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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Here is an interesting reflection on the canonization of Abdel Adrian, from the author who wrote that book... (I kinda love this guy. Not for writing that infamous book, but for writing this... many years later) Let’s go back a bit to the beginning.
BioWare was working on a computer RPG, under license from Wizards of the Coast, set in the Forgotten Realms world. The buzz started to get pretty positive really early and the idea was floated by someone I’ve since forgiven that we should publish a novelization of the game. Because I’m a total moron, I participated in a blind proposal process in hopes of being the person to write it. Because of reasons unknown, my proposal was picked and I was assigned to write the book. That was somewhere around Halloween and they needed the first draft by Christmas.
A “long” book wasn’t going to happen, so though I don’t remember what the assigned word count was, it was less than the average 90,000 for other Forgotten Realms novels. So I went in knowing it was going to be short and though I didn’t really hope it would be bad, I did start the process with that same sense of the freedom of low expectations.
First of all, this was a novelization, so the story was (more or less—it’s complicated, but for our purposes . . .) all spelled out for me. Gary Gygax, Ed Greenwood, and everyone else who came after them had already built the world, and so all of the up-front work was done. I just had to write it up.
I also went in comfortable with the fact that all I needed to show up with around Christmas was a first draft. That draft would then be read and vetted not just by my editor at Wizards of the Coast but by someone at the game studio, and together they would make sure I was in line with the spirit and the letter of the game story, and so on.
So I did my best with what time and story material I had and went for done—not for good, not for long, just . . . done.
And I was done on time, and the book went to my editor and someone—I have no idea to this day who and still think it might have been no one—and after a few weeks I got notes back from my editor, and nothing from anyone involved in the game except some kind of vague, “It’s fine.”
I was pretty sure it wasn’t fine.
After all, at that point there wasn’t even a beta version of the game to play. I was working from a very early story document and that’s it.
But it was “fine,” and a production deadline loomed before us, and almost as if we planned it, the second the book went to press we got a pre-beta version of the game that crashed too early on to tell how off the mark I was, but gave me just enough negative feedback to know I was in trouble in Chapter 1 . . .
Then the book came out to a flurry of online hate, all directed at me, the worst writer of all time, who had clearly never bothered to even play the game and . . . My short bad book wasn’t revised into a longer better book. It stayed short and bad, and though it sold a crap ton of copies, at least by today’s standards, it remains most Forgotten Realms fans’ least favorite FR book, and something of an albatross around my neck.
Conscious of the fact that I may have just terrified you out of ever pursuing Dani Shapiro’s advice to start out writing a short bad book, I still think you ought to at least try it. Just, for Bhaal’s sake, make it better, if not longer, before it’s actually published!
—Philip Athans Right then, duly stricken from the record hehe
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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Re: Is canon important for BG3?
1. Information on previously existing locations, characters, and events that occur in BG3 are now considered canon enough to rewrite all related wiki pages. Until it is retconned, BG3 is quasi-gospel to the lore.
2. In spite of some confusing things here and there, the game does, for the most part, fit quite neatly into the established canon and history. The game itself draws from established canon and rarely violates it.
3. The greatest motivation of all: Establishing consistent lore is fun, whether it’s Warhammer, Elder Scrolls, or DND. It’s especially fun here because this isn’t some DM’s pocket universe, but an officially licensed product.
4. Just as not all of the original games were canon after 20 years, so too can we expect bits and pieces of BG3 not to stay canon. However, the general thrust of the adventure will remain.
—————
Also, for as much as people hate Abdel Adrian, it really does seem like Athans was set up to fail.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2020
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So firstly, regarding the Philip Athans quote, damn, poor guy. He didn't so much write a bad book as he wrote a draft that really hould never have been presented to the public, and given he couldn't actually get access to the game, he really never had a chance. Secondly I have another timeline question. I was under the impression that the founding of Baldur's Gate was like, 100s of years in the past or something like that, and Balduran was a human. So I'm kind of confused by the fact that he apparently stumbled upon the mindflayers in Moonrise Tower. That implies that mindflayers were under there all throughout the time Kethric was doing his thing as a Sharran and as a selunite before that, and they were just never noticed.
There's nothing wrong with that sequence of events technically, but it just feels narratively... off. Like, the presence of the Hive there and the fact it had no impact on Kethric'swhole story as it was happening feels like a coincidence that should mean something more. That tower was the base of an evil army and before that the base of a very devout following of a good god, and was even visited by the emissary of said god. Those two ships passing in the night just feel... out of what somehow. It feels like the writers made Balduran's change happen at moonrise to connect events more, but the connection only strains credulity for no real reason. If it were up to me, I'd not have said where he was changed, he just became a mindflayer somewhere, it doesn't really matter where.
Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.
Speaking of that timeline
How is the Emperor even still alive? Mind Flayer are not immortal but live around 125 years, or 250 if they are an Ulitharid. But Balduran lived nearly 500 years ago.
Last edited by Ixal; 18/09/23 02:10 PM.
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.[/spoiler] Speaking of that timeline
How is the Emperor even still alive? Mind Flayer are not immortal but live around 125 years, or 250 if they are an Ulitharid. But Balduran lived nearly 500 years ago.
AAAAAAAHHHH this bothers me more than it should. So maybe Balduran got tadpoles as an old man, so around 1100-1180. Mindflayer Balduran makes it to 1300s at the latest, not 1400s. Then again, this Elder Brain is weird and ancient.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I was under the impression that the founding of Baldur's Gate was like, 100s of years in the past or something like that, and Balduran was a human. So I'm kind of confused by the fact that he apparently stumbled upon the mindflayers in Moonrise Tower. That implies that mindflayers were under there all throughout the time Kethric was doing his thing as a Sharran and as a selunite before that, and they were just never noticed.
There's nothing wrong with that sequence of events technically, but it just feels narratively... off. Luck is a HUGE element in this story. In no particular order, some of the luckiest ones are:
-Durge happening to be on the same Nautiloid that Thrall Emperor uses to steal the Astral Prism - remember that the Brain had nothing to do with placing Durge there, this was done by an uninfluenced Orin (remember: Durge becoming a pawn in the Design simply meant that the Brain simply looked upon it's disgraced master with disgust and would have used him as a lowly soldier or worker - at the very least there is nothing to suggest that the Brain somehow influenced Orin to place Durge in that Nautiloid)
-Emperor failing to tell everyone about the Mind Flayer colony once he was freed for the first time
-Ketheric develops Durge Amnesia and forgets he used to work together with him
-The Accelerated Grand Design documentation not being destroyed by Mephistopheles
-That dormant Mind Flayer colony just so happened to also house a dormant Elder Brain and at least one Nautiloid
-Emperor ending up with Durge and the rest of the origins could be either insanely lucky or (partially) intended by the Brain
-Durge somehow not dying to Orin's very much fatal blows
-Sharrans catching wind of the Astral Prism Heist is incredibly (un)lucky
-Emperor failing to appear as Balduran (aka himself) in Dream Visitor segments is incredibly unlucky
The thing is, extremely rare events happen ALL the time in real life. Just the other day, I was thinking how cool it'd be for one of my university classes to be cancelled. Lo and behold, as the class was coming up, we got a notification of cancellation as our professor suffered a road accident and he totaled his car (no one got hurt, by the way). This event allowed me to go out shopping with my mum, where we happened to run into some cans of Almdudler, something we haven't seen in a long, long time in our country, creating a satisfying payoff. Here is the mechanical workings of luck: things seem lucky because we don't know all the mechanical elements of how that event occured. When you are watching something in the third person, you of course see that the teacher had an accident and that Almdudler cans were supplied just a few days back. However, the person in the story experiencing them has blindspots to these events, therefore appearing as lucky. It is also important to know that most of mankind's greatest stories begin with an incredibly lucky chain of events. Just the right people showing up just at the right time with just the right amount of knowledge and resources to begin an exciting journey. However, even the third person will be frustrated by what they will experience as "luck" when the mechanical components of an event in the plot is not explained properly. Take Balduran for example - we all know he is a heroic adventurer. So why wouldn't he tell ANYONE that there is a dormant colony that needs to be purged? It is just so incredibly lucky that he chose never to think, acknowledge and consider such an action, which in turn allowed for the Absolute plot to occur many years later. It is frustrating to say the least, because how will the third person keep their suspension of disbelief alive if anything could occur at any point? Maybe the Brain just decides that once the Dead Three are gone, it will be all nice n cozy and they're gonna have a tea time with Durge and giggle at the absurdity of those idiots. But that would be incredibly jarring, because there is NOTHING that would ever suggest that the Brain would become subservient to the Durge again. Which is why, regardless if we're speaking of nitpicks or the largest of plot holes, I am an enthusiastic advocate for any and every game company to extend their QA to storytelling as well, and why I have written this timeline up. Also... Or maybe I'm just completely off on the Balduran timeline to begin with.[/spoiler] Speaking of that timeline
How is the Emperor even still alive? Mind Flayer are not immortal but live around 125 years, or 250 if they are an Ulitharid. But Balduran lived nearly 500 years ago.
AAAAAAAHHHH this bothers me more than it should. So maybe Balduran got tadpoles as an old man, so around 1100-1180. Mindflayer Balduran makes it to 1300s at the latest, not 1400s. Then again, this Elder Brain is weird and ancient.
I guess I can edit this info in to OP. Ouch. EDIT: I have also been made aware that Ketheric in the late 1300s and early 1400s used Aylin in the Shadowfell to create Dark Justiciars by having each and every one kill her (without the Spear of Night of course) - yet Aylin still claims that she hasn't been visited by anyone in a hundred years in Act2 (in 1492), including Balthazar with his Soul Cage. How does time work in the Shadowfell? Because if this question gets the right answer, that is the only way to actually be able to establish a proper chronological order of just exactly what on Earth happened over there. Now, I am currently not at my PC, so I can't hop in-game and check - I will do that once I'm around, but I'm just wondering if anyone can fact check this. Either the right answer to the question or Aylin completely lost her track of time, which is psychologically understandable, but we are also speaking of a demigod who never at any point showed any signs of psychological degragadion.
Last edited by ghettojesusxx; 18/09/23 03:47 PM.
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member
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Aylin could simply not count sharians (including Ketheric and Baltazar) for "anyone". She could mean "anyone sane" or "anyone decent".
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Luck is a HUGE element in this story. In no particular order, some of the luckiest ones are:
-Durge happening to be on the same Nautiloid that Thrall Emperor uses to steal the Astral Prism - remember that the Brain had nothing to do with placing Durge there, this was done by an uninfluenced Orin (remember: Durge becoming a pawn in the Design simply meant that the Brain simply looked upon it's disgraced master with disgust and would have used him as a lowly soldier or worker - at the very least there is nothing to suggest that the Brain somehow influenced Orin to place Durge in that Nautiloid)
-That dormant Mind Flayer colony just so happened to also house a dormant Elder Brain and at least one Nautiloid
-Emperor failing to appear as Balduran (aka himself) in Dream Visitor segments is incredibly unlucky
-> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers
-> There are acutally several Nautiloids in the Colony as when you arrive near the brain Tav says they just saw a fleet of Nautiloids leaving (I didn't see anything, was just a voice line from Tav). But all the Nautiloids in the end over Baldurs Gate have to come somehwere, so this would fit.
-> I think the Emperor not appearing as Balduran might simply be because he wanted to appear in a form that the origins/Tav finds trustworthy. So he appears in different forms for everyone. He could have appeared as Balduran but he isn't really attached to his old appearance anymore so he doesn't care because his real form is now being a mindflayer. And who knows if they would have believed him that he is Balduran as Balduran was likely thought to be lost/dead. Maybe this would even lead to being more sceptical of him.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Also that’s assuming he even knows what he looks like. Mindflayers sometimes retain certain memories but given that his brain was completely eaten by a worm I have strong doubts about him even really being the same person. He was before being turned but now he’s really just a worm that had freedom
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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-> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers There is another note in her husband's room that says he was jealous of Durge and recommended to Balthazar to ship him off, although from the note in Balthazar's room, it didn't seem like he needed any convincing.
Last edited by Chlamydia; 18/09/23 07:32 PM.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Aylin could simply not count sharians (including Ketheric and Baltazar) for "anyone". She could mean "anyone sane" or "anyone decent". This explanation doesn't work, as when you first approach Aylin in the Shadowfell, she says the following, and I quote:
"I have felt you coming. The first in a century. You, who have come to drive a dagger through my heart. You, who seek to claim the ultimate prize. Present your weapon, soldier. Plunge it into the Nightsong. I cannot stop you. But know this: I never forget a face."
Therefore, she does actually count Sharrans (and everyone else) as "anyone" because she accuses us of being Sharrans from the get-go - she thinks the player goes there to become a Dark Justiciar, which, given the fact that she has been killed hundreds and thousands of times by would-be Dark Justiciars, makes complete sense. -> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers Where exactly is this document? I went back in my saves (as I found nothing on Google aside a fucktonne of guides as to how to get into Balthazar's room, something I've already done) and I couldn't find any trace of information - I found Balthazar's personal notes 2 and 3 as I have before (sidenote: this also gave me the opportunity to re-read "Elder Brain Domination" again, where Ketheric hints that before the Crown was placed atop the Brain, the Bhaalists already had leadership struggles. However, this must not be related to Orin replacing Durge, as the replacement must have happened super late into the Absolute plot), but haven't found anything else that sheds any light on the period between Orin's betrayal and Durge waking up on the Nautiloid.
Nevertheless, my point still stands - it is INCREDIBLY fucking lucky that Durge ended up on that Nautiloid.
Edit: Now that I think about it - Balthazar prompts no reaction when he sees the Durge again in Act2. You'd think he'd have some sort of reaction given that they both worked together and apparently violated his body too. -> There are acutally several Nautiloids in the Colony as when you arrive near the brain Tav says they just saw a fleet of Nautiloids leaving (I didn't see anything, was just a voice line from Tav). But all the Nautiloids in the end over Baldurs Gate have to come somehwere, so this would fit. Again, that doesn't change the fact that it was incredibly lucky to have a dormant Mind Flayer colony survive for more than ten thousand years since the fall of the Illithid Empire (despite major construction work taking place in the local area, not to mention that the Githyanki would have for sure gone over all the Planes with a fine-tooth comb), and have it house an Elder Brain and Nautiloids. Had they had no Nautiloids to begin with, they would have needed significantly more time to prepare the Absolute plot. -> I think the Emperor not appearing as Balduran might simply be because he wanted to appear in a form that the origins/Tav finds trustworthy. So he appears in different forms for everyone. He could have appeared as Balduran but he isn't really attached to his old appearance anymore so he doesn't care because his real form is now being a mindflayer. And who knows if they would have believed him that he is Balduran as Balduran was likely thought to be lost/dead. Maybe this would even lead to being more sceptical of him. This is pure speculation. The Emperor in Act3 says that "I AM an adventurer, just like you, and that I wanted more, so I went to Moonrise". He NEVER once implies that he has gaps in his memories, nor do we as the third person get to look inside his head to piece together the puzzle. Therefore, the only correct interpretation is that he is simply choosing to discard his persona of Balduran, but the reasons as to why, and the reasons as to why he doesn't change his mind later on once he's in the Astral Prism or when talking with Stelmane is completely unknown.
Last edited by ghettojesusxx; 19/09/23 10:23 AM.
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member
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Mind flayers live up to about 125-135 years. Where does this come from? Mind Flayers usually don't die of old age, I doubt they age at all. Mind Flyer can evolve further to become a part of the Elder Brain - the base part or some additional alongside others. This is all from the BG3 lore, I don't know if some common DnD lore contradicts this.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Mind flayers live up to about 125-135 years. Where does this come from? Mind Flayers usually don't die of old age, I doubt they age at all. Mind Flyer can evolve further to become a part of the Elder Brain - the base part or some additional alongside others. This is all from the BG3 lore, I don't know if some common DnD lore contradicts this.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Mind flayers live up to about 125-135 years. Where does this come from? Mind Flayers usually don't die of old age, I doubt they age at all. Mind Flyer can evolve further to become a part of the Elder Brain - the base part or some additional alongside others. This is all from the BG3 lore, I don't know if some common DnD lore contradicts this. It's common DnD lore. In DnD, becoming part of the elder brain is actually a Mind Flayer's 'death ritual', and the Elder brains actually hide the nature of what happens. It's sold to Mind Flayers as a sort of 'afterlife' where they become one with the elder brain, when in reality it's much more like the mind flayer's personality is discarded and destroyed and their thoughts and memories are consumed. At least - this is what I remember from the last time I checked on the lore. Things might have been changed or retconned since then. Another issue going by the lore, if I remember right, is that gnomes are actually immune to ceremorphosis. Well, not immune, but it just kills the gnome rather than making a mind flayer. I forget the exact reasoning for this. (Maybe gnomes are just so small that people kept asking "But where does all the extra body mass come from when they transform?!" But then there should be the same issue with halflings.) Though tbh, I think this is a pretty minor problem for BG3 compared to other plot problems. I am willing to acccept the official lore being fudged a bit.
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stranger
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stranger
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Here comes the frustrating part, Dungeons and Dragons monster/race lore is fairly liquid in nature. Usually things stay canon until mentioned otherwise, but the community as a whole kinda plays telephone based on half remembered readings from the Forgotten Realms wiki. With regards to Mind Flayer/Illithid aging, Volo's Guide to Monsters (2016) is a Fifth Edition book that mentions that Mind Flayers that are aging, infirm, or grievously injured are incorporated into an Elder Brain. However, it makes no mentions of how old a mind flayer has to be to die of old age. For that the most common citation points to the Monstrous Manual (1993) which is for Second Edition and under TSR rather than WotC. It says that Mind Flayers have a lifespan of 125 years. There might be some more information in some Third and Fourth edition, but ultimately the dilemma ends up being: Which source do we trust?
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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Based on the wiki and Twi's post, the Mind Flayer thing is probably not a lifespan, but a life expectancy. Mind Flayers may not die of old age, but become more likely to die after hitting a certain age.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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In DnD, becoming part of the elder brain is actually a Mind Flayer's 'death ritual', and the Elder brains actually hide the nature of what happens. It's sold to Mind Flayers as a sort of 'afterlife' where they become one with the elder brain, when in reality it's much more like the mind flayer's personality is discarded and destroyed and their thoughts and memories are consumed. This is exactly what I remember. And as you can see yourself, there is nothing about old age. For that the most common citation points to the Monstrous Manual (1993) which is for Second Edition and under TSR rather than WotC. It says that Mind Flayers have a lifespan of 125 years. Also, this^ The game is based on the 5th edition, so I doubt the relevancy of the 2d one, sorry. Though tbh, I think this is a pretty minor problem for BG3 compared to other plot problems. Agreed. I also agree to everything else OP stated, so I saw only this one point worth discussing 
Last edited by Faust-RSI; 19/09/23 03:07 PM.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
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Based on the wiki and Twi's post, the Mind Flayer thing is probably not a lifespan, but a life expectancy. Mind Flayers may not die of old age, but become more likely to die after hitting a certain age. Mhm. I'm willing to accept this, (for which I'll make an edit in the OP as a strong explanation) although they REALLY should have explored Emperor's life (and Balduran's, but whatever...) a little bit more to get rid of doubts like this. Here's the thing with the whole ceremorphosis deal - it eats away a person's body, mind and soul, so what else is left thereafter? Emperor is still behaving like Balduran - still has his memories, his mannerisms, his ideals, goals... What exactly are the mechanics of this?
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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I feel like Larian could have saved a lot of time if they just gave the player character the Artifact from the very beginning. You wake up, get out of the pod, and an Artifact on the floor flies into your hands.
It clears up the timeline:
-Emperor steals Artifact from Vlaakith.
-Shadowheart fails to steal it, having gotten caught.
-Emperor opens Artifact and gets in.
-You find Artifact and it is drawn to you.
Then they wouldn't have had to spend all that effort making different permutations to ensure that the Artifact absolutely ended up in your possession from Shadowheart.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think the Emperor is a very special case that Larian created. He has some of his memories which can happen with mindflayers but it goes beyond this for him as he seems to think he is the previous host and not the tadpole. Contrary to what the wiki says about the mindflayers he does seem to have positive feelings for example he said he was happy before he was taken away also this could be a lie but he didn't have to say it at all so there was no need to lie. And he seemed to have cared about the Duke - of course if she really was his thrall it was in a very sick way, but why else having a picture of her in his old hideout or even if you comfort him in the dream scene telling about her and that they were close? To make him appear more human? I do wonder how he feeds. Does he manage to kill off some of the honor guard regularly? Or does he leave the prism to fetch something?Strange that we never find anything like Astarions boar.
Last edited by Cawyden; 19/09/23 05:34 PM.
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