Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The story desperately needs QA

Cracks in the facade are starting to show.

People here on the forum are voicing it quite clearly but it seems that even the websites are starting to catch up.

https://nordic.ign.com/duplicate-ba...oming-a-problem-as-more-players-near-end
https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/23/bald...lains-its-lacklustre-final-act-19382973/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2023/08/20/two-warnings-about-baldurs-gate-3-review-scores/

Now Larian, this game, is so close to being the decade defining RPG it can be, but you are not quite there yet. The only reason I am here posting this is because I want you to take the last step, but tbh the problem is deeper than bug fixing. It seems the game has a glaring lack of coherence due to late re-writes or whatever.

And tbh Larian I think you are the only company today that is not too prideful to listen. For whatever it is worth.

If anyone wishes to brainstorm to help Larian out, come here:
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=897086#Post897086

*Edit*
When I say "close", I basically mean the framework in place. Using the framework in place rewrites of the main plot is within the realms of possibility for a great one.

To be honest, I personaly think, BG3 is nowhere near a genre- or decade defining game. I have tons of fun with it, I find it highly addictive, and I am really grateful that I have something to sink my teeth in, but in term of raw quality it is maybe a 6 or 7/10. The narrative structure is a mess, you could even argue, there is not much of a narrative at all. Act 3 still baffles me, there is almost a break between the end of act 2 and the beginning of act 3, feels like a different game. And these are only a few of the bigger issues. Lots of small stuff doesn't work that well after over 2.000 bug fixes either. I'm playing around with builds at the moment, yesterday I had the the issue, that literally 5 minutes after seeing the artefact Lae'zel was in the next dialogue back to "I can feel it, we are very close to the artefact".

I feel like the game is an 8 (without bugs). Maybe, *maybe* a 9 with fixed companion quests and real epilogue. Probably a 85% in real terms. It makes me sad we never got to see the real tragic potential of down by the river.

I don't mind so much that some maps themselves were cut. But, the amount of lose strings in the game leaves an unpleasant feeling. You can see them. You can feel them. There was a gamble somewhere and Larian didn't want to take it. What that resulted in was a masterpiece with generic story, incoherent companion content and no message.

I'm a big fan of genuine tragedy, yet a hater of so called "angst". The ME 3 style ending was a harsh blow. Above all, Bg3 has a weak "voice" due to its many concessions. While that may also be true for games like DA:O, the bar has been raised and this distinct lack of personality is the game's biggest downfall.

Well when I say close, I basically mean the framework is in place. The main story needs a substantial repass from the devs. If you summed up the story in quick terms , you could easily make it sound like an epic, however, delivery is completely all over the place and a mess.

And to your point about the ending Silver, I do not understand why people always need a stereotypical happy ending. I am all for tragedy, open endings, even happy endings provided there is some depth to it. This game has 0 ending whatsoever, people just have a 2 min conversation on the docks and fade to black. Unbelievable really.

In terms of gameplay, I'd give it an 8/10 for the *lower level combat* right now. 9/10 for act 1 combat if they fixed the bugs. By act 3, I think the combat degrades to like a 5-6/10 because of broken homebrew rules, ridiculous items, etc. making the combat trivial and boring.

In terms of writing....well, it depends. Character writing, the characters are pretty likable and have some fantastic VAs that really help them out in that regard, despite some of their background writing being weak imo. Plot writing...I like their writing for the sidequests. I think the hag sidequest in act 1 is very well done. The game feels the best in the early moments - before the main plot begins to unravel - and in the moments where you can almost forget about the main quest. I have to be honest, I think the whole main plot is a real stinker. Someone in another thread said itbest (can't remember which one right now unfortunately): The main plot would have been far better if it leaned more into being a story about personal salvation fighting against the tadpole, but instead it turned into a dumb, generic save the world plot. Which is weird, because all the "origins" characters have themes of personal salvation in their own personal lives that could easily have mirrored the struggle against the tadpole, but it never meshes because there's no consequences to using the tadpoles for a huge chunk of the game.

Characters I'd give a 8/10: Great VAs and likable, which is the most important thing. But they feel a little dead (they mostly interact with MC, not each other), romances seem kind of half-assed, and the backstory writing for some of them, ehhhhhh....
But the main plot? Right now? Especially with the way it falls apart atrociously in the last act? 3-4/10. It just seems so disjointed to me and it starts being disjointed *right away*. You start out on EPIC ALIEN SHIP that TELEPORTS TO HELL and then you're helping some druids with some goblins BUT THEN AN ARCHDEVIL COMES TO PERSONALLY MEET YOU TO MAKE YOU A DEAL (randomly, on the beach)...it's all over the place. And I defintiely notice this more when I was trying to get myself into a second playthrough, but uh....people have a pretty muted reaction to the fact that an alien spaceship just crashlanded down the road from them in Act 1. It's actually a little jarring how little people seem to care. LIke, Nautiloids are not a common thing.

To me, BG3 right now is very much like DOS2: It has some really fun moments where the gameplay genuinely shines, and it's *so good* that it really charms you (I must have replayed the first 2 acts of DOS2 dozens of times), but the plot is always kinda dumb, and the gameplay eventually falters hard in the latter half of the game.

Right now in it's current state, I can't give this game anything beyond a 4/10 on an objective scale, but subjectively it is very near a 10/10. As you said they have a great framework to craft this decade's best RPG, but let's be honest, the game should have stayed in EA for another year or two. I can understand the artistic choice to rewrite the story (throwing Daisy away and introcuing the Emperor instead) but it caused some fundamental plot holes that shouldn't even let the game happen (f.e. - Durge is a canonic Netherstone holder yet once Orin takes control, there is never a moment of the Brain being loose for some duration and is never acknowledged as a giant turning point in the Absolute plot, something that both Ketheric and Orin would have exploited as Gortash was on rails working with Durge), and it also caused a ripple effect with the rest of the game just lacking either a lot of polish or straight up being poorly crafted (Act3 mainly). I've written a couple posts of my own (mostly concerning Durge but also the larger plot overall) and commented under several posts in hopes of getting Larian's attention, because while they definitely deserve the commercial success as a company, they do not deserve the critical praise as of right now.

Also please fix your bloody inventory system please Larian. Just take a note out of Dragon Age Origins.

I think the combat is great all through imo (except maybe a few of the bigger fights, they need to be sped up somehow). Tbh in RPGs I always have to use some self imposed limits otherwise the game becomes to easy.
Some things I like to do:
- rarely use scrolls, rarely use potions (maybe max 1-2 times in a single combat, and only every 10-20 combat encounter or so) because come on, the enemies barely use them so why should you?
- I generally just use cool looking gear over effective gear that fits the character, and so on.
- If I come in unprepared I usually save and force myself to deal with it (instead of save scumming)
Combat: 9/10

The Plot is, not properly QAed and I struggle to see if any of the developers have played through it all themselves. Because there are way too many inconsistencies. It can easily be remade into something good if they are willing to put in the effort( alot of effort). I don't see why games can't start epic, the problem for me is not starting in hell on a nautiloid, it is more how the game doesn't step back after the beginning and just keep spamming epic at you through all the lower levels. It should have been a taste of what is to come, not the way it is now.
Story: Eh.. maybe 9/10 until the Emperor shows up and then in a steep fall until 4/10.

Characters are better than people give them credit for , 9/10 - 10/10 imo. Though in act 3 they all died inside because, rush. They all feel more human than most I can remember on the spot. My reasoning is this: what the hell kinda characters are you comparing them to? Yes Gale(for example) being a former lover of Mystra seems like another "epic" crammed in, but he feels believable and is properly developed with his own motivations, his own personality and so on. If they just patch out the MYstra excess he is an amazing character imo. The others also feel human and well written ( I can not speak for Astarion because I sent him away after the bite incident, and Laezel because she died in act 1). The other companions are also well done. Maybe Wyll is a bit one dimensional.

- In retrospect maybe you need to tone down the "epic" a bit on some of them and (they all suffer in act 3 for obvious reasons) for it to be a 10/10.
Characters: 9/10 (may I also add, fantastic VAs)

It feels like the game wasn't just rewritten at some point during early access, but it was rewritten by entirely different writers. And they realized they didn't have enough time to do a complete rewrite, so they shifted elements they already had to make it fit with what they rewrote. And it turns the whole story into this confused, disjointed mess where things just sort of happen, and sometimes maybe characters react to what's happening.

And just in general, the logic of the story sometimes seems like it's in a different order than it's supposed to be. Like I can't help but shake the feeling that some parts of Act 2 where actually supposed to be Act 3. Though, I'll admit, some of that is because I don't understand why you'd hire JK Simmons to voice a villain, and not have him be the primary antagonist.

Plus it's bizarre that the really monstrous home brewed enemies are in Act 2, and Act 3 is filled with random cultists that are given random homebrewed powers to make them not get instantly deleted by the higher level party.

Ridiculous opinion

sorry for having correct opinions on a video game. as if it's my fault

The whole final mission and the choice
I got to grips with act 3, but that last mission made NO sense narratively.

I must agree, I think Larian did cut ACT 3 in order to release the game before Starfield, which was a good move money wise but really took a lot from the players. Now is the time to show, that Larian wants to be the good studio people are calling them and give us some of that content back. Patch 3 is behind the corner and Im expecting many fixes, announcements and mainly some promising notes regarding Karlachs ending (the most frequent thing people ask for).

There were some statements about voice actors back in the studio... a video where they're all together...

I'm waiting until the definite edition before giving my final judgement, but at least they're possibly working on it (or DLC).

The VAs carry much of the reason the companions are likable. But some of their stories break if you pay attention to them specifically (Karlach especially). I agree wholeheartedly that the story needs proper QA. If devs played their game with focus on story problems (also as origins) they’d catch on many plot breaking moments that need rewriting.

As others pointed out, the urgency and epicness of the mess the player is in at the start (dragons, nautiloid, the actual Hells) kind of abruptly stops and you’re searching for an archdruid’s assistant to try and pry the tadpole from your eye. It does not really feel like it’ll work… but I might be being picky - Act 1 is much more put together narratively regardless of that.

I felt things start to go wild and the narrative fall apart in mid Act 2. I believe we all pay more attention to the characters we grow to like and keep in our party, so in my case I noticed the glaring narrative neglect to Karlach (which is well documented in other posts). Regarding the main quest, it falls kind of flat. You have

I feel that there was the potential of making the main quest/saving the world kind of quest much more believable and epic if we had all parts of the story tied together, including those who were implied but not put in the actual game.
All in all, some QA, some devs and/or volunteers even playing the game while paying attention to the ‘big’ narrative, as well as personal narratives of characters making notes of plot contradictions, mistakes and gaps could guide a rewriting and restructuring of the story where it falls short the most.

I’m pretty sure good writers at Larian can find a way to link and re-craft the narrative where it fails if they have the time and resources put at their disposal. I assume it’s impossible to make it 100% at this point (or any tbh), but the main story and some of the more lacking sub-stories in the game could be made a LOT better still.

One thing that bothers me is that with Gale's ending only afaik if you

OR

This...nothing more needs to be said really.

Of course, they will say more

All in all I am confused as to why we are not given a way to remove the tadpole until the last hour of the game.

It is just too shallow a plot-point to have it hanging over us for 90 hours, and I honestly do not think it makes sense. That is a larvae in your damn head, that will destroy you from the inside if you do not find a cure. It makes absolutely no sense running around for 90 hours doing sidequests (or main quests for that matter), while we have a literal parasite in our head. Around the end of act 1 that thing needs to go, and be replaced by us having a personal stake, or an actual reason to care about the Netherbrain and all the other stuff going on.

I just grow increasingly annoyed by the plot denying me the opportunity to get rid of the tadpole while it keeps throwing quests at me and expects me to ignore the most imminent threat of all. Companions stop commenting it, no one seems to care. We have no indication whatsoever when we could turn, and after a certain point we are just forced into RPing that we believe whatever the Emperor is saying. Frustrating.

Honestly they need to sit down and play through it from start to end themselves, they will easily see how many jarring plot points detract from the experience. I can not see how they can have played through it all themselves, and no one picked up on all the inconsistencies and forced plot points?

Forced to have tadpole in head for the entire game (how on earth does it make sense to ignore this?)
Forced to take the Emperors side.
Forced into choose X mindflayer.
And way more..


They have superb plot points and characters to hinge the story on for a rewrite, it can be done, granted Larian is willing to.

All the chosen three have the potential to be really good villains, we just see too little of them, through the entire game imo.
The elderbrain can be intriguing but its place in the plot feels strange. Maybe it should be the boss of act2, then we have an entire powerstruggle on our hands in act3, idk
The tadpole works, but it is way too annoying to not have a solution to that thing by the end of act 1
Raphael, Mizora and Aelyn etc and similar characters can be interwoven into the plot more
The Emperor has potential but they absolutely need to find a place for him where we are not forced under him for literally 95% of the game
Daisy/guardian/dream visitor can be superb if rewritten, but the way this just gels into the Emperor is bad
Shadowlands is great, the city is great, it is all there really.

THe story grows increasingly annoying with the no tadpole solution yeah..

It boils down to them removing consequences from the game in general. In EA Raphael could actually remove the tadpole, in exchange for whatever he asked. The Volo Icepick Lobotomy was an actual full on debuff with no upside, the Hag deal was also way harsher, and there seemed to be threads where accepting powers from Daisy would actually be a bad thing.