Originally Posted by tsurugi
[quote=starcat]Isn't the action of killing the grove part of what makes her a complex character though? Without making that difficult and/or uncomfortable choice she loses a very impactful moment that helps the player understand both the horrible situation she's been put in and just how strong the influence of the Absolute can be. If someone as terrifyingly strong as Minthara can be manipulated it doesn't really look good for a lot of other people in the game.

I'm struggling to understand why so many people seem to associate multiple paths that lead to the same conclusion as being somehow more developed. It seems more like it waters down the character and gives Tav even more main character syndrome (which is rarely fun for anyone because it makes for less flexible rp) if they can just convince anyone of anything. Part of what makes Minthara so good (and the Drow lore in general imo) is her very black and white view of life.

Again I'm still fine with an alternative way to recruit her as long as it makes sense with the way she's already been written but it really bothers me to see so many people talk down on the current way to recruit her.
Not really, it makes her circumstance more complex which in the specific narrative BG3 has makes it all the more weird that you don't get to interact with a potential companion in the same circumstance as you more until you've chosen something that no one ever has a reason to choose beyond "druid mean druid die" or "drow hot". If you could avoid seeing that fight in front of the grove and found the goblins first instead THAT could make it a lot more interesting because then you aren't started off with the strong first impression that goblins are the aggressors in the conflict. As-is helping her find the grove isn't an interesting or complex choice, it's just (bafflingly) a requirement to romance her with all kinds of messed up connotations surrounding the circumstance of the romance initiation that the writers tried to ignore entirely. And to top it off it just locks you out of a truly MASSIVE amount of game content without giving anything to fill the gap other than her own dialogue which prior to Hotfix 5 was a bad joke and even now isn't ideal because her romance is still a mess and Karlach still takes huge collateral damage even if you recruit Minthara the neutral way.

Because it doesn't water anything down. It adds more options for roleplay so that you don't have to be taken (at least not as far) out of how you want your Tav to be. Minthara's recruitment allows the least roleplay of anyone, including for thoughtfully evil Tavs. Halsin himself is totally fine with you leaving the grove a lifeless hole in the ground as long as you did it yourself despite his clear dedication to the place so why are Minthara's recruitment requirements so strictly centered around the tieflings being killed no matter what if our presence disrupts the mind control and she herself calls you out for for it later if you led her to the grove? It's thematically self-contradictory, and only becomes less fitting the more you get to know her exactly because she's so richly written once she's in the party.

And I know I always start off talking about the circumstantial writing around her recruitment having a lot of gaps that need filling but I'm in the same boat. I think the writing in its current state is at least fine enough to not need to be changed (even if the goblin party scene with her is wildly messed up with any amount of hindsight). What needs to be changed is how the game counts her as dead if you knock her out. She doesn't need to be compatible with fully recruiting Halsin, the game just needs to carry her forward to the Moonrise scene if you knock her out and saving her after that will be what commits you to her recruitment and Halsin leaving. It's by far the least work and accommodates the baseline of what everyone wants. That way she gets essentially no content changes, and the people that want to recruit her on the Good path have a chance to.

Last edited by Auric; 19/09/23 05:24 PM.