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Edit: Also a good way for Karlach to address any unfinished business in Avernus, that is her style after all. Some check-list items crossed off. I was with you up until this part. I think it's a very jarring tonal shift to have her lusting for life and deathly afraid of returning to Avernus most of the run until the last act where she does a complete 180 and becomes a doomer who's suddenly fine with their fate and fine with going back there. The whiplash that this tonal shift creates kills much of the rich emotional story beats that you referred to in your post. They need to either do away with that shift or lay the seeds for it in earlier acts depending on your choices. The prime reason people love Karlach so much is her energy and her personality. She's a gentle giant who doesn't take any shit. And she looks damn hot to boot. That's what made most people fall in love with her. The infernal engine story takes a back seat to that. What Larian did with Patch 2 was to suck out her vivacious and upbeat attitude and replace it with a somber, downer attitude that doesn't fit her at all. I agree that keeping the drama is important, but it can't be at the expense of the character. I think this is where some of the dialogue and exploration of Karlach's character needs to reflect the possibility of returning to Avernus and making it a choice she can live with. Literally add in dialogue options to steer her from doom talk to glass half full and you're alive like Dammon said, the world would be a better place with you in it, even in Avernus. Making a difference for the better. Make something good out of it, purpose behind validating the option. The reality of returning to Avernus should've shifted throughout the game, she made powerful friends and allies. Enough so, that a couple of those friends are willing to return to Avernus with her, removing the one thing she hated most about the place, loneliness. This could be another dynamic to the evolution of her character based on player choices and approval rating with Karlach, leading into an alternate ending twist. Exactly. If we're to have her return to her most hated place, we have to do some more narrative heavy lifting than the few nudges here and there that currently exist.
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That last-minute choice on the pier goes against every single time she said she'd rather die here and now than live a long life in Avernus. With Patch 2, you can now see the 180 with your own eyes. Going to the House of Hope gave her extreme anxiety. Now she's just chilling with a cigar. How did that happen?
I don't know what to tell you, but for me, not enough things happened and not enough time had passed for a change this big to occur.
<...>
All of that despite not having even attempted any other option aside from Dammon. I'm sorry, but in a game where a guy with a magic time bomb in his chest gets to walk it off, that sounds like bullshit to me. You know what, I think we generally agree, just from different angles. As in, I think that more things should be added to make this change and the sorrow more believable (and then also preferably fixable. You know. The sorrow as the middle of the struggle, not the end.), not that these things themselves go against her character. Too much effect, not enough cause. Definitely agree that the shift on the pier is VERY abrupt (have JUST finished the game myself, finally). I don't know how the dialogue goes without Wyll offering to go, but with him my 'convincing' literally took one line, which... Yeah, doesn't mash well with the whole game of denial before that. I was fully expecting at least SOME attempt to refuse from her. A persuasion check maybe!
One can say that perhaps coming that close to dying Karlach at the last moment got way too much scared and grasped at the first straw you gave her, one can say that those first minutes in Avernus is just her putting on brave face etc etc, but I have to agree there, the tonal shift is jarring. I like the scene, I like the badass run off into the sunset they did, but, like. Knowing what we know I just can't help but feel like as soon as the wave of adrenaline goes down and it fully dawns on her that she's back with possibly no escape again it will be freaking anxiety/depression central. She even begs you to tell her you'll try, that you can fix her. And what can you say in return? You can either lie to her or give her a shoulder to cry on. ...I am also deeply fascinated by this now, because I didn't get any of that in that scene and I wonder if it depends on something. All I got was vise versa, with her sarcastically being like "right, what, you got a wish spell in your pocket?". The only thing she asked of me (later) was to stay with her when it's her time to go (which. HURT.) geez this is a lot of quote and spoiler tags hope they are all placed correctly
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Quick qiestion to the community, i want a fleshed out fix to her story - trip to avernus/ boss fight aswell i think it woukd be super fitting and i love the ideas that are recently being suggested.
My question is how would you all feel if larian did a patch (in the mean time) that added some hopeful dialogue to karlach in acts 2/3? Like - i know im not fixed yet but i bet we will find a way soon - just something small added in for now as a unoffical announcment that they have heard us and will most likely have something down the line?
Only reason i ask is Larian is pretty consistent in keeping things close to the chest. Which is great usually. But right now the silence is deafening. Id give anhthing for just SOMETHING that suggest that they are potentially working on a reworked karlach act 3 I wouldn't be against it. Perhaps a line or two talking about the Gondians would certainly be a nice, subtle sign toward Karlach fans that would alleviate a lot of anxiety without having to make any announcements.
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One can say that perhaps coming that close to dying Karlach at the last moment got way too much scared and grasped at the first straw you gave her, one can say that those first minutes in Avernus is just her putting on brave face etc etc, but I have to agree there, the tonal shift is jarring. I like the scene, I like the badass run off into the sunset they did, but, like. Knowing what we know I just can't help but feel like as soon as the wave of adrenaline goes down and it fully dawns on her that she's back with possibly no escape again it will be freaking anxiety/depression central. Karlach at some point earlier in the game tells you that even if you go to Avernus hoping for a solution, in due time it saps you of any hope you have. ...I am also deeply fascinated by this now, because I didn't get any of that in that scene and I wonder if it depends on something. All I got was vise versa, with her sarcastically being like "right, what, you got a wish spell in your pocket?". The only thing she asked of me (later) was to stay with her when it's her time to go (which. HURT.) I don't know what dialogue options you had or clicked, but you can check the scene out on YouTube to see if there were any differences for you. If you tell her you'll be with her till the very end, she'll beg, or rather she'll demand that you tell her that you've found some way to fix her and that she'll get her heart back. An alternative option is for you to tell her that maybe you can still fix and stabilize her engine (which is a lie, of course). Her making a sarcastic remark for a Wish spell comes in later.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 20/09/23 12:10 AM.
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Just... No. That's not good story telling. It's not good game design. It's just confusing and frustrating.
Don't lead us on about "Choices and permutations" just to cut it off at the last 10 hours of the game so you can have your 'The Fault in Our Stars' ending that you fell in love with even though it makes no sense. Funny you should mention The Fault in Our Stars. Here's what I said about that a few days ago: Karlach's story isn't that of a terminal patient, it's that of a slave fighting for freedom on the penalty of death. She's more Solomon from 12 Years a Slave than Augustus from The Fault in Our Stars.
What Solomon does is he struggles to attain his freedom. What Augustus does is he makes his final days meaningful. Karlach spends the bulk of her time doing the former, while the latter is sparse.
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stranger
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stranger
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So after a month of not touching my main playthrough I finally gathered enough courage to load it up and go try the final Gortash mission. "How bad can it be?" I thought, naively. Was so distraught, I couldn't remember how to get to Orin so I just exited the game. Larian PLEASE I beg you, I can take this. I WANT to finish the game and see the grand finale but I can't. I was so hype for the final showdown but now I don't even care and it's killing me. I love this game and I want to enjoy it's ending the way it deserves but I just don't. It feels empty. There is no good ending for Karlach and therefore no good ending for my Tav so why even bother? I don't have enough will to live to soldier trough this heartbreak and then be left with the feeling of hollow nothingness.
Justice For Karlach
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If you tell her you'll be with her till the very end, she'll beg, or rather she'll demand that you tell her that you've found some way to fix her and that she'll get her heart back. An alternative option is for you to tell her that maybe you can still fix and stabilize her engine (which is a lie, of course). Her making a sarcastic remark for a Wish spell comes in later. Oh, yeah, gotcha, I chose the 'maybe we can still fix it' option for roleplay purposes - I as a player know that that's a lie, but my Tav in-game, of course, doesn't and really wants to hope. That just earned me a second (well, first) sarcastic comment on 'got a miracle in your back pocket you forgot to tell me about?'
Knowing her reaction to the first option now hurts additionally, thank you.
Kind of glad I didn't hear it because I would explode from anger at WANTING TO DO EXACTLY THAT BUT BEING UNABLE TO, LARIANNN (we're spoilering a post-killing-Gortash scene if anyone needs an indication to click or not to click)
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Do I really have to time and time again mention a god damned dating sim, because it did better job at storytelling than an RPG? How exactly should the good ending at the end, if an ending epilogue should be made to actually BE GOOD? How it can we a well written story if we are still ignoring billions of easy and lore accurate solutions? The potential items like enriched infernal iron for example have a logical path to coming up with a fix sure. You have working infernal engines in Faerun via the Steelwatch that do not require Avernus' conditions to operate properly. However, how do you integrate that enriched infernal iron? Does Karlach undergo surgery? The Gondians need to figure this out, it isn't just some steel chassis you're hooking into, is Karlach alive during this process, can she be? How do you remove the thing that is operating as her heart? It seems more complex than the heat shield plating reinforcement upgrades Dammon installed. I mean, how does she upgrade the engine right now? She just stands there and presses the iron to her chest, lol. Technicalities like that don't need explanations in a fantasy world (especially one as ridiculous as D&D's). But if they do want to explain it, there are a million ways to do it because it's a fantasy world with very few rules.
Last edited by Chlamydia; 20/09/23 01:51 AM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
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Like I get it, I get they wanted to go with some sort of acceptance route There is no need for acceptance in the world of D&D. Literally anything is possible.
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journeyman
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Like I get it, I get they wanted to go with some sort of acceptance route There is no need for acceptance in the world of D&D. Literally anything is possible. Fucking for real. We just casually walk into the most powerful wizard in the universe on some random road but Larian is like "Yeah, Karlachs engine is like... Old or something i dunno rofl time to die"
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apprentice
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Yes, these are examples of ways to explain the process, what it could look like and what challenges are involved during a potential questline addition. They need to be present, it gives substance to the questline itself. Her problem is addressed as critical and cannot be easily fixed after the two upgrades, so it could be parts other than external to the engine and rather internal.
No plug and play option like the first two upgrades. Her questline starting with two fetch quests should end with something more engaging. Her overall story comes off as neglected, adding content to fix her by sticking to the current theme she's been subjected seems like a waste.
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Banned
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Joined: Sep 2023
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Yeah she's facing imminent death and nobody bothers to even try to do something. Wow peak writing, so much drama
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Let me remind you that if she’s the main character she either burns alive alone (everyone goes on to celebrate and they don’t notice you/Karlach fall behind and go to the pier to die) or she goes back to Avernus alone (and you don’t see it, it’s just implied by her monologue). Again, completely ALONE. What the actual f*ck. I heard she’d get more time to say farewell to the companions or something before the end as main character but I haven’t seen any of that. I am shocked and horrified. Wth, Larian?
Rawr.
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apprentice
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apprentice
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Let me remind you that if she’s the main character she either burns alive alone (everyone goes on to celebrate and they don’t notice you/Karlach fall behind and go to the pier to die) or she goes back to Avernus alone (and you don’t see it, it’s just implied by her monologue). Again, completely ALONE. What the actual f*ck. I heard she’d get more time to say farewell to the companions or something before the end as main character but I haven’t seen any of that. I am shocked and horrified. Wth, Larian? They just rushed the release. We still do not know the reason for the postponement from August 31 to August 3. And our beloved Karlach, alas, became a victim of this haste. Perhaps they just didn’t think that she would become so popular and that her story, even in unfinished form, would touch our hearts so much. I would like to hope that Larian will pay attention to us in the community update before Patch 3. If they truly listen to the community.
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journeyman
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I'm gonna be honest. I'm doomering hard right now.
I think the writers just fell in love with the devil-cancer tragic story and are just choosing to willfully ignore any potholes or possible solutions.
The have author brain and just going to refuse to change it because they think copy pasting the fault in our stars was actually a good idea.
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apprentice
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I'm also starting to lean towards this option. It is possible that the main writer Larian thought that taking away any opportunity to get a good ending for the most cheerful and pleasant character in the game is a good idea and that this is a “good tragedy” and the very “hope that kills”. In my opinion, this is simply selfishness and disrespect for the people who constantly kept Karlach close to them and were ready to do everything to ensure that her story ended well
Last edited by Sad_Pepe1992; 20/09/23 07:34 AM.
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It's too early to be despairing about this. Larian has rewritten past character stories after fan outcry, they can (and I believe they will) do it again.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 20/09/23 07:42 AM.
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I would like to hope that Larian will pay attention to us in the community update before Patch 3. If they truly listen to the community. You're gonna want to temper this hope a little bit. It's fully worth hoping that they listen and update at least the Act 3 portion of her personal questline considering how you find experts other than Dammon and the next tier of Infernal metal already in the game that is obviously supposed to be the next step in the quest that never happens which would logically lead to a better outcome. However before Patch 3 is just way too soon. It's clear the quest is in this state because they didn't finish making the content for it so they'd need the time to write it, voice it, program it, all that. If we're lucky the soonest I'd hope for it is before spring next year.
Last edited by Auric; 20/09/23 08:31 AM.
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I still don't understand why people are talking about writers and that they like "tragic stories" and so on. Please understand one thing. Her story is not completely implemented into the game (probably combination of major bugs, plot holes, narrative issues) and basically her "Infernal engine" questline is completely empty in act3. Writers can write everything they want, but if it is not implemented into the game, they cannot do anything with it. Patch 2 hotfix uses the easiest way how to improve things in such a short time and without much work. One added cutscene and few added lines of text in every act didn't bring new ending or new quest, just polished a little bit the "best possible ending" we currently have available. Writers could already have a masterpiece story with good ending prepared, but there was no way, how this could be implemented in such a short time period after release.
Last edited by Rae; 20/09/23 12:57 PM.
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stranger
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I'm gonna take a step back and be baffled how bg3 recieved such high scores based on act 1 alone despite the frustration the community suffers because of pathetic state of Mithara, Karlach, act 3 coherency and ME3 style ending. This is EA 2.0, I'm gonna step away until they actually finish their story in a year or two, given if they actually bother at all since there are no announcements about eventual Karlach story refactoring nor roadmap.
I stand by my previous point that current Karlach content is boring sobby shit, she has the potential to walk the "upgrade her engine to the moon and decide what to do with newfound power (vengeance/adventure)" path which correlates with general power vs personality theme of the game. If they stand by their cringe sob story which seems to be the case given their late additions to her dialogue after release then I can safely conclude that they successfully emulated the most unpleasant and fun-hating DM I ever met.
Last edited by Aron Dalentor; 20/09/23 09:58 AM.
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