Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Wow, I guess you should be issued a formal apology from Karlach because her attitude shifted when faced with certain death. How dare she?! As the game is right now, she's dying. Maybe accept some mood changes? I dunno I'm not a relationship counsilor.

I agree with wanting to fight for a good resolution, always makes for a richer story experience. Thats why i'd rather wanna be able to achieve that resolution while we're in act 3 and not have her story resolved at the end of the game. Rather than dammon and the gondians showing up at the end with a miracle fix, i want us to be able to finish her quest, and achieve a resolution from our own hard work.

Just spitballing some ideas on how this could be achieved;
1. After finishing off gortash and listening to karlach heartwrenching breakdown, have the quest log update that the gondians seem like a possible lead to fixing her engine. We go talk to them, they seem to know whats what with her engine but there's a catch; aside from the enriched infernal iron part, some other integral part is needed and only place to find it is in avernus(i know, kinda cheap lol but again, spitballing ideas)
2. We already know how to get to avernus, so getting there is no problem. While exploring avernus looking for the engine macguffin we could learn more about karlachs time here, see some vendor and get use out of those goddamn soul coins the game throws at us(they were originally meant to be used as currency in avernus until avernus got cut from the game, go figure), and maybe meet up with karlachs old friend we heard about during act 2 in the moonrise towers. Maybe they could have some moment too.
3. Right as we've found the important engine thingy and are ready to leave, maybe throw in some boss fight with some old enemies or some of zariel's forces, something to up the stakes a bit.
4. Boom, we got a cool quest line in a new area and got to learn more about karlachs background and help her, just like how most RPG companion questlines are written. Now the gondians can fix karlachs engine, and then we have an emotional, heartfelt moment with her (especially if tav/durge is romancing her), and lastly have some post-quest conversation about what karlachs plans are now.

Obviously this would be quite a lot for larian to add in lol. I'll happily just take a slapped in update where the gondians are able to upgrade her engine without some avernus adventure, but it would be really sick to explore avernus even for an hour. Most companions get their own ''areas'' for their quests like the shar temple for shadow or cazadors mansion for astarion, so in that sense it doesnt seem ridiculous to have a new area for karlachs quest to take place in, and it wouldnt even need to be that big.

I mean if we're going full imagination here with a quest in Avernus, I'd also love to have Zariel herself involved. Perhaps not like, as a boss ('cause dismantling an archdevil of a whole layer of hell surely calls for a bigger separate questline, it's not Raphael), but to make an appearance. To have Karlach show her the metaphorical (or literal) middle finger like, say, Lae'zel does with her Queen. I know Gortash takes the role of a former abuser in her questline for now, but if we're talking, like, comparisons with other companions, then it really feels like Zariel should be her ultimate big bad, while Avernus would be her dedicated location (a la creshe or Shar's Gauntlet or Cazador's mansion, etc)

I also don't think Larian would add THAT much content here, but it's fun to imagine!

I don't understand why you came in so abrasive, but no, I won't accept "some mood changes", because none of them make sense.

There was nothing about what we did that should've caused her to be like this. That's the whole problem. We didn't do "all we could" for her heart, but the story pretends like we did and we have to pretend with it.

And now, thanks to Patch 2, she's pretending with us. Instead of saying, "Hey, let's go ask those Gondians" after hearing from them that they've literally crafted an advanced version of her engine, she's talking about how you've helped her make peace with death. What? Why? She was looking forward to life just a moment ago. Now she's making peace with death? There was no set-up for that. It just happens.

Nobody in real life would act like this given all the circumstances, never mind in a story where characters' personalities do not change on a whim.

As lemontree wrote his post earlier, this is the kind of solution I like and also prefer. Fix her using gondians, do visit to avernus, do some bossfight, have few difficult choices in coversations, maybe few high rolls, meet her old friends, new dialogs about her life in avernus, improve her story in overall. After completing the quest sucessfully and if you care/romance her, very good ending (without/ with Tav) should be possible.

But all these implementations will need tons of time, if the original Avernus had the size similar to Underdark. Also we cannot forget, that there are other companions and their fans which also want to fix them asap. And content, ideas and features Larian want to add, update or rework. So at the end this will be a massive portion of content to create and implement into the game. Also this probably causes another issues like level cap, because player will reach level cap too early. To raise the level cap devs need to create new spells, abilitied and so on, balance the whole game so the ending will not be too easy. And so on.....

IF this will be implemented sometimes in the future in a form of definitive edition, I'll be the happiest BG3 fan ever. To be honest, I'm not fan of quickly added solutions as we saw in patch 2. It did some improvements, but in overal the Avernus cutscene looks average at best and feels even worse completely without emotions as my Tav in romance with Karlach stayed next to her like we barely know each other (If Wyll is with us it is even worse as she said the same things and Wyll is silent and looks like he doesn't care at all).

The potential items like enriched infernal iron for example have a logical path to coming up with a fix sure. You have working infernal engines in Faerun via the Steelwatch that do not require Avernus' conditions to operate properly.

However, how do you integrate that enriched infernal iron? Does Karlach undergo surgery? The Gondians need to figure this out, it isn't just some steel chassis you're hooking into, is Karlach alive during this process, can she be? How do you remove the thing that is operating as her heart? It seems more complex than the heat shield plating reinforcement upgrades Dammon installed.

To make the story good and address the obvious bread crumbs that lead people to feel as you do, "infernal iron, Gondians, etc. Why can't we use this stuff" Larian is left with two options, the context obviously varying wildly:

1. Remove items that suggest there is hints to a fix, establish more definitively that Steelwatch Gondian technology is incompatible and Mizora refuses to help Karlach after the Gondians suggest we get infernal mechanics to assist. Make it so Mizora forbids ANY infernal intervention whatsoever, keeping a magical eye on Karlach, stopping all attempts to do so, hoping Karlach concedes and returns to Avernus. Karlach needs to be told no, these potential solutions are not viable, no god is answering her pleas, Wither says with all his power "No"

2. Utilize the already established fan theories or ideas.

a. Enriched Infernal Iron, Gondians workshop (don't blow up factory, forced to deal with steel watch during Gortash encounter as a trade off?).

b. Work with Gortash to replace Karlach's engine? He has the infernal connections, portal to new area of Avernus for materials using House of Hope portal?

c. Make a pact with Mizora and Zariel where Karlach is allowed to return to Faerun part-time in between blood war campaigns with a new and improved 2.0 engine that gives her power upgrades, Infernal Fury 2.0 (soul coin buff), makes her burn blue flame and white when excited "date scene". This way, Zariel's unfinished business can be addressed, rather than just brute force killing off Zariel's forces or fighting fire with fire in this case, Karlach realizes after killing Gortash there was no real satisfaction, just the same pain about what she had already lost, revenge didn't heal it. So you have character growth and taking the high road, coming to an agreement and working together with her slavers from a position of equality and power?

d. Any wish spells or true resurrections would likely be void of satisfaction, seems too silly to capitalize on that with such 'conventional' means at hand (plethora of suggestions from players, including yourself BitterSchizo). Yes I know, it is Faerun, DnD, magic exist and miracles but let's avoid another Gale fail safe Mystra situation, you'd be stepping on his toes too much, that is more his arc.

e. Withers decides Karlach can be summoned for a mere pittance 'semi-permanently'. Divine intervention is up there with wish spells etc. But I think this approach would be unique and not without compromise.

f. Gondians work with Dammon and Mizora, upgrade and fix Karlach's heart but Tav and Karlach agree to a one year contract to fight in the blood war for Zariel, after which Karlach and Tav can do whatever they want without conflict or trickery from Zariel/Mizora.

I think this is where some of the dialogue and exploration of Karlach's character needs to reflect the possibility of returning to Avernus and making it a choice she can live with. Literally add in dialogue options to steer her from doom talk to glass half full and you're alive like Dammon said, the world would be a better place with you in it, even in Avernus. Making a difference for the better.

Make something good out of it, purpose behind validating the option. The reality of returning to Avernus should've shifted throughout the game, she made powerful friends and allies. Enough so, that a couple of those friends are willing to return to Avernus with her, removing the one thing she hated most about the place, loneliness. This could be another dynamic to the evolution of her character based on player choices and approval rating with Karlach, leading into an alternate ending twist.

The problem I have with this concept is that any ending where Karlach is forced by circumstance to return to Avernus will still feel to me like a failstate. It still leaves her main character arc inevitably out of player hands because the only difference is how she feels rather than being presented with an actual choice. Avernus is still the fountainhead of her trauma, and a satisfying story involving trauma should end with the character moving on, not accepting that this is the best they're going to get and going back.

I'm frankly not interested in being convinced that Avernus isn't that bad actually because at the end of the day, it's well... hell. There is a limited amount of good that can be done there, you can't make it a better place because it is, intrinsically, a bad place. In addition, Avernus isn't even the goal in this ending since we're merely there to buy time, leaving her character story STILL unresolved and out of player hands. If this is an RPG, I expect my choices to have a bigger impact than "this abuse victim still has to return to their abuser, but at least they're not sad about it".

A major grievance I have with this ending is the lack of player impact. Impact that, in my view, can only be gained by resolving her problem fully. Otherwise we may as well just leave her by the river where we first met.

Quick qiestion to the community, i want a fleshed out fix to her story - trip to avernus/ boss fight aswell i think it woukd be super fitting and i love the ideas that are recently being suggested.

My question is how would you all feel if larian did a patch (in the mean time) that added some hopeful dialogue to karlach in acts 2/3? Like - i know im not fixed yet but i bet we will find a way soon - just something small added in for now as a unoffical announcment that they have heard us and will most likely have something down the line?

Only reason i ask is Larian is pretty consistent in keeping things close to the chest. Which is great usually. But right now the silence is deafening. Id give anhthing for just SOMETHING that suggest that they are potentially working on a reworked karlach act 3

I agree with you here. I think that the first of two major points of this issue is as you've stated, the fact that the player basically has no say in what happens as all the ending-choice is made right before said ending. There's no resolution to the problem, there's nothing remotely done for the problem to be fixed. She either dies, after just having felt what it's like to be alive (some will say that it's better than nothing, and I will raise you that it's fucking cruel), or return to the place she would never willingly set her foot in again. Either ending feels like a cop-out of doing anything at all, and what bugs me with it is that even the characters in the group comment about there having to be a way to fix it. Yes, I can already hear someone saying, oh but it's the hope that kills. But that's the thing, we came to love her and throughout the game we wait and wait for more subquests to pop up so we can keep that thread going. But nothing happens! Compared to the shitload of stuff in the journal that we get to follow for the other Origins.

After fixing her heart enough to let her be touched, when talking to Wyll he'll say "We'll get Karlach fixed up, right? There's always a way - there *has* to be".

And then we go on our merry way doing everything and fixing everyone's big and small problems whilst Karlach will randomly say "Damn, it's good to be alive!!" whenever we take control of her. URGH it sits so sour in my mouth!

I'd feel happy about anything that would remotely suggest that we're getting something. I don't even need details, I want to know that they've heard the fanbase, they've read the threads and they see that the epilogue may have added to the existing stuff but didn't really respond to what the community was really looking for with Karlach. And that they've taken that into consideration and will work on something that will give us more options for her story and her ending, that is more hopeful but will require quite a bit of work to implement ingame. I'm ready to give them months, a year, if need be. I'm patient. But I need to know that this isn't in vain and that fanbase voices still matter. Because the rest of the game is pretty fucking stellar, yet this is a real crucial point of interest for me, no matter if we play as her Origin or have her as Tav's companion.

I agree with your failstate label for Avernus, certainly not a good ending. I believe there should be a good ending state for Karlach as an option. I do also think however that Avernus is the elephant in the room, it is after all the root cause of the problem. I don't think any solution be it past, present or future can be avoided, it has to come into play.

A fix for the infernal engine, peaceful living in Faerun, adjusting to the new lifestyle out of the hells seems to be what people would like to see as a good ending. It would certainly be viable but also leave the unfinished business as open-ended content, let the headcanon theorycraft. But the inevitable is Karlach is/was/will likely be an object of interest to Zariel/Avernus in some form, be it her own loose ends renting space in her head or it coming back to haunt her in some fashion.

There is potential for DLC or definitive content to make its way in and I believe that will likely take the form of some aspect of Avernus.

Yes Avernus or at least upper city is a must if we want a full story arc. I really hope they will not release some hotfix with Dammon gives her third infernal ore and problem solved.

I mean, I think the problem here isn't with the characterization, it's just with the story/quest.

Yes, we didn't do everything we could, not by a long shot, but the story indeed pretends like we did (which is annoying and is one of the biggest reasons for this thread's existence), but while the story goes thusly everyone within the story has to go along with it like it's true (even if it freaking isn't).

And if the story for now is "we did everything we could, you're doomed" then all the characters shall react to it accordingly - including Karlach herself. That's the frame within which she has to operate for now.

Although, considering the lines were added later, the change might indeed be a bit abrupt, can't discuss that point since by the end of Act 3 that attitude of hers felt MORE than appropriate. Maybe the earlier jump is more jarring and I just haven't seen it yet.

Now, if/when they actually put more opportunities or quest stages for her in the game - THEN one could argue such a doomed attitude should be reserved for failstates (in which we're currently locked) and not be her default feelings on the matter.

Then again, I'm personally fine with the story still feeling hopeless and being about acceptance - just let me dig up a damn miracle somewhere by the end of it. There's it's own beauty in accepting your doom only to suddenly realize you get to live and you haven't even planned to get that far while cramming all the life enjoyment you could get in the previous couple of months... Guess it's time to re-learn how to live without a clock ticking. And such and such.

What annoys me the most is that this game will break it's ass in half, bending over backwards so players can constantly get the best of every choice.

Auntie Ethel wants to give you a skill point in exchange for Myrina and the baby? Just pass a persuasion check and you get both!

Want to get Wyll out of his contract? No problem! Larian allows Mizora to be captured (even though she has a protection spell that makes her disappear if she's attacked) SPECIFICALLY so Wyll could get out.

Oh now Mizora wants the soul of Wylls father? That's fine! Just use Dimension Door in the Iron Throne and you get to save him!

Don't want Gale to explode? Just tell him not to and eventually he gets Deus Ex'd into a happy ending!

Want the Hammer of Orpheus but don't want to make the deal with Raphael? Just break into his house, grab the hammer and get a shit load of god-tier loot as a bonus!

Don't want to become a Mindflayer? That's fine! Orpheus has a tadpol in his head for some reason (which is never mentioned or hinted at) just so he can make the sacrifice instead!

Shadowheart gets TWO happy endings, three depending on your perspective.


Larian CONSISTENTLY removes the idea of compromise at every corner... Except for Karlach. Even though she has the biggest clues and hints about being able to fix it and, in fact, there are game mechanics IN THE GAME that should be able to fix her. But nope, she's fucked no matter what.

Just... No. That's not good story telling. It's not good game design. It's just confusing and frustrating.
Don't lead us on about "Choices and permutations" just to cut it off at the last 10 hours of the game so you can have your 'The Fault in Our Stars' ending that you fell in love with even though it makes no sense.

Sorry! Seems like I missed your reply to me.

And apologies for being unclear: the rapid tonal shift was there from the start. What I meant was that Patch 2 made it worse and cemented it.

Exactly. If we're to have her return to her most hated place, we have to do some more narrative heavy lifting than the few nudges here and there that currently exist.

You know what, I think we generally agree, just from different angles.

As in, I think that more things should be added to make this change and the sorrow more believable (and then also preferably fixable. You know. The sorrow as the middle of the struggle, not the end.), not that these things themselves go against her character. Too much effect, not enough cause.

Definitely agree that the shift on the pier is VERY abrupt (have JUST finished the game myself, finally).

...I am also deeply fascinated by this now, because I didn't get any of that in that scene and I wonder if it depends on something.


geez this is a lot of quote and spoiler tags hope they are all placed correctly

I wouldn't be against it. Perhaps a line or two talking about the Gondians would certainly be a nice, subtle sign toward Karlach fans that would alleviate a lot of anxiety without having to make any announcements.

I don't know what dialogue options you had or clicked, but you can check the scene out on YouTube to see if there were any differences for you.

Funny you should mention The Fault in Our Stars. Here's what I said about that a few days ago: