game doesn't mean it's an official part of the timeline. You might wish that they did a better job of elucidating how their story fits into the timeline as it is, just for it to make sense. The previous two games aren't canon. They aren't even canon *within the worldbuilding of BG3.* None of the "endings" of the previous 2 games are actually compatible with the world we see in BG3.
BG2 was made Canon by WotC, even creating a canon protagonist, Abdel Adrian, and I think BG3 is, too.

There's a canon "Gorion's Ward", but it doesn't mean that what happened to Gorion's Ward in BG1 and BG2 is at all canon. In any of the endings of Throne of Bhaal, Bhaal is dead and gone forever. That's obviously not how things actually shake out.

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Originally Posted by Raz415
Honest question, why are you trying to include lore from other media (books, even other games) into BG3s timeline?

It's a rule known to all D&D players: Every DM creates their own world. They might use a known setting, they might use characters or other elements from a setting, but at the end of the day they decide how the multiverse works, what Gods are / are allowed to do / how they work. How magic works (if it even exists) and the timeline are 100% up to the creator.

That said, there are definitely things to discuss about BG3s timeline in particular, but anything from any other sources (including BG1 and 2) should be ignored imo. They included elements from BG1 and 2 but in LARIANS world they can act however Larian decides and whenever Larian decides. Bhaal has become active when Larian says so, etc.

In short, the only lore that matters for BG3 is BG3 lore. Just like you don't go on about how Elminster SHOULD BE according to x source when sitting at a DMs table.

Baldur's Gate isn't some "random" game, nor does ANY of the players get to be Dungeon Masters, ever. Players are, without exceptions, participants of the game and not the authors of it. Even if Baldur's Gate1, 2 and 3 exist in their own separate universe, away from anything and everything WOTC and Larian made before, Baldur's Gate still has it's own established universe, rules and plots that you can't break away from. You can't have on one end say "The Dead Three will be ressurected and unite again upon the death of the last Bhaalspawn (which is Gorion's Ward in 1482, canonically)" but then have Bhaal be active many decades before said event would occur. Here is the thing - ultimately, it doesn't change much. They could just have the entire plot delayed by 30 years and the plot would work just as well, but inconsistencies like this tend to build up over time and eventually degrade what could otherwise be a fantastic plot.

Imagine a timeline with what I just described:

1482-1512
- Gorion's Ward dies, the Dead Three are ressurected.
- The Three start rebuilding themselves, completely solo at first. Durge is created, Orin is born and the Temple of Bhaal is inhabited again.
- Balthazar, while not acting as Chosen of Myrkul, begins carrying out His most important tasks - one example being searching for a prime candidate to make Chosen.
- Bane is at a complete loss initially, until Gortash stumbles into Him.
- Contact between the Three are scarce, but slowly develops.
1512
-Gortash, now Chosen of Bane is tasked with retrieveing the Crown of Karsus.
-He meets the now Chosen of Bhaal, Durge, and the two develop their relationship.
-Later down the line, Balthazar finally finds the perfect candidate to be Chosen of Myrkul - Ketheric. Regardless if the Absolute plot was going to happen or not, but Ketheric's ascendance is a well timed convenience for the Dead Three.
-Everything else happens.
1522
-The events of Baldur's Gate 3 take place.

Nothing changes here, but now, there isn't a chronological disturbance of events that you have to retcon for in future installments. And this is just one issue of many, and as said, small issues - even if ultimately nitpicks - tend to add up and ends up ruining the immersion.

Let me ask you this: have you ever had a DM in any DnD game that you ever played who just completely ruined your immersion? They set up what is otherwise a brilliant thriller, only to make some absolutely insane blunders in the presentation of certain characters or such that ends up ruining the entire plot? It does not matter that that DnD universe is "temporary" and "custom" - your immersion was still broken, and the damage has been already dealt.

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Originally Posted by WizardGnome
There's a canon "Gorion's Ward", but it doesn't mean that what happened to Gorion's Ward in BG1 and BG2 is at all canon. In any of the endings of Throne of Bhaal, Bhaal is dead and gone forever. That's obviously not how things actually shake out.
Not only is there a canon protagonist from BG 1+2, the events of the games, including expansions, were also made canon. And where the game offered choices there is either a canon choice (Thief guild instead of vampires) or the choice is not recorded.

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Originally Posted by Elk Mooser
Yeah I feel like there's a perfectly serviceable, even a pretty cool, story under the hood but it has all these needlessly convoluted details on top. Unshaven Occam ass plot.

I disagree with the sentiment that it's "convoluted" or "needlessly complex" - I actually think that the story of BG3 is quite well balanced in the amount of different setups, risks and payoffs there are, but the consistency in which it was written is what is hurting the story. Say, if Emperor would actually embrace being Balduran - that wouldn't make anything more complicated, in fact, it'd make the story much easier to consume as Balduran is a character that many within the Baldur's Gate universe know about and can relate to. If anything, him not embracing Balduran actually makes it more complicated - you start asking questions such as "Why wouldn't he assume the form of Balduran as the Dream Visitor? Why wouldn't he alert Stelmane about the presence of a dormant Mind Flayer colony under Moonrise? Why is he so inept at building trust with and understanding the motivations the BG3 gang when he can read the minds of everyone involved?" That is what creates these "needlessly complex" plots, because a lot of the holes have to be filled by the consumer instead of the writer.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by WizardGnome
There's a canon "Gorion's Ward", but it doesn't mean that what happened to Gorion's Ward in BG1 and BG2 is at all canon. In any of the endings of Throne of Bhaal, Bhaal is dead and gone forever. That's obviously not how things actually shake out.
Not only is there a canon protagonist from BG 1+2, the events of the games, including expansions, were also made canon. And where the game offered choices there is either a canon choice (Thief guild instead of vampires) or the choice is not recorded.

Well, I very much doubt EVERYTHING from the games was made canon. Even if the big things were, the ending of ToB is simply incompatible with BG3. The endings of BG2: ToB are
1. You accept Bhaal's essence and become a good god
2. You accept Bhaal's essence and become an evil god
3. You reject Bhaal's essence and become mortal

Even if the canonical "Gorion's ward" chose the mortal option, it's still incompatible with BG3, because at the end of ToB there is no more of Bhaal's divine essence in you. You give it up to someone else (the final boss of ToB) whose soul is then destroyed, and the essence of Bhaal is then locked away "forever". Even if you want to argue that the Celestial who told you this was just wrong about the "forever" part, it still doesn't work. The character is still technically "bhaalspawn" by virtue of Bhaal being their parent after ToB, but there is just no more of the essence of Bhaal within them - nothing to be "unleashed" when Gorion's ward dies.

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I can forgive time inconsistencies but motivations have to be clear.

So... did I get it right: the whole plot was the master plan of the Netherbrain?

- Dead Three, frustrated with lack of power, decided to switch from pure godhood to netheresian magic using the Elder brain.
- Elder Brain calculated the outcome and pretended to be enslaved, allowing DT to create an army of mind flayers - his future thralls.
- While they are on it, ED shares information about the Astral Prism and the only being that can potentially destroy EB. So, DT began the search.
- Unhappy with DT actions, other gods became curious about the Prism as well, plus, Githyanki want it back.

Up to this point, the plot works for me. The rest demands heavy headcanoning.

- The Emperor finds the prism and enters. Why?

I can live with the idea, that Orpheus could be killed only inside the prism and EB had to motivate the Emperor to enter (even supplying some intellect devourers for help), but the rest becomes problematic. There are two options:

1. EB keeps control over the Emperor the whole time. Killing Orpheus proves to be difficult, so, the Emperor needs outside help and recruits the gang.
+ Explains the schizophrenic behaviour of the Emperor if you insist on freeing Orpheus (his return to EB and desire to destroy Githyanki).
- Does not explain why the Emperor wanted to kill EB (and he does if we side with him).

2. The Emperor is honestly free the moment he enters the prism, remembers himself and sets his own plan to kill EB. Something EB could not foresee.
+ Explains everything but the Emperor's return to EB.

Maybe the latter can be explained by the strike of a deep depression of the human part of the Emperor: everything is lost, no point in struggling, he might as well return to EB and forget himself again. Sort of a suicide.

Durge wins over Tav for the netherstones (it makes sense to keep the owner alive to keep the stone active). But Tav wins in reactivity (or, better say, does not suffer that much from the absence of it).

The option of mediating relationships between Orpheus and the Emperor is severely lacking, though, in any case. Hope, it will be added.

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Originally Posted by Surge90sf
I feel like they just ran out of time and told some coders to scatter books all over the place to fill in some gaps. Almost all of this stuff should be shown ON SCREEN. There are some fantastic flashback scenes for Shadowheart's backstory, why is this never utilized in the main plot?

Agree 100%. The main plot is less relatable/accessible/comprehensible than the origin stories. Not everyone knows dnd lore or has played bg1/2.


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Here is an interesting reflection on the canonization of Abdel Adrian, from the author who wrote that book...

(I kinda love this guy. Not for writing that infamous book, but for writing this... many years later)


Quote
Let’s go back a bit to the beginning.

BioWare was working on a computer RPG, under license from Wizards of the Coast, set in the Forgotten Realms world. The buzz started to get pretty positive really early and the idea was floated by someone I’ve since forgiven that we should publish a novelization of the game. Because I’m a total moron, I participated in a blind proposal process in hopes of being the person to write it. Because of reasons unknown, my proposal was picked and I was assigned to write the book. That was somewhere around Halloween and they needed the first draft by Christmas.

A “long” book wasn’t going to happen, so though I don’t remember what the assigned word count was, it was less than the average 90,000 for other Forgotten Realms novels. So I went in knowing it was going to be short and though I didn’t really hope it would be bad, I did start the process with that same sense of the freedom of low expectations.

First of all, this was a novelization, so the story was (more or less—it’s complicated, but for our purposes . . .) all spelled out for me. Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood, and everyone else who came after them had already built the world, and so all of the up-front work was done. I just had to write it up.

I also went in comfortable with the fact that all I needed to show up with around Christmas was a first draft. That draft would then be read and vetted not just by my editor at Wizards of the Coast but by someone at the game studio, and together they would make sure I was in line with the spirit and the letter of the game story, and so on.

So I did my best with what time and story material I had and went for done—not for good, not for long, just . . . done.

And I was done on time, and the book went to my editor and someone—I have no idea to this day who and still think it might have been no one—and after a few weeks I got notes back from my editor, and nothing from anyone involved in the game except some kind of vague, “It’s fine.”

I was pretty sure it wasn’t fine.

After all, at that point there wasn’t even a beta version of the game to play. I was working from a very early story document and that’s it.

But it was “fine,” and a production deadline loomed before us, and almost as if we planned it, the second the book went to press we got a pre-beta version of the game that crashed too early on to tell how off the mark I was, but gave me just enough negative feedback to know I was in trouble in Chapter 1 . . .

Then the book came out to a flurry of online hate, all directed at me, the worst writer of all time, who had clearly never bothered to even play the game and . . . My short bad book wasn’t revised into a longer better book. It stayed short and bad, and though it sold a crap ton of copies, at least by today’s standards, it remains most Forgotten Realms fans’ least favorite FR book, and something of an albatross around my neck.

Conscious of the fact that I may have just terrified you out of ever pursuing Dani Shapiro’s advice to start out writing a short bad book, I still think you ought to at least try it. Just, for Bhaal’s sake, make it better, if not longer, before it’s actually published!

—Philip Athans

https://fantasyhandbook.wordpress.com/2015/08/04/my-bad-short-bad-book/

Right then, duly stricken from the record hehe

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Re: Is canon important for BG3?

1. Information on previously existing locations, characters, and events that occur in BG3 are now considered canon enough to rewrite all related wiki pages. Until it is retconned, BG3 is quasi-gospel to the lore.

2. In spite of some confusing things here and there, the game does, for the most part, fit quite neatly into the established canon and history. The game itself draws from established canon and rarely violates it.

3. The greatest motivation of all: Establishing consistent lore is fun, whether it’s Warhammer, Elder Scrolls, or DND. It’s especially fun here because this isn’t some DM’s pocket universe, but an officially licensed product.

4. Just as not all of the original games were canon after 20 years, so too can we expect bits and pieces of BG3 not to stay canon. However, the general thrust of the adventure will remain.


—————

Also, for as much as people hate Abdel Adrian, it really does seem like Athans was set up to fail.


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So firstly, regarding the Philip Athans quote, damn, poor guy. He didn't so much write a bad book as he wrote a draft that really hould never have been presented to the public, and given he couldn't actually get access to the game, he really never had a chance.

Secondly I have another timeline question.

I was under the impression that the founding of Baldur's Gate was like, 100s of years in the past or something like that, and Balduran was a human. So I'm kind of confused by the fact that he apparently stumbled upon the mindflayers in Moonrise Tower. That implies that mindflayers were under there all throughout the time Kethric was doing his thing as a Sharran and as a selunite before that, and they were just never noticed.

There's nothing wrong with that sequence of events technically, but it just feels narratively... off. Like, the presence of the Hive there and the fact it had no impact on Kethric'swhole story as it was happening feels like a coincidence that should mean something more. That tower was the base of an evil army and before that the base of a very devout following of a good god, and was even visited by the emissary of said god. Those two ships passing in the night just feel... out of what somehow. It feels like the writers made Balduran's change happen at moonrise to connect events more, but the connection only strains credulity for no real reason. If it were up to me, I'd not have said where he was changed, he just became a mindflayer somewhere, it doesn't really matter where.

Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost

Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.
Speaking of that timeline

How is the Emperor even still alive? Mind Flayer are not immortal but live around 125 years, or 250 if they are an Ulitharid. But Balduran lived nearly 500 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.[/spoiler]
Speaking of that timeline

How is the Emperor even still alive? Mind Flayer are not immortal but live around 125 years, or 250 if they are an Ulitharid. But Balduran lived nearly 500 years ago.



AAAAAAAHHHH this bothers me more than it should. So maybe Balduran got tadpoles as an old man, so around 1100-1180. Mindflayer Balduran makes it to 1300s at the latest, not 1400s. Then again, this Elder Brain is weird and ancient.



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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I was under the impression that the founding of Baldur's Gate was like, 100s of years in the past or something like that, and Balduran was a human. So I'm kind of confused by the fact that he apparently stumbled upon the mindflayers in Moonrise Tower. That implies that mindflayers were under there all throughout the time Kethric was doing his thing as a Sharran and as a selunite before that, and they were just never noticed.

There's nothing wrong with that sequence of events technically, but it just feels narratively... off.

Luck is a HUGE element in this story. In no particular order, some of the luckiest ones are:

-Durge happening to be on the same Nautiloid that Thrall Emperor uses to steal the Astral Prism - remember that the Brain had nothing to do with placing Durge there, this was done by an uninfluenced Orin (remember: Durge becoming a pawn in the Design simply meant that the Brain simply looked upon it's disgraced master with disgust and would have used him as a lowly soldier or worker - at the very least there is nothing to suggest that the Brain somehow influenced Orin to place Durge in that Nautiloid)
-Emperor failing to tell everyone about the Mind Flayer colony once he was freed for the first time
-Ketheric develops Durge Amnesia and forgets he used to work together with him
-The Accelerated Grand Design documentation not being destroyed by Mephistopheles
-That dormant Mind Flayer colony just so happened to also house a dormant Elder Brain and at least one Nautiloid
-Emperor ending up with Durge and the rest of the origins could be either insanely lucky or (partially) intended by the Brain
-Durge somehow not dying to Orin's very much fatal blows
-Sharrans catching wind of the Astral Prism Heist is incredibly (un)lucky
-Emperor failing to appear as Balduran (aka himself) in Dream Visitor segments is incredibly unlucky

The thing is, extremely rare events happen ALL the time in real life. Just the other day, I was thinking how cool it'd be for one of my university classes to be cancelled. Lo and behold, as the class was coming up, we got a notification of cancellation as our professor suffered a road accident and he totaled his car (no one got hurt, by the way). This event allowed me to go out shopping with my mum, where we happened to run into some cans of Almdudler, something we haven't seen in a long, long time in our country, creating a satisfying payoff.

Here is the mechanical workings of luck: things seem lucky because we don't know all the mechanical elements of how that event occured. When you are watching something in the third person, you of course see that the teacher had an accident and that Almdudler cans were supplied just a few days back. However, the person in the story experiencing them has blindspots to these events, therefore appearing as lucky. It is also important to know that most of mankind's greatest stories begin with an incredibly lucky chain of events. Just the right people showing up just at the right time with just the right amount of knowledge and resources to begin an exciting journey.

However, even the third person will be frustrated by what they will experience as "luck" when the mechanical components of an event in the plot is not explained properly. Take
Balduran for example - we all know he is a heroic adventurer. So why wouldn't he tell ANYONE that there is a dormant colony that needs to be purged? It is just so incredibly lucky that he chose never to think, acknowledge and consider such an action, which in turn allowed for the Absolute plot to occur many years later. It is frustrating to say the least, because how will the third person keep their suspension of disbelief alive if anything could occur at any point? Maybe the Brain just decides that once the Dead Three are gone, it will be all nice n cozy and they're gonna have a tea time with Durge and giggle at the absurdity of those idiots. But that would be incredibly jarring, because there is NOTHING that would ever suggest that the Brain would become subservient to the Durge again.

Which is why, regardless if we're speaking of nitpicks or the largest of plot holes, I am an enthusiastic advocate for any and every game company to extend their QA to storytelling as well, and why I have written this timeline up. Also...

Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.[/spoiler]
Speaking of that timeline

How is the Emperor even still alive? Mind Flayer are not immortal but live around 125 years, or 250 if they are an Ulitharid. But Balduran lived nearly 500 years ago.



AAAAAAAHHHH this bothers me more than it should. So maybe Balduran got tadpoles as an old man, so around 1100-1180. Mindflayer Balduran makes it to 1300s at the latest, not 1400s. Then again, this Elder Brain is weird and ancient.


I guess I can edit this info in to OP. Ouch.

EDIT: I have also been made aware that Ketheric in the late 1300s and early 1400s used Aylin in the Shadowfell to create Dark Justiciars by having each and every one kill her (without the Spear of Night of course) - yet Aylin still claims that she hasn't been visited by anyone in a hundred years in Act2 (in 1492), including Balthazar with his Soul Cage. How does time work in the Shadowfell? Because if this question gets the right answer, that is the only way to actually be able to establish a proper chronological order of just exactly what on Earth happened over there. Now, I am currently not at my PC, so I can't hop in-game and check - I will do that once I'm around, but I'm just wondering if anyone can fact check this. Either the right answer to the question or Aylin completely lost her track of time, which is psychologically understandable, but we are also speaking of a demigod who never at any point showed any signs of psychological degragadion.

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Aylin could simply not count sharians (including Ketheric and Baltazar) for "anyone". She could mean "anyone sane" or "anyone decent".

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Luck is a HUGE element in this story. In no particular order, some of the luckiest ones are:

-Durge happening to be on the same Nautiloid that Thrall Emperor uses to steal the Astral Prism - remember that the Brain had nothing to do with placing Durge there, this was done by an uninfluenced Orin (remember: Durge becoming a pawn in the Design simply meant that the Brain simply looked upon it's disgraced master with disgust and would have used him as a lowly soldier or worker - at the very least there is nothing to suggest that the Brain somehow influenced Orin to place Durge in that Nautiloid)
-That dormant Mind Flayer colony just so happened to also house a dormant Elder Brain and at least one Nautiloid
-Emperor failing to appear as Balduran (aka himself) in Dream Visitor segments is incredibly unlucky

-> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers

-> There are acutally several Nautiloids in the Colony as when you arrive near the brain Tav says they just saw a fleet of Nautiloids leaving (I didn't see anything, was just a voice line from Tav). But all the Nautiloids in the end over Baldurs Gate have to come somehwere, so this would fit.

-> I think the Emperor not appearing as Balduran might simply be because he wanted to appear in a form that the origins/Tav finds trustworthy. So he appears in different forms for everyone. He could have appeared as Balduran but he isn't really attached to his old appearance anymore so he doesn't care because his real form is now being a mindflayer. And who knows if they would have believed him that he is Balduran as Balduran was likely thought to be lost/dead. Maybe this would even lead to being more sceptical of him.

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Also that’s assuming he even knows what he looks like. Mindflayers sometimes retain certain memories but given that his brain was completely eaten by a worm I have strong doubts about him even really being the same person. He was before being turned but now he’s really just a worm that had freedom

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Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers

There is another note in her husband's room that says he was jealous of Durge and recommended to Balthazar to ship him off, although from the note in Balthazar's room, it didn't seem like he needed any convincing.

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Originally Posted by Amirit
Aylin could simply not count sharians (including Ketheric and Baltazar) for "anyone". She could mean "anyone sane" or "anyone decent".

This explanation doesn't work, as when you first approach
Aylin in the Shadowfell, she says the following, and I quote:
"I have felt you coming. The first in a century. You, who have come to drive a dagger through my heart. You, who seek to claim the ultimate prize. Present your weapon, soldier. Plunge it into the Nightsong. I cannot stop you. But know this: I never forget a face."
Therefore, she does actually count Sharrans (and everyone else) as "anyone" because she accuses us of being Sharrans from the get-go - she thinks the player goes there to become a Dark Justiciar, which, given the fact that she has been killed hundreds and thousands of times by would-be Dark Justiciars, makes complete sense.

Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers

Where exactly is this document? I went back in my saves (as I found nothing on Google aside a fucktonne of guides as to how to get into Balthazar's room, something I've already done) and I couldn't find any trace of information - I found
Balthazar's personal notes 2 and 3 as I have before (sidenote: this also gave me the opportunity to re-read "Elder Brain Domination" again, where Ketheric hints that before the Crown was placed atop the Brain, the Bhaalists already had leadership struggles. However, this must not be related to Orin replacing Durge, as the replacement must have happened super late into the Absolute plot), but haven't found anything else that sheds any light on the period between Orin's betrayal and Durge waking up on the Nautiloid.

Nevertheless, my point still stands - it is INCREDIBLY fucking lucky that Durge ended up on that Nautiloid.

Edit: Now that I think about it - Balthazar prompts no reaction when he sees the Durge again in Act2. You'd think he'd have some sort of reaction given that they both worked together and apparently violated his body too.

Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> There are acutally several
Nautiloids in the Colony as when you arrive near the brain Tav says they just saw a fleet of Nautiloids leaving (I didn't see anything, was just a voice line from Tav). But all the Nautiloids in the end over Baldurs Gate have to come somehwere, so this would fit.

Again, that doesn't change the fact that it was incredibly lucky to have
a dormant Mind Flayer colony survive for more than ten thousand years since the fall of the Illithid Empire (despite major construction work taking place in the local area, not to mention that the Githyanki would have for sure gone over all the Planes with a fine-tooth comb), and have it house an Elder Brain and Nautiloids. Had they had no Nautiloids to begin with, they would have needed significantly more time to prepare the Absolute plot.

Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> I think the Emperor
not appearing as Balduran might simply be because he wanted to appear in a form that the origins/Tav finds trustworthy. So he appears in different forms for everyone. He could have appeared as Balduran but he isn't really attached to his old appearance anymore so he doesn't care because his real form is now being a mindflayer. And who knows if they would have believed him that he is Balduran as Balduran was likely thought to be lost/dead. Maybe this would even lead to being more sceptical of him.

This is pure speculation.
The Emperor in Act3 says that "I AM an adventurer, just like you, and that I wanted more, so I went to Moonrise". He NEVER once implies that he has gaps in his memories, nor do we as the third person get to look inside his head to piece together the puzzle. Therefore, the only correct interpretation is that he is simply choosing to discard his persona of Balduran, but the reasons as to why, and the reasons as to why he doesn't change his mind later on once he's in the Astral Prism or when talking with Stelmane is completely unknown.

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Mind flayers live up to about 125-135 years.
Where does this come from? Mind Flayers usually don't die of old age, I doubt they age at all. Mind Flyer can evolve further to become a part of the Elder Brain - the base part or some additional alongside others.
This is all from the BG3 lore, I don't know if some common DnD lore contradicts this.

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Originally Posted by Faust-RSI
Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Mind flayers live up to about 125-135 years.
Where does this come from? Mind Flayers usually don't die of old age, I doubt they age at all. Mind Flyer can evolve further to become a part of the Elder Brain - the base part or some additional alongside others.
This is all from the BG3 lore, I don't know if some common DnD lore contradicts this.


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Originally Posted by Faust-RSI
Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Mind flayers live up to about 125-135 years.
Where does this come from? Mind Flayers usually don't die of old age, I doubt they age at all. Mind Flyer can evolve further to become a part of the Elder Brain - the base part or some additional alongside others.
This is all from the BG3 lore, I don't know if some common DnD lore contradicts this.

It's common DnD lore. In DnD, becoming part of the elder brain is actually a Mind Flayer's 'death ritual', and the Elder brains actually hide the nature of what happens. It's sold to Mind Flayers as a sort of 'afterlife' where they become one with the elder brain, when in reality it's much more like the mind flayer's personality is discarded and destroyed and their thoughts and memories are consumed.

At least - this is what I remember from the last time I checked on the lore. Things might have been changed or retconned since then. Another issue going by the lore, if I remember right, is that gnomes are actually immune to ceremorphosis. Well, not immune, but it just kills the gnome rather than making a mind flayer. I forget the exact reasoning for this. (Maybe gnomes are just so small that people kept asking "But where does all the extra body mass come from when they transform?!" But then there should be the same issue with halflings.)

Though tbh, I think this is a pretty minor problem for BG3 compared to other plot problems. I am willing to acccept the official lore being fudged a bit.

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Here comes the frustrating part, Dungeons and Dragons monster/race lore is fairly liquid in nature. Usually things stay canon until mentioned otherwise, but the community as a whole kinda plays telephone based on half remembered readings from the Forgotten Realms wiki. With regards to Mind Flayer/Illithid aging, Volo's Guide to Monsters (2016) is a Fifth Edition book that mentions that Mind Flayers that are aging, infirm, or grievously injured are incorporated into an Elder Brain. However, it makes no mentions of how old a mind flayer has to be to die of old age. For that the most common citation points to the Monstrous Manual (1993) which is for Second Edition and under TSR rather than WotC. It says that Mind Flayers have a lifespan of 125 years. There might be some more information in some Third and Fourth edition, but ultimately the dilemma ends up being: Which source do we trust?

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Based on the wiki and Twi's post, the Mind Flayer thing is probably not a lifespan, but a life expectancy. Mind Flayers may not die of old age, but become more likely to die after hitting a certain age.


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Originally Posted by WizardGnome
In DnD, becoming part of the elder brain is actually a Mind Flayer's 'death ritual', and the Elder brains actually hide the nature of what happens. It's sold to Mind Flayers as a sort of 'afterlife' where they become one with the elder brain, when in reality it's much more like the mind flayer's personality is discarded and destroyed and their thoughts and memories are consumed.

This is exactly what I remember. And as you can see yourself, there is nothing about old age.

Originally Posted by twi
For that the most common citation points to the Monstrous Manual (1993) which is for Second Edition and under TSR rather than WotC. It says that Mind Flayers have a lifespan of 125 years.
Also, this^ The game is based on the 5th edition, so I doubt the relevancy of the 2d one, sorry.

Originally Posted by WizardGnome
Though tbh, I think this is a pretty minor problem for BG3 compared to other plot problems.

Agreed. I also agree to everything else OP stated, so I saw only this one point worth discussing smile

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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
Based on the wiki and Twi's post, the Mind Flayer thing is probably not a lifespan, but a life expectancy. Mind Flayers may not die of old age, but become more likely to die after hitting a certain age.

Mhm. I'm willing to accept this, (for which I'll make an edit in the OP as a strong explanation) although they REALLY should have explored Emperor's life (and Balduran's, but whatever...) a little bit more to get rid of doubts like this. Here's the thing with the whole ceremorphosis deal - it eats away a person's body, mind and soul, so what else is left thereafter? Emperor is still behaving like Balduran - still has his memories, his mannerisms, his ideals, goals... What exactly are the mechanics of this?

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I feel like Larian could have saved a lot of time if they just gave the player character the Artifact from the very beginning. You wake up, get out of the pod, and an Artifact on the floor flies into your hands.


It clears up the timeline:
-Emperor steals Artifact from Vlaakith.
-Shadowheart fails to steal it, having gotten caught.
-Emperor opens Artifact and gets in.
-You find Artifact and it is drawn to you.

Then they wouldn't have had to spend all that effort making different permutations to ensure that the Artifact absolutely ended up in your possession from Shadowheart.


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I think the Emperor is a very special case that Larian created. He has some of his memories which can happen with mindflayers but it goes beyond this for him as he seems to think he is the previous host
(Balduran)
and not the tadpole. Contrary to what the wiki says about the mindflayers he does seem to have positive feelings for example he said he was happy before he was taken away
by Gortash
also this could be a lie but he didn't have to say it at all so there was no need to lie.
And he seemed to have cared about the Duke - of course if she really was his thrall it was in a very sick way, but why else having a picture of her in his old hideout or even if you comfort him in the dream scene telling about her and that they were close? To make him appear more human?

I do wonder how he feeds.
Does he manage to kill off some of the honor guard regularly? Or does he leave the prism to fetch something?Strange that we never find anything like Astarions boar.

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Being in the Astral Plane means you don't need to eat.
Though I'm open to the possibility that isn't true of whatever function eating brains does for a Mind-Flayer

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Raz415
Honest question, why are you trying to include lore from other media (books, even other games) into BG3s timeline?

It's a rule known to all D&D players: Every DM creates their own world. They might use a known setting, they might use characters or other elements from a setting, but at the end of the day they decide how the multiverse works, what Gods are / are allowed to do / how they work. How magic works (if it even exists) and the timeline are 100% up to the creator.

That said, there are definitely things to discuss about BG3s timeline in particular, but anything from any other sources (including BG1 and 2) should be ignored imo. They included elements from BG1 and 2 but in LARIANS world they can act however Larian decides and whenever Larian decides. Bhaal has become active when Larian says so, etc.

In short, the only lore that matters for BG3 is BG3 lore. Just like you don't go on about how Elminster SHOULD BE according to x source when sitting at a DMs table.

Baldur's Gate isn't some "random" game, nor does ANY of the players get to be Dungeon Masters, ever. Players are, without exceptions, participants of the game and not the authors of it. Even if Baldur's Gate1, 2 and 3 exist in their own separate universe, away from anything and everything WOTC and Larian made before, Baldur's Gate still has it's own established universe, rules and plots that you can't break away from. You can't have on one end say "The Dead Three will be ressurected and unite again upon the death of the last Bhaalspawn (which is Gorion's Ward in 1482, canonically)" but then have Bhaal be active many decades before said event would occur. Here is the thing - ultimately, it doesn't change much. They could just have the entire plot delayed by 30 years and the plot would work just as well, but inconsistencies like this tend to build up over time and eventually degrade what could otherwise be a fantastic plot.

Imagine a timeline with what I just described:

1482-1512
- Gorion's Ward dies, the Dead Three are ressurected.
- The Three start rebuilding themselves, completely solo at first. Durge is created, Orin is born and the Temple of Bhaal is inhabited again.
- Balthazar, while not acting as Chosen of Myrkul, begins carrying out His most important tasks - one example being searching for a prime candidate to make Chosen.
- Bane is at a complete loss initially, until Gortash stumbles into Him.
- Contact between the Three are scarce, but slowly develops.
1512
-Gortash, now Chosen of Bane is tasked with retrieveing the Crown of Karsus.
-He meets the now Chosen of Bhaal, Durge, and the two develop their relationship.
-Later down the line, Balthazar finally finds the perfect candidate to be Chosen of Myrkul - Ketheric. Regardless if the Absolute plot was going to happen or not, but Ketheric's ascendance is a well timed convenience for the Dead Three.
-Everything else happens.
1522
-The events of Baldur's Gate 3 take place.

Nothing changes here, but now, there isn't a chronological disturbance of events that you have to retcon for in future installments. And this is just one issue of many, and as said, small issues - even if ultimately nitpicks - tend to add up and ends up ruining the immersion.

Let me ask you this: have you ever had a DM in any DnD game that you ever played who just completely ruined your immersion? They set up what is otherwise a brilliant thriller, only to make some absolutely insane blunders in the presentation of certain characters or such that ends up ruining the entire plot? It does not matter that that DnD universe is "temporary" and "custom" - your immersion was still broken, and the damage has been already dealt.

I meant that Larian is the DM and maybe we (as players) could just accept that this is THEIR version of the world smile
To answer your question, yes but not because of the DM. It was because another player suddenly started to spew lore about how the DM is wrong and that this character is ACTUALLY and WOULD NEVER etc. When I DM I have decided to either stay away from any established settings because some people just can't help themselves, or if the group REALLY insists I have them swear they understand that characters / events / timelines are fine in the universe they are playing in, no matter what any other sources / established lore says. Personally I have more fun with my own little setting where people don't expect me to be loremaster of both my own game and everything else that is considered canon in the setting.

"Canon" is imo a slippery term, Zerubbabel wrote: "1. Information on previously existing locations, characters, and events that occur in BG3 are now considered canon enough to rewrite all related wiki pages. Until it is retconned, BG3 is quasi-gospel to the lore."

I really don't think that a wiki (maintained by users and not WOTC) making edits makes things canon. As far as I know, whenever WOTC references some licensed RPG they only take the BIG THINGS and make them cannon. An adventurer of unknown sex, uncertain profession, forgotten class and many times even uncertain alignment. Abdel is more of an exception. Baldur's Gate novels have very little to do with the videogames. The videogames gave so much freedom of action it's impossible to make one "canon" ending unless you take away all meaningful choices made by players, unless you go ahead and say "well it's a multiverse, ALL of the endings are canon in one universe or another".

About Balduran's age - come on, we're in the Forgotten Realms. There are SO MANY ways of staying alive as an adventurer, it's actually ridiculous to even consider this. Time spent in Astral Plane? Being a druid / monk? Taking a chill Imprisonment pill? (To be honest, why didn't Ansur just cast Imprisonment on Balduran until a cure could be found? oh no now I'M doing it!). Anyway, my point is - age is such a non-issue. Jaheira had a Ritual in her hidey-hole, I wonder if that would do it. Or if it's just a really complicated ritual of applying aloe vera every day to your face for 100 years and your wrinkles will disappear.

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Okay, maybe not "canon." Let's call it established lore with competing perspectives. We can "Elder Scrolls" this stuff. Many ways to explain the same history, based on competing historiographies. Instead of saying "previous book said X so X is canon," we can imagine each previous book as a particular historian's take on events. Maybe they got information wrong. Maybe they're biased. Maybe it was revealed to them in a dream. Maybe there was a break in reality. Maybe the only real evidence is vague.

Instead of saying that something in the lore says otherwise, so the game is broken, we can instead look to the features of the lore which corroborate the story to situate it within the setting's history and dynamics.

While some may use canon to say that things are broken, I think we should use it to have fun.


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What a wonderful way of seeing it!

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On the feelings part, there's a lot to wonder about when it comes to Mind Flayers.
Ending spoiler:
If you choose to become a mindflayer, the narrator mentions how you are now free to manipulate your friends and former companions. You can choose not to do so, but that the thought even occured shows (imo) that being a mindflayer comes with some... let's call them alignment changes. When I heard that line, I suddenly had more understanding towards why the Emperor acted the way he did. The Design at all costs (not The Grand Design in his case, but the Emperor had some very clear goals and he let NOTHING stand in the way of those goals. One of them was to survive, which is why he killed Ansur and why he chose to join the Elder Brain when he was 100% sure that Orpheus would kill him. The Emperor manipulated Tav into thinking that Orpheus would be unreasonable and violent, but honestly I think he was just afraid that Orpheus would kill HIM for everything he had done to him. Not an unreasonable fear.
If I remember correctly, the dying Mindflayer you find at the beginning of the game is not only adept at forcing (realistic) feelings into Tavs head, but his body language expresses also feelings (which the narrator comments on). So I do think that they do have feelings. If we're to go into real world psychology and biology a bit, having feelings is a massive boon to survival in animals. It would be strange for them to not have any, unless each individuals every move is directly controlled by the Elder Brain (which iirc isn't the case).
Also
So they don't have souls? How come we can use Speak with Dead on them, then? (it calls the soul back to the body to answer questions)

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Originally Posted by Raz415
I meant that Larian is the DM and maybe we (as players) could just accept that this is THEIR version of the world smile

Ah yeah, that is more than fair enough - a lot of the source material by WOTC exists in Baldur's Gate of course, but if they say that Baldur's Gate is set in it's own universe, that is perfectly acceptable.

Originally Posted by Raz415
To answer your question, yes but not because of the DM. It was because another player suddenly started to spew lore about how the DM is wrong and that this character is ACTUALLY and WOULD NEVER etc. When I DM I have decided to either stay away from any established settings because some people just can't help themselves, or if the group REALLY insists I have them swear they understand that characters / events / timelines are fine in the universe they are playing in, no matter what any other sources / established lore says. Personally I have more fun with my own little setting where people don't expect me to be loremaster of both my own game and everything else that is considered canon in the setting.

Well, here's the thing - when it comes to storytelling and presenting, you have to have setups and payoffs. Take Boromir from the Fellowship of the Ring for example.

He is set up to be a courageous, well-respected and much loved leader of the Gondorians. His key trait boils down to duty - he has a duty to his father, Gondor and to the Fellowship, to Frodo. However, that duty goes both ways, and the One Ring exploits that. As the Fellowship travels, there are moments where it's clearly shown that Boromir is not being trustworthy when he's close to the ring - and the battle with the Uruk-Hai towards the tail end of the Fellowship, and Boromir's consequent death, is the result of that corruption. Note that there are many others that could possibly be tempted by the Ring, but the key difference between the rest of the Fellowship and Boromir is that Boromir's insecurity in his duty is very, VERY easily exploitable, while others, who would certainly get corrupted over time would need to spend much more time in the Ring's influence. It's a build-up with a brilliant payoff, cause and effect. If you remove the scenes with Boromir and the Ring before the battle with the Uruk-Hai, it comes off as if the plot just decided that Boromir needs to be evil for some time - and it also ruins Boromir's final acts and words to Aragorn as he bleeds out, as that redemption is simply never earned.

This is what I mean when it's important to make sure that the story is consistent, that there is setup and payoff - the universe might be the DM-s playground, but provide the wrong toys and tools and no one will be interested. I of course don't mean to criticise the way you enjoy playing your DnD sessions, but when it comes to assessing quality and creating an immersive story, you can't break and bend the rules as you want on a whim. (And to be extra clear: You can of course create a universe where the Mind Flayers are all benevolent or something like that. But it has to be very clear that this story is set in it's own universe, and it's also important that the writer/storyteller puts in the work to establish the rules of this new world)

Originally Posted by Raz415
"Canon" is imo a slippery term, Zerubbabel wrote: "1. Information on previously existing locations, characters, and events that occur in BG3 are now considered canon enough to rewrite all related wiki pages. Until it is retconned, BG3 is quasi-gospel to the lore."

I really don't think that a wiki (maintained by users and not WOTC) making edits makes things canon. As far as I know, whenever WOTC references some licensed RPG they only take the BIG THINGS and make them cannon. An adventurer of unknown sex, uncertain profession, forgotten class and many times even uncertain alignment. Abdel is more of an exception. Baldur's Gate novels have very little to do with the videogames. The videogames gave so much freedom of action it's impossible to make one "canon" ending unless you take away all meaningful choices made by players, unless you go ahead and say "well it's a multiverse, ALL of the endings are canon in one universe or another".

Even if we assume that the books have nothing to do with the games (which is fundamentally untrue), given that there is already 3 numbered Baldur's Gate titles with a continuing story, a canon by Larian exists. Clearly a lot of the good outcomes happened, so a throughline can be established. The books, as long as they are tied to the game and extend on the main plot instead of telling it's own, completely separate tale within that universe, do matter unfortunately. And I will say this - telling a story in multiple media outlets is plain and simply retarded. You can't make up for certain mistakes or establish a timeline and / or rules in a medium that no one is actually going to interact with as your main audience is already in the video gaming world. So, for example - Bhaal was killed is a definitive statement that we can make when it comes to canon.
(Sidenote: it'd be so freakin cool if Larian had a tool like Bioware where you can import saves from previous games to play using that continuity - while at the same time, simply hitting "new game" with default settings is what is considered canon ultimately. Think of it like an "Extended Universe" that still has to make sense storywriting wise, but of course not canon when it comes to continuing Baldur's Gate.)

Originally Posted by Raz415
About Balduran's age - come on, we're in the Forgotten Realms. There are SO MANY ways of staying alive as an adventurer, it's actually ridiculous to even consider this. Time spent in Astral Plane? Being a druid / monk? Taking a chill Imprisonment pill? (To be honest, why didn't Ansur just cast Imprisonment on Balduran until a cure could be found? oh no now I'M doing it!). Anyway, my point is - age is such a non-issue. Jaheira had a Ritual in her hidey-hole, I wonder if that would do it. Or if it's just a really complicated ritual of applying aloe vera every day to your face for 100 years and your wrinkles will disappear.

Cool, show it to me that it happened, establish that this is something that people have access to and employ. It's not that much of a commonality as many people in the universe die of old age. I'll bring up Lord of the Rings again as another example for this.
Bilbo Baggings is a hobbit that seemingly hasn't aged one bit ever since he returned from his adventures. At 118 years old, he still looks like he's in his 30s or 40s, despite the fact that he should be weak, frail and all grey since forever. This "preserving" effect was because he carried the One Ring with him. When he threw the ring away in his home and went on another adventure, the next time we see him with Frodo again (which was only a couple of weeks IIRC), Bilbo is already showing signs of aging. And by the time we see him at the end of Return of the King (and as far as I'm aware, the time difference between Gandalf arriving to Bilbo's birthday and Frodo meeting with Bilbo again was about 2-3 years), he has aged extremely.
You can say that "there are ways to prevent aging" but it has to actually be employed as a tool instead of assuming, especially when it's a limited resource.

And I'll say this as well - it's not that incredibly immersion breaking to see someone live way past their natural life cycle (of which by the way, previous commenters pieced together why that is very likely possible). But as I said before in this thread, the more holes the audience have to fill in, the more work the audience does for the writer, the story's quality worsens. It's a snowball effect.

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
And I'll say this as well - it's not that incredibly immersion breaking to see someone live way past their natural life cycle (of which by the way, previous commenters pieced together why that is very likely possible). But as I said before in this thread, the more holes the audience have to fill in, the more work the audience does for the writer, the story's quality worsens. It's a snowball effect.

This point exactly is the crux of the issue. I feel as though Larian has left a lot of holes in this story. I'm happy to gloss over a few inconsistencies or logical leaps for the sake of a good story, but it reaches a point where it feels like I'm doing the writer's work for them. It feels at some points like Larian didn't even try to maintain consistency or keep to Canon. They just did as they liked without a moment's consideration. And that is not an attitude that inspires confidence in one's narrative skills.

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
This is what I mean when it's important to make sure that the story is consistent, that there is setup and payoff - the universe might be the DM-s playground, but provide the wrong toys and tools and no one will be interested. I of course don't mean to criticise the way you enjoy playing your DnD sessions, but when it comes to assessing quality and creating an immersive story, you can't break and bend the rules as you want on a whim. (And to be extra clear: You can of course create a universe where the Mind Flayers are all benevolent or something like that. But it has to be very clear that this story is set in it's own universe, and it's also important that the writer/storyteller puts in the work to establish the rules of this new world)

[...}

And I'll say this as well - it's not that incredibly immersion breaking to see someone live way past their natural life cycle (of which by the way, previous commenters pieced together why that is very likely possible). But as I said before in this thread, the more holes the audience have to fill in, the more work the audience does for the writer, the story's quality worsens. It's a snowball effect.

This is all true. If BG3 was a book, we could rip it to shreds on these things alone. But it's a videogame that didn't have unlimited resources. We can't have EVERYTHING explained, but it's absolutely true that there things that should have been explained but aren't. I'd say Acts 1 and 2 do their job fairly well with a few exceptions (the Chosen not getting enough screentime, for example. Nere gets zero build-up and his arc is inexistant unfortunately), but what really makes the writing insufficient is act 3. Imagine all the lore tidbits we could have had in act 3 that would explain so much of the world - Baldurs Gate is massive, it has such diversity, there are opportunities to introduce ANYTHING in there. Any plotholes that are found can be filled in act 3, even if the devs don't touch any of the previous acts.

I'd love it if we could just say "show us" and Larian would snap their fingers and make it happen, but it's not that easy. I'm sure they are paying attention to this thread and are going to at least show us some things for the definitive edition. The definitive edition of D:OS2 did SO MUCH for story, it was incredible. I'm sure Larian will do as much as they can for BG3 too.

Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
And I will say this - telling a story in multiple media outlets is plain and simply retarded. You can't make up for certain mistakes or establish a timeline and / or rules in a medium that no one is actually going to interact with as your main audience is already in the video gaming world.
God, yes.
It's already risky when we're taking up some extremely old videogames, written by different writers, made on a different engine in a different style, etc etc. I'm fairly certain catering to the restrictions of consoles and handheld devices held BG3 back a lot.

The only time this worked out well (imo) was when someone actually took all the dialogue from the Planescape Torment and wrote just enough to tie everything together, so that people who do not play videogames could enjoy the amazing story in written form. It wasn't perfect still, but what we're seeing these days is incredibly bad. WOTC basically sells their licence to whoever has the money to pay for it (have you seen those horrible p2w D&D mobile games?) and check if people actually liked the content - if they did, WOTC starts "canonizing" things, including them in modules and novels. The result is usually disgusting, buying the Baldur's Gate novels is one of my worst book purchases. Characters like Lae'zel and Astarion are already included in one of the idle cashgrab games, I don't even want to know what their in-game descriptions look like.

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Originally Posted by Raz415
Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
This is what I mean when it's important to make sure that the story is consistent, that there is setup and payoff - the universe might be the DM-s playground, but provide the wrong toys and tools and no one will be interested. I of course don't mean to criticise the way you enjoy playing your DnD sessions, but when it comes to assessing quality and creating an immersive story, you can't break and bend the rules as you want on a whim. (And to be extra clear: You can of course create a universe where the Mind Flayers are all benevolent or something like that. But it has to be very clear that this story is set in it's own universe, and it's also important that the writer/storyteller puts in the work to establish the rules of this new world)

[...}

And I'll say this as well - it's not that incredibly immersion breaking to see someone live way past their natural life cycle (of which by the way, previous commenters pieced together why that is very likely possible). But as I said before in this thread, the more holes the audience have to fill in, the more work the audience does for the writer, the story's quality worsens. It's a snowball effect.

This is all true. If BG3 was a book, we could rip it to shreds on these things alone. But it's a videogame that didn't have unlimited resources. We can't have EVERYTHING explained, but it's absolutely true that there things that should have been explained but aren't. I'd say Acts 1 and 2 do their job fairly well with a few exceptions (the Chosen not getting enough screentime, for example. Nere gets zero build-up and his arc is inexistant unfortunately), but what really makes the writing insufficient is act 3. Imagine all the lore tidbits we could have had in act 3 that would explain so much of the world - Baldurs Gate is massive, it has such diversity, there are opportunities to introduce ANYTHING in there. Any plotholes that are found can be filled in act 3, even if the devs don't touch any of the previous acts.

I'd love it if we could just say "show us" and Larian would snap their fingers and make it happen, but it's not that easy. I'm sure they are paying attention to this thread and are going to at least show us some things for the definitive edition. The definitive edition of D:OS2 did SO MUCH for story, it was incredible. I'm sure Larian will do as much as they can for BG3 too.

Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
And I will say this - telling a story in multiple media outlets is plain and simply retarded. You can't make up for certain mistakes or establish a timeline and / or rules in a medium that no one is actually going to interact with as your main audience is already in the video gaming world.
God, yes.
It's already risky when we're taking up some extremely old videogames, written by different writers, made on a different engine in a different style, etc etc. I'm fairly certain catering to the restrictions of consoles and handheld devices held BG3 back a lot.

The only time this worked out well (imo) was when someone actually took all the dialogue from the Planescape Torment and wrote just enough to tie everything together, so that people who do not play videogames could enjoy the amazing story in written form. It wasn't perfect still, but what we're seeing these days is incredibly bad. WOTC basically sells their licence to whoever has the money to pay for it (have you seen those horrible p2w D&D mobile games?) and check if people actually liked the content - if they did, WOTC starts "canonizing" things, including them in modules and novels. The result is usually disgusting, buying the Baldur's Gate novels is one of my worst book purchases. Characters like Lae'zel and Astarion are already included in one of the idle cashgrab games, I don't even want to know what their in-game descriptions look like.

Hmm. Honestly, I guess I just don't care about that sort of thing. Some of these characters, existing in a bastardized form in other media, (media which I will never see), doesn't really in itself harm my enjoyment of BG3. I mean after all, I'll never see it. It's more important to me that whatever goes on within this game makes some sort of internal sense.

Unless what you're saying is that you have to engage in those other forms of media to know the full story of this game? I'm a little confused by what you're saying.

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I don't care much either. This is why I was so surprised to see people in this thread bringing up "canon" from other products. It's like... we're playing BG3. Made by Larian, in 2023.

Plotholes that come from this particular game? Sure, they need addressing and fixing if possible.

"WOTC said" / "According to that author that writes FR novels..." don't really belong imo. I don't even think that BG1/2 lore belongs here, since that's an old game from an old edition where spells worked differently and people could choose so much there's very little that happened in ALL playthroughs that could be considered "canon". Gorion's ward was of an unspecified sex and race, unknown class, unknown alignment, spells worked differently (because of different edition), etc. That WOTC decided to release some module after seeing how popular BG1 and 2 were really doesn't mean that BG3 needs to stick to whatever crap WOTC wrote. "It's canon" is just a really annoying phrase to me. The only things that should matter are the universe created and presented by Larian in BG3. And there's plenty to nitpick there for those so inclined, there's no need to bring other media into this.

Honestly, answers like "we just don't know" are perfectly acceptable sometimes. Every little detailed being explained not only too resource demanding but also... boring. World needs some mystery. How DID Balduran live so long? Who knows, maybe he was just that cool smile

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Originally Posted by Raz415
I don't care much either. This is why I was so surprised to see people in this thread bringing up "canon" from other products. It's like... we're playing BG3. Made by Larian, in 2023.

Plotholes that come from this particular game? Sure, they need addressing and fixing if possible.

"WOTC said" / "According to that author that writes FR novels..." don't really belong imo. I don't even think that BG1/2 lore belongs here, since that's an old game from an old edition where spells worked differently and people could choose so much there's very little that happened in ALL playthroughs that could be considered "canon". Gorion's ward was of an unspecified sex and race, unknown class, unknown alignment, spells worked differently (because of different edition), etc. That WOTC decided to release some module after seeing how popular BG1 and 2 were really doesn't mean that BG3 needs to stick to whatever crap WOTC wrote. "It's canon" is just a really annoying phrase to me. The only things that should matter are the universe created and presented by Larian in BG3. And there's plenty to nitpick there for those so inclined, there's no need to bring other media into this.

Honestly, answers like "we just don't know" are perfectly acceptable sometimes. Every little detailed being explained not only too resource demanding but also... boring. World needs some mystery. How DID Balduran live so long? Who knows, maybe he was just that cool smile

I guess I misunderstood. I also don't really care exactly how Balduran lived that long (to be frank it is the most minor of my concerns with that character.) As I said before, gnomes aren't supposed to be able to be turned into mindflayers, but whatever, who cares, fudge the lore just a little bit. BG1 and BG2 are *sorta* canon in BG3, but there is *no ending* of BG2 that is actually compatible with BG3, and that's fine. I might mind more if BG3 was intended to be like, a direct sequel, but it's not; it's more akin to a tribute made 2 decades later. I'm willing to handwave some things in external sources of official lore so long as the game remains internally. Now, it doesn't, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean you need to start having stricter standards about what you would have handwaved if it did.

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Regarding the Balthazar notes, if I remember correctly they are in the initial crypt portion of the Shar Temple in the auxiliary sections. I think they are meant to be hints for the picture puzzle that everyone brute forces.

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As for the nature the thread is going down, I don't feel that Baldur's Gate 3 has effectively positioned itself as being more tribute than sequel.

The returning and referenced characters really seem like they want the player to embrace BG3 as a sequel to not only BG1-2 but also the Descent into Avernus module. I also think the discussion of the game as canonical is warranted. Dungeons and Dragons is an odd franchise when it comes to discussing canonicity, but it is one that is swayed a lot by popularity in the vein of money spent. With BG3 getting so much acclaim and glowing sales numbers, there is little doubt in my mind that it will anchor itself as part of the broad strokes canon of the Forgotten Realms.

I can't really say this next part eloquently, but I think - more than anything else - it is important to read the Descent into Avernus module. It gives a lot of supporting details for the city of Baldur's Gate in particular but also establishes some characterizations that we see in BG3.

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Originally Posted by twi
Regarding the Balthazar notes, if I remember correctly they are in the initial crypt portion of the Shar Temple in the auxiliary sections. I think they are meant to be hints for the picture puzzle that everyone brute forces.

I could only find Ketheric's journals 1-3 in there. I must be missing something obvious, but I swear to god I turned Moonrise and Temple of Shar upside down searching for Balthazar's Note nr1 and I still can't find it.

If anyone has access to all of Balthazar's NR1 note, can anyone share a full transcript please? Information on this on the internet is non-existant based on my search.

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Originally Posted by WizardGnome
Hmm. Honestly, I guess I just don't care about that sort of thing. Some of these characters, existing in a bastardized form in other media, (media which I will never see), doesn't really in itself harm my enjoyment of BG3. I mean after all, I'll never see it. It's more important to me that whatever goes on within this game makes some sort of internal sense.

Unless what you're saying is that you have to engage in those other forms of media to know the full story of this game? I'm a little confused by what you're saying.

My point is that any universe is supposed to make sense according to it's own set of internal rules. As said before, even we only use BG1, 2 and 3 as what is canon to the story of Baldur's Gate and nothing else, there are still many things that will never make sense. Of course we happen to have 3rd party content that is tied to and expands Baldur's Gate, therefore, unfortunately, when it comes to assessing the quality of the story, we HAVE to include everything that is considered canon and an expansion to the lore.

I think I can speak for everyone in this post that ignoring every bit of content other than the actual games makes the game much more enjoyable for everyone. Some might straight up ignore BG1 and 2, and only focus on 3. However, subjectively, everyone has their own lines as to how much they can ignore until it starts being too bothersome - for me, I have a cut-off point depending on the amount of mistakes and the severity of those mistakes. Once more bringing up Lord of the Rings, the movie adaptations missed a lot of things from the books, but for my personal enjoyment it barely makes a dent because of the masterful craft by Peter Jackson - but objectively speaking the movie has made errors that should not have existed. For others, those mistakes are enough to ruin their enjoyment, even including the lack of Tom Bombadil.

To sum up what I am saying - objective quality and assessment is crucial to your subjective enjoyment. A poorly crafted product can be enjoyed, and a masterwork can be no fun, but ultimately, it is important to be able to separate objective from subjective when needed, and use objective and subjective together when needed.

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Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers

Where exactly is this document? I went back in my saves (as I found nothing on Google aside a fucktonne of guides as to how to get into Balthazar's room, something I've already done) and I couldn't find any trace of information - I found
Balthazar's personal notes 2 and 3 as I have before (sidenote: this also gave me the opportunity to re-read "Elder Brain Domination" again, where Ketheric hints that before the Crown was placed atop the Brain, the Bhaalists already had leadership struggles. However, this must not be related to Orin replacing Durge, as the replacement must have happened super late into the Absolute plot), but haven't found anything else that sheds any light on the period between Orin's betrayal and Durge waking up on the Nautiloid.

Nevertheless, my point still stands - it is INCREDIBLY fucking lucky that Durge ended up on that Nautiloid.

Edit: Now that I think about it - Balthazar prompts no reaction when he sees the Durge again in Act2. You'd think he'd have some sort of reaction given that they both worked together and apparently violated his body too.


It is the book "Clasped Book" in his room in Moonrise Towers, in the book shelf on the east side of the first door to his room (X= -126, Y= -180). I am sorry, I remembered it wrong - I checked it again and it doesn't say that he specifically ordered Durge to be there, just that Kressa Bonedaughter (Balthazars assistant necromancer) saved Durge (Durge is not named but apparantly in a Durge playthrough you can talk with Kressa and she was indeed working on Durge) and is fond of Durge and later in the section he complains that he shouldn't have allowed her to keep her "pet" and ever "since it was shipped onto one of the nautiloids to be deployed, she has been inconsolable" and is distracted. In the mindflayer colony below you can find a note from her speaking about her work and that she makes thralls but is forbidden to study them. "I need a new one, one that Balthazar doesn't know of. A creature of exceptional will, like my dear old pet, can keep fragments of its own mind while affected by the parasite."

So it isn't clear if it was on Balthazars order or not - he clearly wasn't happy that she was distracted by Durge so he had a motive to get rid of Durge (saying Durge will be a great fighter for the absolute). And as she says in her note, that Baltharzar shouldn't know about it if she had a new pet/thrall to study could imply that it was him with the order to get rid of Durge - so she is afraid he would remove her new pet too. If he was just a little unhappy with her but let her work regardless on her pet project she wouldn't have a good reason to keep it secret.

And it sounds like Durge might have been tadpoled by her - but it would be helpful if someone with a Durge playthrough (mine isn't far enough) could check if she says something about that. Because she is interested in studying thralls and she is speaking about Durge having still parts of its own mind despite having a parasite (see above).

Regarding no reaction by Balthazar - it seems like Ketheric gives no reaction to Durges too from what I have heard from others. Maybe bug/no time left/forgot about it...?

And yes, it is incredibly lucky that Durge ended on the SAME Nautiloid as the Emperor says many were sent to look for the prism but he found it first. So other Nautiloids were sent as well and Balthazar writes in his book (mentioned above) that Durge was shipped to ONE of the Nautiloids to be employed not THE Nautiloid to be deployed.


Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> There are acutally several
Nautiloids in the Colony as when you arrive near the brain Tav says they just saw a fleet of Nautiloids leaving (I didn't see anything, was just a voice line from Tav). But all the Nautiloids in the end over Baldurs Gate have to come somehwere, so this would fit.

Again, that doesn't change the fact that it was incredibly lucky to have
a dormant Mind Flayer colony survive for more than ten thousand years since the fall of the Illithid Empire (despite major construction work taking place in the local area, not to mention that the Githyanki would have for sure gone over all the Planes with a fine-tooth comb), and have it house an Elder Brain and Nautiloids. Had they had no Nautiloids to begin with, they would have needed significantly more time to prepare the Absolute plot.

I wasn't trying to invalidate your point but just to add that there are several Nautiloids there. Because I did not see them but my Tav commented on it. So it is possible that people are wondering at the end where all the Nautiloids come from and at the end of act 2 they at least mention that they are there.


Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> I think the Emperor
not appearing as Balduran might simply be because he wanted to appear in a form that the origins/Tav finds trustworthy. So he appears in different forms for everyone. He could have appeared as Balduran but he isn't really attached to his old appearance anymore so he doesn't care because his real form is now being a mindflayer. And who knows if they would have believed him that he is Balduran as Balduran was likely thought to be lost/dead. Maybe this would even lead to being more sceptical of him.

This is pure speculation.
The Emperor in Act3 says that "I AM an adventurer, just like you, and that I wanted more, so I went to Moonrise". He NEVER once implies that he has gaps in his memories, nor do we as the third person get to look inside his head to piece together the puzzle. Therefore, the only correct interpretation is that he is simply choosing to discard his persona of Balduran, but the reasons as to why, and the reasons as to why he doesn't change his mind later on once he's in the Astral Prism or when talking with Stelmane is completely unknown.


I was trying to give an explanation to why he would not show as Balduran. As you said, we only have what the game is showing and can't read the characters thoughts. And so we have to rely on speculation where we don't have a clear answer. And you and others are also speculating in this thread so I don't see the issue sharing my thoughts. I also never said he has gasps in his memories.

And there is proof that he doesn't miss his old BODY:

"As an illithid, I have far surpassed who I ever was before."

"Rare are those that would openly consider a partnership with a mind flayer. Even those who are on a part of becoming one. It's like I said before - I'm just like you." -> so basically his I AM LIKE YOU is not just I am a human like you but I AM A MINDFLAYER and you are about to become one...

"When I first escaped from the elder brain, I searched for a new vessel. But the longer I inhabited this one, the more it grew on me. I realized that returning to my former self would only impose limitations. Any adavantage I could gain by restoring my original appearance, I already had to hand in the form of magic and that humanoid shape you've come to know" (meaning the dream guardian).

So he doesn't miss his old body, even thinks being a mindflayer is better. He might still think about himself as Balduran. But we also need to keep in mind is that he is not a reliable source. He also tells us "You are not becoming a mindflayer, not while I'm around" as dream guardian and later he wants us to become half Illithid. He is manipulative, he wants us to be his allies, to help him breaking free of the elder brain.

Did you notice that in one dream he was wearing daisys old revealing clothing? He isn't daisy but there are still elements of him trying to be seductive or at least to make us like him, to bind us to him. And if that doesn't work he tries to threaten us (like with the memories of the Duke - I am still not sure if she really was a thrall or if he just showed us some fake "memory" to threaten us with the idea that he could make us a thrall and force us to do things). He decides what he shows us. And this might not what happened. And the Narrator isn't reliable either. I haven't had the dialog but from others I heard (but this still needs to be verified) that he even admits that he made Orpheus or/and the honor guard more menacing to give us more reason to ally with him.

Of course, he didn't think it through that appearing as different persons in the dreams (e.g. my Tav had a male dream guardian and I know Gale had a female one) would make the people more sceptical. Had he just showed up with the same appearance his "I am just an adventurer like you" would have been more believable.

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Quote
And it sounds like Durge might have been tadpoled by her - but it would be helpful if someone with a Durge playthrough (mine isn't far enough) could check if she says something about that. Because she is interested in studying thralls and she is speaking about Durge having still parts of its own mind despite having a parasite (see above).

Apparently, durge was the first tadpoling victim. I don't remember what exactly she says, but I didn't get the impression that she did it - just that she found them on the floor, near death, patched them up and kept cutting them open and healing them again and again, developing a very unhealthy relationship while doing it. The durge definitely wasn't very functional during this time, as she's never even heard their voice before.

Quote
Regarding no reaction by Balthazar - it seems like Ketheric gives no reaction to Durges too from what I have heard from others. Maybe bug/no time left/forgot about it...?
Ketheric recognizes the durge, but he doesn't have that much to say about it. Just tells them he hopes they're there to help rather than cause trouble and to respect his authority. By his subdued reaction, I'm assuming he doesn't even know what happened to them - just that one day they disappeared and Orin took their place. (It's kinda weird in retrospect, ofc the real reason he doesn't have more to say is so that too much of the story isn't given out too early)

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Originally Posted by Cawyden
It is the book "Clasped Book" in his room in Moonrise Towers, in the book shelf on the east side of the first door to his room (X= -126, Y= -180). I am sorry, I remembered it wrong - I checked it again and it doesn't say that he specifically ordered Durge to be there, just that Kressa Bonedaughter (Balthazars assistant necromancer) saved Durge (Durge is not named but apparantly in a Durge playthrough you can talk with Kressa and she was indeed working on Durge) and is fond of Durge and later in the section he complains that he shouldn't have allowed her to keep her "pet" and ever "since it was shipped onto one of the nautiloids to be deployed, she has been inconsolable" and is distracted. In the mindflayer colony below you can find a note from her speaking about her work and that she makes thralls but is forbidden to study them. "I need a new one, one that Balthazar doesn't know of. A creature of exceptional will, like my dear old pet, can keep fragments of its own mind while affected by the parasite."

So it isn't clear if it was on Balthazars order or not - he clearly wasn't happy that she was distracted by Durge so he had a motive to get rid of Durge (saying Durge will be a great fighter for the absolute). And as she says in her note, that Baltharzar shouldn't know about it if she had a new pet/thrall to study could imply that it was him with the order to get rid of Durge - so she is afraid he would remove her new pet too. If he was just a little unhappy with her but let her work regardless on her pet project she wouldn't have a good reason to keep it secret.

I've looked into this, and WOW that opens up a couple plot holes. Originally, I pieced together the following timeline:

- Orin betrays Durge, someplace unknown, likely the Temple of Bhaal as that is where a dead Durge is put on display if you play as any other origin.
- He is promptly forgotten about, Orin thinking that she killed Durge - either that or some unknown force, likely Bhaal, saved him.
- Magically, Durge stumbles their way along just enough to be kidnapped and tadpoled in the cinematic.

But now, the timeline is actually the following:
- Orin betrays Durge in Moonrise and she infects him with a tadpole.
- A couple hours later, he is found by Kressa who saved him to be used for her experiments with the tadpole.
- According to Kressa, Durge's mind is so special that despite the tadpole, they can have independent thoughts and retain their memory.
- Balthazar is annoyed that his assistant keeps getting distracted. He doesn't know who her "pet" is - he unknowningly orders Durge to be disposed of.
- Luckily, Durge is placed on the same Nautiloid as Emperor, and the same Nautiloid that is soon to steal the Astral Prism.

Soooo... Durge got tadpoled twice? Because, remember, the trailer is the same for every single origin - the person watching Lae'zel get tadpoled is also tadpoled. But surely, the tadpoling mind flayer must have known that Durge was already infected. So why place another tadpole in Durge? There was no reason to place a completely newly born Tadpole in Durge even if they were looking to make him a super soldier, as the only reason to absorb an existing tadpole is if it has gathered knowledge and experience from a previously infected person (aka. true souls).

It also means Orin has levels of stupid measured in the size of the biggest galaxies known to Man (and, she WAS before this as well, but this just confirms it even more). Here's the thing - don't play Durge, Durge is dead in Orin's bedchambers. Play Durge, she suddenly forgets to look into the dying body of her previous master having been kidnapped. I thought she treated murder as art? Surely, Durge would have been her greatest masterpiece. Let's assume that the roles are reversed - that Durge was to betray Orin. In that case, this would actually make sense, as Durge sees murder as the ultimate goal, and in his jealousy, he would have let Orin suffer in her final hours, leaving her to bleed out and completely forgetting about her afterwards. But that is just simply not what happens. Orin would have absolutely burned Moonrise to the ground in search of Durge. And what was the point in tadpoling Durge anyways? She was going to kill him regardless - the explanation of "well she's crazy and wanted to torture Durge" doesn't work because that is no longer Durge that she's torturing, that's the tadpole. She's just a plain and simple idiot and Bhaal should have fucking killed her.

On top of this, Durge was not under the influence of the initial tadpole put into her by Orin (at least not completely). Remember that the Brain thought of Durge as it's master, completely willingly mind you. Therefore, the moment Durge got betrayed and had a tadpole put into him, the Brain MUST have been made aware of what just happened. The turnaround from "My Master" to "Disgraced Master" and "Pawn in the Grand Design" was fucking SECONDS. What is the point in betraying Durge so quickly? The Brain felt genuine gratitude and actually revered Durge, so why toss him under the bus so quickly? Wouldn't the Brain be outraged? Why exactly is an assassination ATTEMPT enough to make the Brain think so poorly of Durge? This is just insanely premature for a bloody Elder Brain of all things, entities that are literal biological quantum supercomputers. And remember, there was a brief period of time where a Netherstone wasn't active, even if only minutes given the murder attempt happened just a couple minutes away from where the Brain was located. So why not break free in rage? And to return to the beginning of this paragraph, what exactly were the Brain's intentions with letting Durge retain a sense of free will, but at the same time later in the game bombard the Durge with orders to "follow her Chosen" and orders to transform into a Mind Flayer??????????????? "Grand Design"... Grand Idiocy more like.

I am actually willing to let the luck portion of that timeline go regarding the Nautiloid - I have said before that the greatest strings of lucks are often what generates mankind's greatest stories, and that incredibly lucky events happen all the time, so whatever, with this timeline it's actually way, WAY more plausible, if not believeable.

Time to edit the OP... My god, what a mess.

Originally Posted by Cawyden
Regarding no reaction by Balthazar - it seems like Ketheric gives no reaction to Durges too from what I have heard from others. Maybe bug/no time left/forgot about it...?

This is something I brought up in the OP as well.
Ketheric has Durge Amnesia for no single reason, but I didn't consider Balthazar until later into this discussion. I've even complained about this in my very first post on these forums criticising the Evil Durge playthrough.

Originally Posted by Cawyden
I was trying to give an explanation to why he would not show as Balduran. As you said, we only have what the game is showing and can't read the characters thoughts. And so we have to rely on speculation where we don't have a clear answer. And you and others are also speculating in this thread so I don't see the issue sharing my thoughts. I also never said he has gasps in his memories.

Fair enough, I am just so incredibly frustrated with
Emperor/Balduran as a character that I am not willing to slip any speculation past, as there is barely anything we can claim as a concrete fact about him without annihilating his character. And yes, you haven't said he has gaps in his memories, that is something I brought up to reinforce the fact that he should, even if at the back of his mind, keep to his Balduran persona for when it becomes useful. And as far as I'm aware, most playable and creatable characters are Baldurians who live(d) in Baldur's Gate, so you'd think they'd be familiar, if not enthralled by the stories of Balduran, legendary adventurer and founder of Baldur's Gate. Apologies if I seemed to lash out against you - that wasn't my intention.

Originally Posted by Cawyden
But we also need to keep in mind is that he is not a reliable source. He also tells us "You are not becoming a mindflayer, not while I'm around" as dream guardian and later he wants us to become half Illithid. He is manipulative, he wants us to be his allies, to help him breaking free of the elder brain.

This is exactly why he is written so poorly. He is insanely inconsistent in what he tells the players.
When you first get to see him in his mind flayer form, you can actually cast detect thoughts, and verify that EVERYTHING he is saying is sincere and true. He has always advocated for illithid powers, as you quoted him, and as I mentioned in the OP, becoming an illithid was actually a giant win in his book. From the very get-go however, he should have appeared as Balduran and said something along the lines of "Another adventurer in the same boots as I was (actually giving the "I am just like you" line a meaning) - infected and powerless against the inevitable. My name is Balduran, and I am here to help you on your quest. The artefact you hold neutralizes the effects of Ceremorphosis, and I believe we can take advantage of that. These parasitic creatures are vessels for knowledge, experience and power. No doubt that on this path, you will stumble into many infected warriors. Extract their powers, and use them to your benefit. You may think that I am nothing more than illithid illusions, or you might think whatever else, but I will tell you this: keep that artefact close. It will be you and yours's salvation, and maybe, it yet be mine."

Of course, give it to an actual writer who crafts dialogue better than I do, but that should be the takeaway. That already establishes a strong foundation for Emperor/Balduran's character, instead of trying to be everything at once - a person you can trust, a person you shouldn't trust, a person promising you power, a person who you can be friends with, your saviour, your slaver... your lover? Right now, Emperor is a bloody ping-pong.

Edit2: You could even make it so that the Durge is special in that they don't need the Astral Prism to stay sane as the Brain goes out of its way to help Durge on his journey, trying to reunite with its master for an especially evil ending. There could be a real big conflict between Emperor and the Brain, putting an amnesiac Durge into an incredibly difficult circumstance. Given that'd require a significant rewrite and tons of dev work, but after playing games like DAO, different outcomes based on what origin you play is a standard I adopted.

Edit: It looks like I can't actually edit the OP anymore, and I'm not sure how to message any mods about this as their Forum Help page gives the following error: Parse error: syntax error, unexpected '<', expecting end of file in /home/larian/public_html/languages/english/faq.php on line 46 - would be nice if I didn't have to open another thread for this.

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For those unaware, there was a new edit in the OP with the info from the above post. Thank you to everyone once more for all the discussions and contributions.

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Apologies in advance if this counts as necroing the thread, but I figured I'd share as it's very relevant to this.

I'd like to take some time to delve into the mechanics of the Astral Prism
and it's "ability" to block out hivemind communications. As we know, the Prism houses Orpheus, the sole remaining entity that has this ability. Now, it is claimed several times that the Prism has an "aura" that has a cumulative effect the more you are around it, and a decreasing effect the more you distance yourself from it. However, there is one entity who can choose NOT to send out hivemind comms - which is different from disrupting it - the Brain itself. This is also something that the Brain admits to have done by releasing the Emperor from under it's grasp to be a pawn in the Grand Design.

Therefore, to sum it up, there are three ways to block hivemind comms:
- The aura of the Astral Prism ramping up.
- The Emperor using Orpheus's power with precision.
- The Brain letting certain individuals roam free on purpose.
However, I have argued in the OP that this isn't the case and that the Prism, in fact, does not have a radiating aura. I have recently been messaged by several people that I had this wrong, so I would like to list key examples of who/what is blocking out comms in key plot moments, with what purpose, and why it's one big plot hole.

1: The player character. In the first Dream Sequence, the Emperor finally managed to extend Orpheus's protection to you. He has confirmed that you were just about to transform, which much later on is confirmed as he claims that the order for your transformation has been given thousand times over. While the netherese-touched tadpoles are intended to induce a state of suspended ceremorphosis, there is also nothing to suggest that the suspension must occur with these tadpoles. Why there is nothing to suggest this is not clear - one could assume that it'd be an attempt at throwing off any potential investigators, but this is pure assumption with no evidence to back it up. Note that these tadpoles are capable of instantly transforming their victims into mind flayers unlike normal tadpoles, which take roughly a week to do so. Again, nothing to confirm that this instant transformation can only happen after said week has passed, but we can assume that instantly transforming just after an infestation is impossible. What we can confirm though, as there have been several cases during the plot, is that suspended ceremorphosis does not activate until a few hours after being tadpoled - key examples here are the players, origins and Duke Ravengard.

2: Minthara. After raiding the Grove and spending the night with her at the altar, she finds herself worried and panicked that she can no longer hear the Absolute's voice. Her immediate suspicion is that the Player is responsible for this, and so chooses to distance herself. After thinking things over, she decides to end your life, yet at the last moment she can once more hear the voice of the Absolute, who then tells her that it is up to MInthara if they find the Player worthy of Her. Now, it is easy to piece together that the story is implying the fact that after several hours of having been together with the Player, Minthara fell under the protection of the Prism, which is why she couldn't hear the Absolute, and once she distanced herself, the connection was restored. The protection never activates again however, despite being near the Player again for some time. Later on, if you recruit her, she is protected once more, this time by Emperor.

3: The player character (once more). At the beginning of Act3, if you choose to kill Emperor upon first contact, you get a game over screen where you become a thrall to the Brain as the extended protection of Orpheus is lost.

4: Minsc. In his case, we witness Emperor's extension live, and Minsc takes some time to gather his bearings as soon as the disruption happens, not unlike Minthara.

To make it incredibly simple to understand: cases where Emperor/Orpheus steps in to protect others are - with one exception in the next paragraph - always consitent in universe. Cases where it comes down to whether the Brain let someone go or the passive "aura" of the Prism is what was responsible are extremely foggy, even with the confirmation by the Brain itself that Emperor was let go willingly. Here's the thing: in example three, you have been under the protection of the Prism for days, weeks, maybe months. And sure, it was Emperor who channeled the power, but if the Prism has an aura, then why would it protect Minthara after several hours together and why wouldn't it protect the Player? There is no reason to believe in any hypothetical emanating auras as the Brain can toy around with whoever they wish, and point three very explicitly confirms that Orpheus's power must be wielded with precision, else it won't work at all. There is also nothing to suggest or confirm that Emperor directly reached out to protect Minthara in Act1, which muddies the waters even more.

There is one slight inconsistency with Orpheus's power, and that is if you decide to free Orpheus. Once Emperor leaves, his protection should have fallen and we should have gotten a game over screen - just like at the start of Act3. And had that happened, he would have been correct in all his worries and all his warnings that there is no point in freeing Orpheus. Yet there is a period of time between Emperor leaving and Orpheus being freed when the power is not channeled, which is interesting because if you tell Orpheus that you want to become a Mind Flayer, the very millisecond the protection drops, you are turned into one.

Ultimately, once we run into an inconsistency, the only explanation is defaulting to the claim that "it must have been the Brain", which in itself is simply not a reasonable one, especially when it goes against it's own interests.

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the Emperor claiming he had stopped multiple orders for your transformation was the point where I decided to stop trusting him. It’s one of those unverifiable claims that are designed to gain the confidence of the gullible and naive. Why you’re taking what he says at face value I don’t understand

How the prism works is unclear but we can ascertain from the bridge scene that the Absolute’s voice isn’t constant but comes in dramatic revelatory bursts, it is speculated that how we receive orders from the Absolute on the bridge is how others perceive our own commands when using the [illithid] . How Minthara reacts to our presence then could just be her realizing that her appeals for guidance have gone unanswered since being in our presence

Or maybe its the Emperor letting her in. There’s another interesting scene when mind delving into Minthara where Chosen are shown to become mindless thralls if their natural psychic defenses are stripped from them

I’m questioning my memory now, but does Minsc have a tadpole?

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Originally Posted by Sozz
the Emperor claiming he had stopped multiple orders for your transformation was the point where I decided to stop trusting him. It’s one of those unverifiable claims that are designed to gain the confidence of the gullible and naive. Why you’re taking what he says at face value I don’t understand

Because there is literally no reason to distrust him, especially in the context of
killing him at the start of Act3 making you an immediate thrall. Yes, he is awful at convincing just about anyone (and even has strange remnants of wearing Daisy's clothes during a dream sequence), but that's because of the poor craftsmanship by the writers, not because that is what the plot actually claims. In fact, Emperor is one of the few people to not lie in the entirety of the game. He does not reveal full portions of information, yes (which is my main frustration with his writing, that despite being highly experienced, highly knowledgeable and more than 500 years old, he is fucking AWFUL at crafting words of gold despite being an Illithid), but after his reveal, we discover that everything he has been doing and saying is true, and everything he does and says afterwards is true (excluding his awful and unreasonable miscalculation of Orpheus, but whatever).

Originally Posted by Sozz
How the prism works is unclear but we can ascertain from the bridge scene that the Absolute’s voice isn’t constant but comes in dramatic revelatory bursts, it is speculated that how we receive orders from the Absolute on the bridge is how others perceive our own commands when using the [illithid] . How Minthara reacts to our presence then could just be her realizing that her appeals for guidance have gone unanswered since being in our presence

If that were the case, then after
an order was completed, the infected would then regain some sense of sanity as now there is nothing holding them, not unlike how the players get to mess with NPCs they used their illithid powers on. However there is nothing that supports this.

Originally Posted by Sozz
Or maybe its the Emperor letting her in. There’s another interesting scene when mind delving into Minthara where Chosen are shown to become mindless thralls if their natural psychic defenses are stripped from them

But that would be quite literally impossible, or at the very least, insanely clumsy and stupid by
Emperor, as in Act2, it takes him SECONDS to pull Minthara under his protection when you recruit her in Moonrise, yet in Act1 it is played that Minthara was beginning to experience the initial effects of the protection (not hearing the Absolute but not yet regaining her complete sanity) which is what caused her to run off.

Originally Posted by Sozz
I’m questioning my memory now, but does Minsc have a tadpole?

Yep, he does.
Emperor even gets grumpy and says that there is no reason for him to extend his protection to Minsc, because as he puts it, Minsc would be a liability and a danger. Which is... not entirely wrong, given Minsc's character. And just like with Minthara in Act2, all it takes is seconds to fully protect Minsc.

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He tells you that in the middle of Act I,
the first opportunity we have to kill the Emperor occurs after one of the chosen has been killed, weakening their power over the Elderbrain mumble mumble keeping the tadpoles in stasis, without total control we begin having psychic episodes related to our previously arrested transformation, there’s even a recently birthed mind-flayer in a windmill who has been transformed at this stage.

the original command is brainwashing them into blind obedience to their new god, something we never underwent I’m not sure that needs to be reapplied. Though certainly the tadpoles probably link then to the hivemind they’ve been told is communing with the Absolute. And what is the purpose of Ascention?

If mere proximity to the relic were enough to do this to the chosen, there would be no hiding that from them throughout the acts, like during our vetting by Zrell. But I really don’t know

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Originally Posted by Sozz
He tells you that in the middle of Act I,
the first opportunity we have to kill the Emperor occurs after one of the chosen has been killed, weakening their power over the Elderbrain mumble mumble keeping the tadpoles in stasis, without total control we begin having psychic episodes related to our previously arrested transformation, there’s even a recently birthed mind-flayer in a windmill who has been transformed at this stage.

Even so, while you're correct, there is still no real reason to distrust him.
He has been proven to have protected the gang and that even when posing as the Dream Visitor, he has been telling the truth, even if not all of it (which is something he even says as the Visitor, that he can't tell much more due to the sensitive nature of the information). He has never lied about anything - even if you think withholding information counts as that, it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Sozz
the original command is brainwashing them into blind obedience to their new god, something we never underwent I’m not sure that needs to be reapplied. Though certainly the tadpoles probably link then to the hivemind they’ve been told is communing with the Absolute. And what is the purpose of Ascention?

If mere proximity to the relic were enough to do this to the chosen, there would be no hiding that from them throughout the acts, like during our vetting by Zrell. But I really don’t know

I am not sure what you are saying here. Could you please clarify as to what you are replying here?

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Sorry for not quoting the portion I was responding to, things get ungainly if you go to far, and unclear if you don't go far enough.

Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Sozz
How the prism works is unclear but we can ascertain from the bridge scene that the Absolute’s voice isn’t constant but comes in dramatic revelatory bursts, it is speculated that how we receive orders from the Absolute on the bridge is how others perceive our own commands when using the [illithid] . How Minthara reacts to our presence then could just be her realizing that her appeals for guidance have gone unanswered since being in our presence

If that were the case, then after
an order was completed, the infected would then regain some sense of sanity as now there is nothing holding them, not unlike how the players get to mess with NPCs they used their illithid powers on. However there is nothing that supports this.

Originally Posted by Sozz
the original command is brainwashing them into blind obedience to their new god, something we never underwent I’m not sure that needs to be reapplied. Though certainly the tadpoles probably link then to the hivemind they’ve been told is communing with the Absolute. And what is the purpose of Ascention?

If mere proximity to the relic were enough to do this to the chosen, there would be no hiding that from them throughout the acts, like during our vetting by Zrell. But I really don’t know

The part about ascension is just referring to what goes on at Moonrise Towers to some of the chosen. I haven't done a run siding with Ketheric far enough to know if you learn more about it.

About trusting our Guardian,
as far as I'm concerned there is very little that links the guardian to the artifact beyond his dubious claims, dubious because they are on the face of it misleading, purposely obfuscate who he is, his situation, and by extenstion is role in our predicatment. His only tactic to persuade us is a clumsy appeal to our emotional understanding, and whenever we question him on more substantive grounds...oh no they're attacking again farewelllllll! *I will always love you* *remember me when I'm gone*

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Originally Posted by Sozz
About trusting our Guardian,
as far as I'm concerned there is very little that links the guardian to the artifact beyond his dubious claims, dubious because they are on the face of it misleading, purposely obfuscate who he is, his situation, and by extenstion is role in our predicatment. His only tactic to persuade us is a clumsy appeal to our emotional understanding, and whenever we question him on more substantive grounds...oh no they're attacking again farewelllllll! *I will always love you* *remember me when I'm gone*

Based on your postings it is clear you don't trust and don't like him personally and that is ok. No reasons required if you feel that way.

But - he is shown to help and protect us, we do show symptoms for turning into a mind flayer and he stops it. And he saved us from the fall - if you think he is lying - who do you think saved us? The Absolute and her followers want us dead (as seen if you meet the deadly injured guy and his siblings). And we see before the goblin camp that it is the artifact that protects the group. This is a link from the artifact to the dream guardian. And later we get more connections (like him warning us, you hear the dream guardians voice and then he moves the artifact back to you -> but this is e.g. in the monastery / creche so basically act 2).

And yes, he is hiding behind his appearance and it is especially clear if you have a male guardian and talk to gale, who speaks about a female one. So there is some hiding / deception on his part (which is later explained why he did it - because people normally don't trust mind flayers).

But what he tells you is true (e.g. he tells you he wants to be free. That is true. Also some things more like from past view - he was an adventurer, he had a tadpole in his head...). He isn't really lying, more lying by omission and not telling everything, which again, is understandable.

And he is in parallel protecting the player character + group and fighting off the honor guard and then talking to you (and your companions - at least in the beginning) - so everything at the same time. I think it is understandable that he won't have a lot of time for a chat and he doesn't want to tell you everything because he needs you to trust him first - and to be able to trust YOU. He was stabbed in the back by his former lover (Ansur tried to "mercy" kill him while he was asleep). He needs allies, he can't do it alone. He uses his natural abilities to achieve his goal - and this goal alignes with the players (in a good ending at least).

I also think people are very harsh to him for things that our companions do as well - like Astarion - he is manipulative too. He tries to manipulate to make you his ally, just like dream guardian/Emperor does. He also tries to hide what he is at first - out of good reasons too.

In the end, we see we can trust the Emperor and even if we used tadpoles / astral tadpole it is reversed in the end. No harm done.

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I just want to jump in quickly with few details that OP has mistaken on the original post, just to make it more precise.

Ansur's death was not sudden, at least that is not what Ansur says. It seems Ansur and the Emperor had a talk and a back and forth under the Fortress (Emperor trying to convince Ansur that he was FINE and it was GREAT being illithid), and Ansur felt like he had to kill the Emperor for the sake of the city and for the sake of Balduran himself. They fought, Ansur lost.

Gortash is sold off by his parents (who are cobblers and needed money) to Raphael when he was a kid. The original post makes it seem like he was sold to Raphael when he was already into politics, which came much later. In fact, he first started smuggling infernal enhanced items as an arms dealer, and from there spread into many branches of businesses (including innovations, that led to the Steel Watchers later on) and politics afterwards.

I also have a doubt, that I'm not sure anyone picked on:

1. There are some documents in the Shar enclave in Baldurs Gate that mention a group of people from there going on a mission to steal the Astral Prism from the Nautiloid for Shar. There are several names/roles and the last one is Shadowheart/healer. Is there anymore to this? Was it just a random heist for Viconia?

2. Karlach seems to board the nautiloid while it traverses the hells. She is being pursued by Wyll who sees her enter the nautiloid and goes after her. Playing as Karlach, you don't wake up in a pod, but on the ground beside a dead mindflayer that you clearly killed. But she does get tadpoled. How? When? I mean, there had to be someone to put the tadpole into her eye and I assume the dead illithid wasn't the one. Also hard to imagine how to do it with her running around fighting in the nautiloid. Is there more info on this?

3. Then there is the general ideal that the companions were somehow chosen to bear the special tadpoles. I would understand that the special tadpoles were put on those who were "pre-selected" somehow (abducted intentionally), but how would it work for companions that oopsied into the nautiloid?


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Originally Posted by Cawyden
Originally Posted by Sozz
About trusting our Guardian,
as far as I'm concerned there is very little that links the guardian to the artifact beyond his dubious claims, dubious because they are on the face of it misleading, purposely obfuscate who he is, his situation, and by extenstion is role in our predicatment. His only tactic to persuade us is a clumsy appeal to our emotional understanding, and whenever we question him on more substantive grounds...oh no they're attacking again farewelllllll! *I will always love you* *remember me when I'm gone*

Based on your postings it is clear you don't trust and don't like him personally and that is ok. No reasons required if you feel that way.

But - he is shown to help and protect us, we do show symptoms for turning into a mind flayer and he stops it. And he saved us from the fall - if you think he is lying - who do you think saved us? The Absolute and her followers want us dead (as seen if you meet the deadly injured guy and his siblings). And we see before the goblin camp that it is the artifact that protects the group. This is a link from the artifact to the dream guardian. And later we get more connections (like him warning us, you hear the dream guardians voice and then he moves the artifact back to you -> but this is e.g. in the monastery / creche so basically act 2).

And yes, he is hiding behind his appearance and it is especially clear if you have a male guardian and talk to gale, who speaks about a female one. So there is some hiding / deception on his part (which is later explained why he did it - because people normally don't trust mind flayers).

But what he tells you is true (e.g. he tells you he wants to be free. That is true. Also some things more like from past view - he was an adventurer, he had a tadpole in his head...). He isn't really lying, more lying by omission and not telling everything, which again, is understandable.

And he is in parallel protecting the player character + group and fighting off the honor guard and then talking to you (and your companions - at least in the beginning) - so everything at the same time. I think it is understandable that he won't have a lot of time for a chat and he doesn't want to tell you everything because he needs you to trust him first - and to be able to trust YOU. He was stabbed in the back by his former lover (Ansur tried to "mercy" kill him while he was asleep). He needs allies, he can't do it alone. He uses his natural abilities to achieve his goal - and this goal alignes with the players (in a good ending at least).

I also think people are very harsh to him for things that our companions do as well - like Astarion - he is manipulative too. He tries to manipulate to make you his ally, just like dream guardian/Emperor does. He also tries to hide what he is at first - out of good reasons too.

In the end, we see we can trust the Emperor and even if we used tadpoles / astral tadpole it is reversed in the end. No harm done.

I don’t disagree that the party and the Emperor are in a mutually beneficial relationship. That isn’t the same as being trustworthy. Our symptoms occur through use of the tadpole, I think you learn from Omeluun that the stasis the tadpoles are in ends whenever you use them. With this in mind, I don’t know if the Emperor is actually stopping our transformation, like I said it’s an unverifiable claim, but he is stopping us from being thralls to the Elderbrain.
The Emperor needs us because he wants us to be his factotum in the real world. Him helping us is not him puttIng his trust in us. The same can be said of Astarion except that you are given many more opportunities to expand and influence that relationship.

When I say there is nothing linking the Emperor to the artifact I’m not saying that he isn’t controlling Orpheus’s powers, that’s made clear…much later. But for the first Act there is only the insinuation that our dream guardian is connected to the artifact. An insinuation that doesn’t benefit from his numerous lies of omission.
I don’t know how the scene at the goblin camp connects the relic with the guardian, it may connect the guardian with the relic as much as it connects the relic to Shadowheart.
He does nothing to garner our trust, a relationship that people in other threads already complain is railroaded into this dynamic.

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I hadn't put all of this together myself but the timeline of the game was troubling me more and more, starting in Act 2. It really seems unarguable that the insertion of the Emperor character just borks the narrative, possibly beyond repair.

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Originally Posted by jono11
I hadn't put all of this together myself but the timeline of the game was troubling me more and more, starting in Act 2. It really seems unarguable that the insertion of the Emperor character just borks the narrative, possibly beyond repair.

I don't think so. It mostly doesn't fit the cinematic but if they would change it (maybe in a later definite edition) it would already help a lot. And there are other open questions and issues with the timeline that aren't tied to the Emperor (the whole Shadowland/Curse topic). But of course - they did a late rewrite (although the Emperors VA said he came in 2021 or so which doen't sound so late so maybe the Emperor in some form already existed but they changed Daisy to Guardian and tied it to the Emperor later) and that shows. There wasn't simply enough time to clean everything up (including the cinematic) with a late change. So I hope they correct things in a later edition and I don't think they need to rewrite the whole game to make it work.

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I don't think this discussion should continue in this thread - this is about the timeline not if we can trust the Emperor. But just to give you a final response:

Originally Posted by Sozz
I don’t disagree that the party and the Emperor are in a mutually beneficial relationship. That isn’t the same as being trustworthy. Our symptoms occur through use of the tadpole, I think you learn from Omeluun that the stasis the tadpoles are in ends whenever you use them. With this in mind, I don’t know if the Emperor is actually stopping our transformation, like I said it’s an unverifiable claim, but he is stopping us from being thralls to the Elderbrain.
The Emperor needs us because he wants us to be his factotum in the real world. Him helping us is not him puttIng his trust in us. The same can be said of Astarion except that you are given many more opportunities to expand and influence that relationship.

He DOES STOP our transformation as you can see in the one night cutscene that everyone has symptoms and La'zel tries to kill you and then you have the dream and the guardian does something and next day you are better. How is this an unverifiable claim?

As said before - if he wasn't the one saving us from the fall - who do you think did it?

If he would only protect you from becoming a thrall then by your logic/understanding using of the tadpole powers should transform the characters into a mind flayer anyway. But that doesn't happen in game so this is not true - he does prevent our transformation - the game shows us this.

If you trust him to the end you see that he was indeed trustworthy and using the tadpole powers have no negative effect on you aside from the one optical change from the tad pole that he told you about before taking it.

Now yes, we don't have all this information in act 1 but why would we? It is actually the fun in not knowing what is happening (unless you are like me and like to spoil yourself to plan your playthroughs of course).

And yes, you can see it with the chosen 3 - working together doesn't mean you trust each other. Same with the Emperor - you as player can decide to trust him or not. And depending how you react to him he will trust you or not (you can later after the deal with Raphael when he asked what happened ask him to trust you and to don't ask further and he will do that). He does have different dialog lines if you do not trust him and tell him this, or even tried to kill him. But he is still forced to work with you so he tries to make it work anyway. Like you are stuck with him. There aren't much more fleshed out opportunities because he was a late rewrite, we shouldn't forget this. Like Halsin - you can't influence him either.


Originally Posted by Sozz
When I say there is nothing linking the Emperor to the artifact I’m not saying that he isn’t controlling Orpheus’s powers, that’s made clear…much later. But for the first Act there is only the insinuation that our dream guardian is connected to the artifact. An insinuation that doesn’t benefit from his numerous lies of omission.
I don’t know how the scene at the goblin camp connects the relic with the guardian, it may connect the guardian with the relic as much as it connects the relic to Shadowheart.
He does nothing to garner our trust, a relationship that people in other threads already complain is railroaded into this dynamic.

At the goblin camp you learn that the artifact protects you and in your first dream with the visitor you learn that the visitor is protecting you. This is the link. Who else would protect you?

Shadowheart is only tied in the very beginning to the artifact in the way that she thinks it is important and brings it with her from the Nautiloid. If you leave her behind in camp you can see that the artifact will be in your inventory so it is clear it isn't very tied to Shadowheart. And it doesn't take too long I think until she tells you she just stole it. It is also tied to Lae'zel as she recognizes it as being of Gith origin. We know both the artifact and the guardian are protecting us so it makes sense to suspect he is inside the artifact and we can see later (before visiting him there) that this is indeed the case.

I mean, if someone wants to believe something else why not but the hint is there.

He could explain everything from the start that is right but again - why would he? You rather have him in the first cutscene appearing as mind flayer and telling you he is inside the prism and controlling this gith and so on? And you think you would then trust him more? And what development would we then have throughout the game? It is not like you get all answers with everything else in the first act - same with the companions, the whole game is about learning what is going on and how to deal with it.

We are stuck with him (until the very late end) and he with us. True. For me personally it is not an issue but I get why people would have prefered other options like a cure and then being free to do what they like.

But how does he nothing to garner our trust? He protects us from turning into a mind flayer and becoming the absolutes slave. He warns us if he notices danger (like in the creche with the machine that is going to kill and not cure). What more do you want from him?

How would he even proof to you that he is sincere? Telling you everything in the first dream? I doubt that. People see he is a mind flayer and everything he says is directly taken as being manipulative. It is like "hey, you lied before and you are a mind flayer, I can never trust you again" which is fine but what you expect from him? Your companions lie too (directly and by omission and manipulate us) and this is fine but hey, they aren't mind flayers so it is ok I suppose? Yes we can influence them but then it is ok they did what they did? They had their reasons. And the Emperor? Same, he had his reasons. And he continues to work with us regardless how we treat him because he has no choice. There is no one else. So the player holds some power over him but can't get rid of him. And the other way around. He does react differently to us depending on how we treat him but yes, there isn't much influence possible (aside from asking him to trust us and he does). Hopefully they add more later as he was a late rewrite - we know that and this is why he lacks.

Look, we aren't going to change each others mind about this. You think he is not trustworthy and I think it is up to the player and the playthrough/role playing if they trust him or not. It is a game with choices. Trusting him or trusting him not lead nearly to the same ending - just minus/plus Orpheus.

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How do you know the Emperor stop our transformation? Because he told you?

It is Orpheus' power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, how on earth would a mindflayer(the Emperor) use mindflayer psionics, to steal a power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, to disrupt mindflayer psionics (Elderbrain)? Does that make sense to you? Because it does not make sense to me.

Seems like extremely lazy writing.

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Originally Posted by Surge90sf
How do you know the Emperor stop our transformation? Because he told you?

It is Orpheus' power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, how on earth would a mindflayer(the Emperor) use mindflayer psionics, to steal a power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, to disrupt mindflayer psionics (Elderbrain)? Does that make sense to you? Because it does not make sense to me.

Seems like extremely lazy writing.

From what I remember, if you go against the emperor at the start of act 3 in Astral Prism, everyone instantly turns into mindflayers. Supposedly, because emperor is no longer channelling Orpheus power.

The way I see it, I would completely scrap the Emperor and simply atribute to Orpheus having a passive aura that protects you, instead of contrived bullshit and the Guardian they came up with.

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I think the Emperor could work, but having the mindflayer actually start to care etc.. and on a personal note, either be a male or female based on your guardian. Just my thoughts...

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Originally Posted by Annoyed Player
Originally Posted by Surge90sf
How do you know the Emperor stop our transformation? Because he told you?

It is Orpheus' power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, how on earth would a mindflayer(the Emperor) use mindflayer psionics, to steal a power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, to disrupt mindflayer psionics (Elderbrain)? Does that make sense to you? Because it does not make sense to me.

Seems like extremely lazy writing.

From what I remember, if you go against the emperor at the start of act 3 in Astral Prism, everyone instantly turns into mindflayers. Supposedly, because emperor is no longer channelling Orpheus power.

The way I see it, I would completely scrap the Emperor and simply atribute to Orpheus having a passive aura that protects you, instead of contrived bullshit and the Guardian they came up with.


Yes, please.

I cannot stand the space squid that is being forced on me. There must be an option to free Orpheus once you get an Orphic Hammer, then roll a persuasion check to convince him to help us take on the Elder Brain.

The Emperor is just channeling Orpheus's power, he has no way to resist or fight the Elder Brain himself without the Orpheus.

I mean, at this point I'll take any option to get rid of the squid.

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Originally Posted by Annoyed Player
Originally Posted by Surge90sf
How do you know the Emperor stop our transformation? Because he told you?

It is Orpheus' power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, how on earth would a mindflayer(the Emperor) use mindflayer psionics, to steal a power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, to disrupt mindflayer psionics (Elderbrain)? Does that make sense to you? Because it does not make sense to me.

Seems like extremely lazy writing.

From what I remember, if you go against the emperor at the start of act 3 in Astral Prism, everyone instantly turns into mindflayers. Supposedly, because emperor is no longer channelling Orpheus power.

The way I see it, I would completely scrap the Emperor and simply attribute to Orpheus having a passive aura that protects you, instead of contrived bullshit and the Guardian they came up with.

That entire sequence is very vague. Because if you don't escape to the astral plane in X rounds you turn regardless of the Emperor "protecting you".

After that you can kill the Emperor and you do not turn until you exit the astral plane. Which does not make sense on any level;
- why can I not just stay in the Astral plane and go back into the material at a distance where the elder brain does not have influence.
- Why can I not talk to Orpheus after killing the Emperor? Surely he would help me if I vow to free him? Or I could channel his power myself, which would make much more sense than a mindflayer doing it for reasons explained in my previous post.
- Why were we turning before escaping to the astral plane, but after a chat with the Emperor all of a sudden there is no problem anymore? Yes you can make excuses for this, but none that do not come across as lazy (shortcut) writing.

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Originally Posted by Surge90sf
Originally Posted by Annoyed Player
Originally Posted by Surge90sf
How do you know the Emperor stop our transformation? Because he told you?

It is Orpheus' power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, how on earth would a mindflayer(the Emperor) use mindflayer psionics, to steal a power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, to disrupt mindflayer psionics (Elderbrain)? Does that make sense to you? Because it does not make sense to me.

Seems like extremely lazy writing.

From what I remember, if you go against the emperor at the start of act 3 in Astral Prism, everyone instantly turns into mindflayers. Supposedly, because emperor is no longer channelling Orpheus power.

The way I see it, I would completely scrap the Emperor and simply attribute to Orpheus having a passive aura that protects you, instead of contrived bullshit and the Guardian they came up with.

That entire sequence is very vague. Because if you don't escape to the astral plane in X rounds you turn regardless of the Emperor "protecting you".

After that you can kill the Emperor and you do not turn until you exit the astral plane. Which does not make sense on any level;
- why can I not just stay in the Astral plane and go back into the material at a distance where the elder brain does not have influence.
- Why can I not talk to Orpheus after killing the Emperor? Surely he would help me if I vow to free him? Or I could channel his power myself, which would make much more sense than a mindflayer doing it for reasons explained in my previous post.
- Why were we turning before escaping to the astral plane, but after a chat with the Emperor all of a sudden there is no problem anymore? Yes you can make excuses for this, but none that do not come across as lazy (shortcut) writing.

Which is exactly my point. Act 3 is a mess. Emperor being Balduran seems more like a lie, to make characters trust him, not actual thing. It also adds nothing to the game.

If the Emperor didn’t exist I don’t think the story would be damaged, if anything it would be better. Picture this:

-Daisy wants us to use tadpoles, we refuse, but they start tempting/tormenting our characters.
-We get to act 3, but instead of Emperor we meet Orpheus honor guard, as the field weakens, leading us to Astral Prism.
-They explain to us that it’s Orpheus, who protected us by close proximity and ask us to help their Leader.
-This leads to Raphael being more than a sidequest.

Overall, I just stopped playing the game in Act 3 because of the sheer amount of problems

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Originally Posted by Surge90sf
Originally Posted by Annoyed Player
Originally Posted by Surge90sf
How do you know the Emperor stop our transformation? Because he told you?

It is Orpheus' power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, how on earth would a mindflayer(the Emperor) use mindflayer psionics, to steal a power that disrupts mindflayer psionics, to disrupt mindflayer psionics (Elderbrain)? Does that make sense to you? Because it does not make sense to me.

Seems like extremely lazy writing.

From what I remember, if you go against the emperor at the start of act 3 in Astral Prism, everyone instantly turns into mindflayers. Supposedly, because emperor is no longer channelling Orpheus power.

The way I see it, I would completely scrap the Emperor and simply attribute to Orpheus having a passive aura that protects you, instead of contrived bullshit and the Guardian they came up with.

That entire sequence is very vague. Because if you don't escape to the astral plane in X rounds you turn regardless of the Emperor "protecting you".

After that you can kill the Emperor and you do not turn until you exit the astral plane. Which does not make sense on any level;
- why can I not just stay in the Astral plane and go back into the material at a distance where the elder brain does not have influence.
- Why can I not talk to Orpheus after killing the Emperor? Surely he would help me if I vow to free him? Or I could channel his power myself, which would make much more sense than a mindflayer doing it for reasons explained in my previous post.
- Why were we turning before escaping to the astral plane, but after a chat with the Emperor all of a sudden there is no problem anymore? Yes you can make excuses for this, but none that do not come across as lazy (shortcut) writing.

I do think those issues, while not the best explained, have pretty good, logical explanations. Some of them at least.

- You're not actually in the Astral Plane really. You're in a pocket of Astral Plane that specifically exists within the prism. So we're limited to going in and out of the prism and can't use it to just travel elsewhere.

- There's actually no good reason we can't side with Orpheus from this point, really. I think the Emperor's explanation that Orpheus sees us as mindflayers and thus hates makes sense, but there's nothing dictating that that has to be the case. Though Ithink us suddenly being able to just channel Orpheus' power would be pretty dumb andrandom.

- This last issue is I feel the most clear and obvious. We were turning because the Emperor was caught in a serious skirmish with the honor guard and they had him seriously on the ropes, the implication being that he'd have lost if not for us. So he wasn't exactly able to devote his focus to protecting us, which probably is harder when we're so close to the brain, which is also struggling for freedom now we have one of the gems. Once the battle isover and he can focus, no more danger of changing. For all the issues with the game's third act, this particular plot point genuinely seemed pretty self-evident to me and makes perfect sense.

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Regarding the Emperor introduction sequence, I would think that as soon as we enter the Astral Prism that we would well... be in the Astral Prism, so defeating the Emperor then and there probably shouldn't be a Bad Ending trigger or at least a different one where we are trapped in the Astral Prism forever (unless we could side with the honor guard and they could break the Orphic rocks like Orpheus seems to imply).

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Why does the Emperor even need us to defend the prison? That guy apparently can solo a full grown dragon.

Speaking of Ansur, when did he die? Why did no one notice till now that he is dead?

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Why does the Emperor even need us to defend the prison? That guy apparently can solo a full grown dragon.

Manipulation? Making the MC/player think that they hold some power and that he (the Emperor) isn't as powerful. Most likely answer, the writer didn't think much about it.

Originally Posted by Ixal
Speaking of Ansur, when did he die? Why did no one notice till now that he is dead?

Listen buddy, you're asking too many questions lol. Who knows. Mighty dragon disappears, people might think its none of their business/busy with their own lives. The actual answer...the writer didn't think too much about it. (that's the answer to a lot of things in this game wink )

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