Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> Durge was on the Nautiloid selected for the heist because Balthazar ordered Durge to be there. There is information for that in his room in Moonrise towers. Reason for this is that his assistant was distracted by Durge ("her pet project") and so Balthazar wanted to get rid of Durge to hopefully get his assistant to focus again on her work. I think Orin is only responsible for Durge ending up nearly dead in Moonrise towers

Where exactly is this document? I went back in my saves (as I found nothing on Google aside a fucktonne of guides as to how to get into Balthazar's room, something I've already done) and I couldn't find any trace of information - I found
Balthazar's personal notes 2 and 3 as I have before (sidenote: this also gave me the opportunity to re-read "Elder Brain Domination" again, where Ketheric hints that before the Crown was placed atop the Brain, the Bhaalists already had leadership struggles. However, this must not be related to Orin replacing Durge, as the replacement must have happened super late into the Absolute plot), but haven't found anything else that sheds any light on the period between Orin's betrayal and Durge waking up on the Nautiloid.

Nevertheless, my point still stands - it is INCREDIBLY fucking lucky that Durge ended up on that Nautiloid.

Edit: Now that I think about it - Balthazar prompts no reaction when he sees the Durge again in Act2. You'd think he'd have some sort of reaction given that they both worked together and apparently violated his body too.


It is the book "Clasped Book" in his room in Moonrise Towers, in the book shelf on the east side of the first door to his room (X= -126, Y= -180). I am sorry, I remembered it wrong - I checked it again and it doesn't say that he specifically ordered Durge to be there, just that Kressa Bonedaughter (Balthazars assistant necromancer) saved Durge (Durge is not named but apparantly in a Durge playthrough you can talk with Kressa and she was indeed working on Durge) and is fond of Durge and later in the section he complains that he shouldn't have allowed her to keep her "pet" and ever "since it was shipped onto one of the nautiloids to be deployed, she has been inconsolable" and is distracted. In the mindflayer colony below you can find a note from her speaking about her work and that she makes thralls but is forbidden to study them. "I need a new one, one that Balthazar doesn't know of. A creature of exceptional will, like my dear old pet, can keep fragments of its own mind while affected by the parasite."

So it isn't clear if it was on Balthazars order or not - he clearly wasn't happy that she was distracted by Durge so he had a motive to get rid of Durge (saying Durge will be a great fighter for the absolute). And as she says in her note, that Baltharzar shouldn't know about it if she had a new pet/thrall to study could imply that it was him with the order to get rid of Durge - so she is afraid he would remove her new pet too. If he was just a little unhappy with her but let her work regardless on her pet project she wouldn't have a good reason to keep it secret.

And it sounds like Durge might have been tadpoled by her - but it would be helpful if someone with a Durge playthrough (mine isn't far enough) could check if she says something about that. Because she is interested in studying thralls and she is speaking about Durge having still parts of its own mind despite having a parasite (see above).

Regarding no reaction by Balthazar - it seems like Ketheric gives no reaction to Durges too from what I have heard from others. Maybe bug/no time left/forgot about it...?

And yes, it is incredibly lucky that Durge ended on the SAME Nautiloid as the Emperor says many were sent to look for the prism but he found it first. So other Nautiloids were sent as well and Balthazar writes in his book (mentioned above) that Durge was shipped to ONE of the Nautiloids to be employed not THE Nautiloid to be deployed.


Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> There are acutally several
Nautiloids in the Colony as when you arrive near the brain Tav says they just saw a fleet of Nautiloids leaving (I didn't see anything, was just a voice line from Tav). But all the Nautiloids in the end over Baldurs Gate have to come somehwere, so this would fit.

Again, that doesn't change the fact that it was incredibly lucky to have
a dormant Mind Flayer colony survive for more than ten thousand years since the fall of the Illithid Empire (despite major construction work taking place in the local area, not to mention that the Githyanki would have for sure gone over all the Planes with a fine-tooth comb), and have it house an Elder Brain and Nautiloids. Had they had no Nautiloids to begin with, they would have needed significantly more time to prepare the Absolute plot.

I wasn't trying to invalidate your point but just to add that there are several Nautiloids there. Because I did not see them but my Tav commented on it. So it is possible that people are wondering at the end where all the Nautiloids come from and at the end of act 2 they at least mention that they are there.


Originally Posted by ghettojesusxx
Originally Posted by Cawyden
-> I think the Emperor
not appearing as Balduran might simply be because he wanted to appear in a form that the origins/Tav finds trustworthy. So he appears in different forms for everyone. He could have appeared as Balduran but he isn't really attached to his old appearance anymore so he doesn't care because his real form is now being a mindflayer. And who knows if they would have believed him that he is Balduran as Balduran was likely thought to be lost/dead. Maybe this would even lead to being more sceptical of him.

This is pure speculation.
The Emperor in Act3 says that "I AM an adventurer, just like you, and that I wanted more, so I went to Moonrise". He NEVER once implies that he has gaps in his memories, nor do we as the third person get to look inside his head to piece together the puzzle. Therefore, the only correct interpretation is that he is simply choosing to discard his persona of Balduran, but the reasons as to why, and the reasons as to why he doesn't change his mind later on once he's in the Astral Prism or when talking with Stelmane is completely unknown.


I was trying to give an explanation to why he would not show as Balduran. As you said, we only have what the game is showing and can't read the characters thoughts. And so we have to rely on speculation where we don't have a clear answer. And you and others are also speculating in this thread so I don't see the issue sharing my thoughts. I also never said he has gasps in his memories.

And there is proof that he doesn't miss his old BODY:

"As an illithid, I have far surpassed who I ever was before."

"Rare are those that would openly consider a partnership with a mind flayer. Even those who are on a part of becoming one. It's like I said before - I'm just like you." -> so basically his I AM LIKE YOU is not just I am a human like you but I AM A MINDFLAYER and you are about to become one...

"When I first escaped from the elder brain, I searched for a new vessel. But the longer I inhabited this one, the more it grew on me. I realized that returning to my former self would only impose limitations. Any adavantage I could gain by restoring my original appearance, I already had to hand in the form of magic and that humanoid shape you've come to know" (meaning the dream guardian).

So he doesn't miss his old body, even thinks being a mindflayer is better. He might still think about himself as Balduran. But we also need to keep in mind is that he is not a reliable source. He also tells us "You are not becoming a mindflayer, not while I'm around" as dream guardian and later he wants us to become half Illithid. He is manipulative, he wants us to be his allies, to help him breaking free of the elder brain.

Did you notice that in one dream he was wearing daisys old revealing clothing? He isn't daisy but there are still elements of him trying to be seductive or at least to make us like him, to bind us to him. And if that doesn't work he tries to threaten us (like with the memories of the Duke - I am still not sure if she really was a thrall or if he just showed us some fake "memory" to threaten us with the idea that he could make us a thrall and force us to do things). He decides what he shows us. And this might not what happened. And the Narrator isn't reliable either. I haven't had the dialog but from others I heard (but this still needs to be verified) that he even admits that he made Orpheus or/and the honor guard more menacing to give us more reason to ally with him.

Of course, he didn't think it through that appearing as different persons in the dreams (e.g. my Tav had a male dream guardian and I know Gale had a female one) would make the people more sceptical. Had he just showed up with the same appearance his "I am just an adventurer like you" would have been more believable.

Last edited by Cawyden; 20/09/23 01:38 PM.