Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The insane timeline of the main plot (do I even need to tell you that it's spoilers?)

Though I'm open to the possibility that isn't true of whatever function eating brains does for a Mind-Flayer

If you choose to become a mindflayer, the narrator mentions how you are now free to manipulate your friends and former companions. You can choose not to do so, but that the thought even occured shows (imo) that being a mindflayer comes with some... let's call them alignment changes. When I heard that line, I suddenly had more understanding towards why the Emperor acted the way he did. The Design at all costs (not The Grand Design in his case, but the Emperor had some very clear goals and he let NOTHING stand in the way of those goals. One of them was to survive, which is why he killed Ansur and why he chose to join the Elder Brain when he was 100% sure that Orpheus would kill him. The Emperor manipulated Tav into thinking that Orpheus would be unreasonable and violent, but honestly I think he was just afraid that Orpheus would kill HIM for everything he had done to him. Not an unreasonable fear.

So they don't have souls? How come we can use Speak with Dead on them, then? (it calls the soul back to the body to answer questions)

He is set up to be a courageous, well-respected and much loved leader of the Gondorians. His key trait boils down to duty - he has a duty to his father, Gondor and to the Fellowship, to Frodo. However, that duty goes both ways, and the One Ring exploits that. As the Fellowship travels, there are moments where it's clearly shown that Boromir is not being trustworthy when he's close to the ring - and the battle with the Uruk-Hai towards the tail end of the Fellowship, and Boromir's consequent death, is the result of that corruption. Note that there are many others that could possibly be tempted by the Ring, but the key difference between the rest of the Fellowship and Boromir is that Boromir's insecurity in his duty is very, VERY easily exploitable, while others, who would certainly get corrupted over time would need to spend much more time in the Ring's influence. It's a build-up with a brilliant payoff, cause and effect. If you remove the scenes with Boromir and the Ring before the battle with the Uruk-Hai, it comes off as if the plot just decided that Boromir needs to be evil for some time - and it also ruins Boromir's final acts and words to Aragorn as he bleeds out, as that redemption is simply never earned.

Bilbo Baggings is a hobbit that seemingly hasn't aged one bit ever since he returned from his adventures. At 118 years old, he still looks like he's in his 30s or 40s, despite the fact that he should be weak, frail and all grey since forever. This "preserving" effect was because he carried the One Ring with him. When he threw the ring away in his home and went on another adventure, the next time we see him with Frodo again (which was only a couple of weeks IIRC), Bilbo is already showing signs of aging. And by the time we see him at the end of Return of the King (and as far as I'm aware, the time difference between Gandalf arriving to Bilbo's birthday and Frodo meeting with Bilbo again was about 2-3 years), he has aged extremely.

The returning and referenced characters really seem like they want the player to embrace BG3 as a sequel to not only BG1-2 but also the Descent into Avernus module. I also think the discussion of the game as canonical is warranted. Dungeons and Dragons is an odd franchise when it comes to discussing canonicity, but it is one that is swayed a lot by popularity in the vein of money spent. With BG3 getting so much acclaim and glowing sales numbers, there is little doubt in my mind that it will anchor itself as part of the broad strokes canon of the Forgotten Realms.

It is the book "Clasped Book" in his room in Moonrise Towers, in the book shelf on the east side of the first door to his room (X= -126, Y= -180). I am sorry, I remembered it wrong - I checked it again and it doesn't say that he specifically ordered Durge to be there, just that Kressa Bonedaughter (Balthazars assistant necromancer) saved Durge (Durge is not named but apparantly in a Durge playthrough you can talk with Kressa and she was indeed working on Durge) and is fond of Durge and later in the section he complains that he shouldn't have allowed her to keep her "pet" and ever "since it was shipped onto one of the nautiloids to be deployed, she has been inconsolable" and is distracted. In the mindflayer colony below you can find a note from her speaking about her work and that she makes thralls but is forbidden to study them. "I need a new one, one that Balthazar doesn't know of. A creature of exceptional will, like my dear old pet, can keep fragments of its own mind while affected by the parasite."

So it isn't clear if it was on Balthazars order or not - he clearly wasn't happy that she was distracted by Durge so he had a motive to get rid of Durge (saying Durge will be a great fighter for the absolute). And as she says in her note, that Baltharzar shouldn't know about it if she had a new pet/thrall to study could imply that it was him with the order to get rid of Durge - so she is afraid he would remove her new pet too. If he was just a little unhappy with her but let her work regardless on her pet project she wouldn't have a good reason to keep it secret.

And it sounds like Durge might have been tadpoled by her - but it would be helpful if someone with a Durge playthrough (mine isn't far enough) could check if she says something about that. Because she is interested in studying thralls and she is speaking about Durge having still parts of its own mind despite having a parasite (see above).

Regarding no reaction by Balthazar - it seems like Ketheric gives no reaction to Durges too from what I have heard from others. Maybe bug/no time left/forgot about it...?

And yes, it is incredibly lucky that Durge ended on the SAME Nautiloid as the Emperor says many were sent to look for the prism but he found it first. So other Nautiloids were sent as well and Balthazar writes in his book (mentioned above) that Durge was shipped to ONE of the Nautiloids to be employed not THE Nautiloid to be deployed.

I wasn't trying to invalidate your point but just to add that there are several Nautiloids there. Because I did not see them but my Tav commented on it. So it is possible that people are wondering at the end where all the Nautiloids come from and at the end of act 2 they at least mention that they are there.

I was trying to give an explanation to why he would not show as Balduran. As you said, we only have what the game is showing and can't read the characters thoughts. And so we have to rely on speculation where we don't have a clear answer. And you and others are also speculating in this thread so I don't see the issue sharing my thoughts. I also never said he has gasps in his memories.

And there is proof that he doesn't miss his old BODY:

"As an illithid, I have far surpassed who I ever was before."

"Rare are those that would openly consider a partnership with a mind flayer. Even those who are on a part of becoming one. It's like I said before - I'm just like you." -> so basically his I AM LIKE YOU is not just I am a human like you but I AM A MINDFLAYER and you are about to become one...

"When I first escaped from the elder brain, I searched for a new vessel. But the longer I inhabited this one, the more it grew on me. I realized that returning to my former self would only impose limitations. Any adavantage I could gain by restoring my original appearance, I already had to hand in the form of magic and that humanoid shape you've come to know" (meaning the dream guardian).

So he doesn't miss his old body, even thinks being a mindflayer is better. He might still think about himself as Balduran. But we also need to keep in mind is that he is not a reliable source. He also tells us "You are not becoming a mindflayer, not while I'm around" as dream guardian and later he wants us to become half Illithid. He is manipulative, he wants us to be his allies, to help him breaking free of the elder brain.

Did you notice that in one dream he was wearing daisys old revealing clothing? He isn't daisy but there are still elements of him trying to be seductive or at least to make us like him, to bind us to him. And if that doesn't work he tries to threaten us (like with the memories of the Duke - I am still not sure if she really was a thrall or if he just showed us some fake "memory" to threaten us with the idea that he could make us a thrall and force us to do things). He decides what he shows us. And this might not what happened. And the Narrator isn't reliable either. I haven't had the dialog but from others I heard (but this still needs to be verified) that he even admits that he made Orpheus or/and the honor guard more menacing to give us more reason to ally with him.

Of course, he didn't think it through that appearing as different persons in the dreams (e.g. my Tav had a male dream guardian and I know Gale had a female one) would make the people more sceptical. Had he just showed up with the same appearance his "I am just an adventurer like you" would have been more believable.

- Orin betrays Durge, someplace unknown, likely the Temple of Bhaal as that is where a dead Durge is put on display if you play as any other origin.
- He is promptly forgotten about, Orin thinking that she killed Durge - either that or some unknown force, likely Bhaal, saved him.
- Magically, Durge stumbles their way along just enough to be kidnapped and tadpoled in the cinematic.

But now, the timeline is actually the following:
- Orin betrays Durge in Moonrise and she infects him with a tadpole.
- A couple hours later, he is found by Kressa who saved him to be used for her experiments with the tadpole.
- According to Kressa, Durge's mind is so special that despite the tadpole, they can have independent thoughts and retain their memory.
- Balthazar is annoyed that his assistant keeps getting distracted. He doesn't know who her "pet" is - he unknowningly orders Durge to be disposed of.
- Luckily, Durge is placed on the same Nautiloid as Emperor, and the same Nautiloid that is soon to steal the Astral Prism.

Soooo... Durge got tadpoled twice? Because, remember, the trailer is the same for every single origin - the person watching Lae'zel get tadpoled is also tadpoled. But surely, the tadpoling mind flayer must have known that Durge was already infected. So why place another tadpole in Durge? There was no reason to place a completely newly born Tadpole in Durge even if they were looking to make him a super soldier, as the only reason to absorb an existing tadpole is if it has gathered knowledge and experience from a previously infected person (aka. true souls).

It also means Orin has levels of stupid measured in the size of the biggest galaxies known to Man (and, she WAS before this as well, but this just confirms it even more). Here's the thing - don't play Durge, Durge is dead in Orin's bedchambers. Play Durge, she suddenly forgets to look into the dying body of her previous master having been kidnapped. I thought she treated murder as art? Surely, Durge would have been her greatest masterpiece. Let's assume that the roles are reversed - that Durge was to betray Orin. In that case, this would actually make sense, as Durge sees murder as the ultimate goal, and in his jealousy, he would have let Orin suffer in her final hours, leaving her to bleed out and completely forgetting about her afterwards. But that is just simply not what happens. Orin would have absolutely burned Moonrise to the ground in search of Durge. And what was the point in tadpoling Durge anyways? She was going to kill him regardless - the explanation of "well she's crazy and wanted to torture Durge" doesn't work because that is no longer Durge that she's torturing, that's the tadpole. She's just a plain and simple idiot and Bhaal should have fucking killed her.

On top of this, Durge was not under the influence of the initial tadpole put into her by Orin (at least not completely). Remember that the Brain thought of Durge as it's master, completely willingly mind you. Therefore, the moment Durge got betrayed and had a tadpole put into him, the Brain MUST have been made aware of what just happened. The turnaround from "My Master" to "Disgraced Master" and "Pawn in the Grand Design" was fucking SECONDS. What is the point in betraying Durge so quickly? The Brain felt genuine gratitude and actually revered Durge, so why toss him under the bus so quickly? Wouldn't the Brain be outraged? Why exactly is an assassination ATTEMPT enough to make the Brain think so poorly of Durge? This is just insanely premature for a bloody Elder Brain of all things, entities that are literal biological quantum supercomputers. And remember, there was a brief period of time where a Netherstone wasn't active, even if only minutes given the murder attempt happened just a couple minutes away from where the Brain was located. So why not break free in rage? And to return to the beginning of this paragraph, what exactly were the Brain's intentions with letting Durge retain a sense of free will, but at the same time later in the game bombard the Durge with orders to "follow her Chosen" and orders to transform into a Mind Flayer??????????????? "Grand Design"... Grand Idiocy more like.

I am actually willing to let the luck portion of that timeline go regarding the Nautiloid - I have said before that the greatest strings of lucks are often what generates mankind's greatest stories, and that incredibly lucky events happen all the time, so whatever, with this timeline it's actually way, WAY more plausible, if not believeable.

Ketheric has Durge Amnesia for no single reason, but I didn't consider Balthazar until later into this discussion. I've even complained about this in my very first post on these forums criticising the Evil Durge playthrough.

Emperor/Balduran as a character that I am not willing to slip any speculation past, as there is barely anything we can claim as a concrete fact about him without annihilating his character. And yes, you haven't said he has gaps in his memories, that is something I brought up to reinforce the fact that he should, even if at the back of his mind, keep to his Balduran persona for when it becomes useful. And as far as I'm aware, most playable and creatable characters are Baldurians who live(d) in Baldur's Gate, so you'd think they'd be familiar, if not enthralled by the stories of Balduran, legendary adventurer and founder of Baldur's Gate. Apologies if I seemed to lash out against you - that wasn't my intention.

When you first get to see him in his mind flayer form, you can actually cast detect thoughts, and verify that EVERYTHING he is saying is sincere and true. He has always advocated for illithid powers, as you quoted him, and as I mentioned in the OP, becoming an illithid was actually a giant win in his book. From the very get-go however, he should have appeared as Balduran and said something along the lines of "Another adventurer in the same boots as I was (actually giving the "I am just like you" line a meaning) - infected and powerless against the inevitable. My name is Balduran, and I am here to help you on your quest. The artefact you hold neutralizes the effects of Ceremorphosis, and I believe we can take advantage of that. These parasitic creatures are vessels for knowledge, experience and power. No doubt that on this path, you will stumble into many infected warriors. Extract their powers, and use them to your benefit. You may think that I am nothing more than illithid illusions, or you might think whatever else, but I will tell you this: keep that artefact close. It will be you and yours's salvation, and maybe, it yet be mine."

Of course, give it to an actual writer who crafts dialogue better than I do, but that should be the takeaway. That already establishes a strong foundation for Emperor/Balduran's character, instead of trying to be everything at once - a person you can trust, a person you shouldn't trust, a person promising you power, a person who you can be friends with, your saviour, your slaver... your lover? Right now, Emperor is a bloody ping-pong.

Edit2: You could even make it so that the Durge is special in that they don't need the Astral Prism to stay sane as the Brain goes out of its way to help Durge on his journey, trying to reunite with its master for an especially evil ending. There could be a real big conflict between Emperor and the Brain, putting an amnesiac Durge into an incredibly difficult circumstance. Given that'd require a significant rewrite and tons of dev work, but after playing games like DAO, different outcomes based on what origin you play is a standard I adopted.

and it's "ability" to block out hivemind communications. As we know, the Prism houses Orpheus, the sole remaining entity that has this ability. Now, it is claimed several times that the Prism has an "aura" that has a cumulative effect the more you are around it, and a decreasing effect the more you distance yourself from it. However, there is one entity who can choose NOT to send out hivemind comms - which is different from disrupting it - the Brain itself. This is also something that the Brain admits to have done by releasing the Emperor from under it's grasp to be a pawn in the Grand Design.

Therefore, to sum it up, there are three ways to block hivemind comms:
- The aura of the Astral Prism ramping up.
- The Emperor using Orpheus's power with precision.
- The Brain letting certain individuals roam free on purpose.
However, I have argued in the OP that this isn't the case and that the Prism, in fact, does not have a radiating aura. I have recently been messaged by several people that I had this wrong, so I would like to list key examples of who/what is blocking out comms in key plot moments, with what purpose, and why it's one big plot hole.

1: The player character. In the first Dream Sequence, the Emperor finally managed to extend Orpheus's protection to you. He has confirmed that you were just about to transform, which much later on is confirmed as he claims that the order for your transformation has been given thousand times over. While the netherese-touched tadpoles are intended to induce a state of suspended ceremorphosis, there is also nothing to suggest that the suspension must occur with these tadpoles. Why there is nothing to suggest this is not clear - one could assume that it'd be an attempt at throwing off any potential investigators, but this is pure assumption with no evidence to back it up. Note that these tadpoles are capable of instantly transforming their victims into mind flayers unlike normal tadpoles, which take roughly a week to do so. Again, nothing to confirm that this instant transformation can only happen after said week has passed, but we can assume that instantly transforming just after an infestation is impossible. What we can confirm though, as there have been several cases during the plot, is that suspended ceremorphosis does not activate until a few hours after being tadpoled - key examples here are the players, origins and Duke Ravengard.

2: Minthara. After raiding the Grove and spending the night with her at the altar, she finds herself worried and panicked that she can no longer hear the Absolute's voice. Her immediate suspicion is that the Player is responsible for this, and so chooses to distance herself. After thinking things over, she decides to end your life, yet at the last moment she can once more hear the voice of the Absolute, who then tells her that it is up to MInthara if they find the Player worthy of Her. Now, it is easy to piece together that the story is implying the fact that after several hours of having been together with the Player, Minthara fell under the protection of the Prism, which is why she couldn't hear the Absolute, and once she distanced herself, the connection was restored. The protection never activates again however, despite being near the Player again for some time. Later on, if you recruit her, she is protected once more, this time by Emperor.

3: The player character (once more). At the beginning of Act3, if you choose to kill Emperor upon first contact, you get a game over screen where you become a thrall to the Brain as the extended protection of Orpheus is lost.

4: Minsc. In his case, we witness Emperor's extension live, and Minsc takes some time to gather his bearings as soon as the disruption happens, not unlike Minthara.

To make it incredibly simple to understand: cases where Emperor/Orpheus steps in to protect others are - with one exception in the next paragraph - always consitent in universe. Cases where it comes down to whether the Brain let someone go or the passive "aura" of the Prism is what was responsible are extremely foggy, even with the confirmation by the Brain itself that Emperor was let go willingly. Here's the thing: in example three, you have been under the protection of the Prism for days, weeks, maybe months. And sure, it was Emperor who channeled the power, but if the Prism has an aura, then why would it protect Minthara after several hours together and why wouldn't it protect the Player? There is no reason to believe in any hypothetical emanating auras as the Brain can toy around with whoever they wish, and point three very explicitly confirms that Orpheus's power must be wielded with precision, else it won't work at all. There is also nothing to suggest or confirm that Emperor directly reached out to protect Minthara in Act1, which muddies the waters even more.

There is one slight inconsistency with Orpheus's power, and that is if you decide to free Orpheus. Once Emperor leaves, his protection should have fallen and we should have gotten a game over screen - just like at the start of Act3. And had that happened, he would have been correct in all his worries and all his warnings that there is no point in freeing Orpheus. Yet there is a period of time between Emperor leaving and Orpheus being freed when the power is not channeled, which is interesting because if you tell Orpheus that you want to become a Mind Flayer, the very millisecond the protection drops, you are turned into one.

Ultimately, once we run into an inconsistency, the only explanation is defaulting to the claim that "it must have been the Brain", which in itself is simply not a reasonable one, especially when it goes against it's own interests.