Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Someone get Invulska to Larian immediately

Spoilers throughout this post.

So at the time of writing I've played through this game 4 times, focusing on different companions each time, and just finished a playthrough in which I romanced Karlach, so I think I'm ready to have an opinion here now.

To start I'll say I love BG3. I'm really glad Larian gave us this game. Karlach is my favorite character and I do really appreciate that they tried to add some better closure with the epilogue patch.

That being said, it's not enough. I think there are deeper issues with the way she's written into the story beyond just the ending. After four playthoughs, Karlach definitely feels the least finished out of all the companions. It's a shame, because what is there is amazing.

- The first and most important point I want to make, and the one I (like to) think Larian cares the most about, is that becoming emotionally invested in the outcome of Karlach's story just feels bad. Obviously I wasn't in the writing room so I can only speculate, but I think the reason you can't actually save her in the end is because they wanted her story to be a poignant exploration of coming to terms with mortality and bravery, and probably felt that having her survive without making some kind of sacrifice would undercut her arc, but: her arc and survival don't have to be mutually exclusive. If she lives at the end she still lives with her revelations on the nature of strength and bravery as she states in Act 3. She doesn't have to die at the end to experience personal growth. For me, choosing to romance her gave a rather depressing overtone to the entirety of the game because I knew there would be no way to save her, despite the constant hints to the contrary. I can only imagine how it'd feel if I'd focused on her on my first playthrough and didn't know that there was no way to even attempt to save her. Probably confused and thinking I did something wrong, then very disappointed when I realized there's just no way to do it.

On a more personal note, the whole thing feels unnecessarily tragic. She's betrayed and enslaved as a kid, escapes just long enough to be reminded how much she loves life and the world, only to have it all ripped away again, and there's nothing you can do?? Come on, now, Larian. I mean, what's the point of all that? To show that even the best of us can live short, brutal lives and die too soon? We all know that, thank you.

-The second point is that Karlach's story is filled with certain tonal inconsistencies that are somewhat difficult to pin down. She seems to react with hope and optimism to certain game events, but when you actually speak to her she has a rather fatalist outlook, particularly in Act 3. At the beginning of Act 3 she tells you "I'm not going anywhere, I have plans for the future", to bleak fatalism, to "We can handle whatever comes at us together" when she takes you on the date, to "I'm going to die and pretending I'm going to live is a fantasy" after the date, to "hey the steel watch is based on me? maybe there's something that can help me there", to raging at her fate after Gortash is dead, to making dinner plans with old friends in the city and saying "first we save the city, then we save me", etc etc. She's excited about life, then she's ready to die, then she's not.

I don't know if the writers intended this rollercoaster or not, but I'd almost say it gave me a sort of... emotional whiplash. The script doesn't seem to know how it wants either the player or the character to feel. It seems to want to give you hope while she herself tries to take it away from you. She constantly swings from doom and gloom to optimism. She repeatedly insists she will never go back to Avernus; it's simply not an option. At the same time, the game almost seems to encourage you to hope and look for other solutions by letting you reassure her not to give up, you'll keep looking for a way. But there are no other solutions, and she suddenly does a 180 at the end and goes back to Avernus anyway? That felt somewhat jarring. The game reinforces to the player that there may be a solution by letting you tell her so, when in fact there is not. It doesn't feel great.

A secondary point here that confused me is the weird difference between the party's reactions when learning about Gale's impending death versus Karlach's. When Gale learns he has to blow himself up (and he seems resolved to do it), the party's reaction is generally "no way, we can't let him do that, we'll find some other way", but when Karlach discovers that she's on a clock, their reactions universally are "damn, that sucks, it's too bad there's nothing we can do about this". What? We didn't let Gale blow himself up, but we're supposed to be okay with Karlach exploding? We have exhausted literally zero options trying to save her.

-The third point is that it doesn't really make sense that in a place like Forgotten Realms, filled with magic, gods, and other death-defying phenomena, there's nothing that can be done. Hell, the game itself is full of people and things which sometimes feel like they're dangled in front of you to give you hope and lead you to believe you should be able to save her. Off the top of my head:

- You can't ask Raphael (or Mizora for that matter), despite the fact that he probably could easily do it, as evidenced by him removing the tadpoles with a snap of the fingers, which no one else in the game was able to do, even the Emperor. Yes, I know Karlach would hate the idea, but that's what makes it interesting.
- The Gondians built the steel watch based off of Karlach's prototype. She remarks on this with optimism when you learn it, hoping that you might be able to find something at the factory, but she never mentions it again and you can't ask the Gondians. The game even gives you "Enriched Infernal Iron" along the way, leading the player to think that there might be some way to use it for her when it is in fact useless. Why? That seems like a strange connection to write into the game when it's ultimately meaningless.
- You also can't ask the deep gnomes after you help Wulbren
- You can't ask Withers
- You can't use the crown to save her
- Can't use the dominated brain to save her
- Dammon repeatedly says that he's working on a solution up until she just dies and nothing ever comes of it
- As it's been pointed out, this should be an easy fix for the scroll of true resurrection, which even exists in the game. Yes, I'm aware an item like this is a writer's nightmare and a deus ex machina cop-out. It's there, though.
- You can't ask Dame Aylin/Isobel for help from Selune after saving Aylin from the Shadowfell. Seems like an easy fix for Selune and she kind of owes you a big fat favor after all that, not to mention I would think that Aylin/Isobel would be pretty sympathetic to your plight if you're romancing Karlach.
- The rest of the gods. You just prevented the illithid grand design and saved the universe. They all owe you pretty big and I would think saving one mortal's life is a pretty small ask.
- I even saved my one use of Divine Intervention the whole game hoping that I'd be able to use it on her at the end, but no such luck
- But turning into a mind flayer saves her from the engine?? Come on.

All of these things result in the feeling that a specific ending is forced and you can't actually save her and you never actually had a choice. Ultimately, Karlach's 'arc' left me disappointed and somewhat bitter, I suppose because in the end it all felt kind of misleading and hopeless and pointless.

This post is already dangerously close to a rant so I'll end it here and say that there are already a lot of great ideas for solutions to the Karlach story in this thread. Rewrites, more content for her side quest involving an Avernus visit and a permanent fix, they're all good. Thanks for reading.

Larian has always listened to feedback. This isn't surprising, it's expected.

I know Larian listens to feedback but I just have a feeling in my gut that whoever wrote Karlach has severe author-brain and will force feed us this stupid fucking forced tragedy by any means nessicary.

I obviously strongly agree with everything you said, and your second point is the strongest imho. i myself imagined that this rollercoaster was due to rewrites and leftovers from a time when you could actually do something about the whole situation. Emotional whiplash indeed.

(sorry for double posting)

Even assuming this was true (and i hope it isn't) her arc still needs fixes to work as a tragedy with no way out (dialogue changes, item removals, etc.) otherwise it's just an incoherent mess. If someone was really hellbent on making her go boom, they should have accounted for that in dialogue and obvious stuff still lying around (enriched infernal iron anyone?) so even if this was true they didn't do a very good job at it. Tragedies can work, and could've worked for Karlach if they wrote her like that to begin with (which i believe they didn't). That's why i believe a fix is more probable than what you suggested, or maybe it's just my wishful thinking.

Speaking of rewrites and leftovers, I just remembered something she says at camp after you kill Gortash. She says something like "after I die it's between me and the gods", and you can tell her, "No, it's between you, me, and Zariel, in Avernus". She laughs it off as being ridiculous, but the fact that the line was there and the epilogue wasn't patched in until later makes me wonder if they had a beefier questline planned for her where you go to Avernus and solve things for good. They even wrote in a way for you to get to the hells with the diabolist and stealing the hammer. Maybe they realized it'd be too much extra or just didn't like the idea and scrapped it.

They definitely had something, at least regarding the engine fix by some means (gondians and the shit ton of infernal iron), i don't know if they even had some ideas about avernus, but that would seem only logical tbh, it makes sense and it's referenced as you pointed out. In any case, I have the feeling whatever we were supposed to get was scrapped due to time constraints and not due them wanting to remove it all together because it was bad or unwanted. Or at least, as I said before, I HOPE SO. I also hope they are not gonna settle for these quick rewrites and rerouting of her character... She deserves so much more.

Data miners found information that the Avernus location was planned in the middle of Act 3 and it was supposed to be of a size comparable to the Underdark. If they really cut the Upper City and Avernus before release, then that would explain why the entirety of Act 3 rushes the narrative so hard towards the end. Act 3 should have had much more content, if not the most.

Precisely. If I wanted to feel bad I'd ask my employer about my paid vacation.


I could not agree more with the point above. I think I mentioned it here. On top of Karlach's unfulfilling story, the (lack of) reactivity of the companions adds to the "it just feels bad" of it all. As you said, all companions immediatelly accept her inevitable death without a hitch, and their comments are completely lackluster, in a "well, too bad for you" kind of way. To add to the awfulness of the whole thing, Astarion has no comment on Karlach dying whatsoever. It feels like someone forgot to write it, or add it to the game - which if it's true, points to a concerning level of neglect to Karlach's story.

I should add that, whoever wrote Gale had better taken a step back and review his dialogue with Karlach. In my plays I found several moments where he comes across as an insensitive bastard towards Karlach. One such example is in Act 1, right here: Karlach Origin Part 01 - Gale Dialogue . In this moment he mentions he had seen ~real~ hell, while Karlach just stands there listening as if she hadn't JUST come out of it the very same day. There is another scene where Gale asks for companionship while he is depressed about dying/his short time left. Again, he comes across as extremely ignorant, since Karlach, as we know, is also inevitably dying (and arguably in a pit way deeper than his). In this second scene Gale says something that implies Karlach can't understand how it feels to be faced with impending death... It feels really awful, especially because the scene is suppose to provoke empathy towards Gale's predicament. The way these moments are written at the moment makes Gale deserve his own AITA moment.

I understand that it is the tav dialogue. But it does not work for Karlach, unless you want to paint Gale as a complete a-hole. I wish someone had spent more time in story focused QA for these sort of absurd moments to be avoided. If you add all these insensitive moments from the companions to the situation Karlach is in the game already, the narrative does not come as cathartic-tragic - it comes off as mean.

Wanted to make a comment about the 'we're going to fix you' dialogue options that are presented to us throughout the game. I'm starting to think that unlike a lot of other stuff, this one is not an inconsistency, it is meant to be mean.

They FEEL to us like they're teasing (the player and the character) with the opportunity that is never given to us, but I can't shake the feeling that they were implicitly planted there simply for roleplay. Oh, you want to play a stubborn friend/lover and keep talking about salvation with zero back up to your words? Well, you can now! Actual plot relevance to those lines not included.

In fact, I feel like the game kind of punishes you for insisting on hopium, especially in those dialogues where Karlach is taking acceptance route. Because the story wants you to somberly talk about the 'inevitable', not dodge the topic by grasping at straws, apparently.

Hell, yesterday I accidentally discovered that picking a line like that in the very last dialogue actually cuts you out of a portion of a cutscene?


Out of all the hints and unused opportunities and probable remnants of allegedly cut content (the goddamn infernal iron!!!) - the dialogue lines about fixing her, I feel like, are just there precisely to be what they are. Empty. If you feel like having your Tav running in circles - here's your RPG option.

(But not an RPG option to actually follow through on those words in any way, no - sit there and feel bad for giving her false hope)

Yeah, nothing better than being punished for trying to save your friend (or lover) from a condition we should have plenty of ways to fix. Especially how new lines from patch 2 made the thing much worse than it was, peak writting 10/10

By the way! In case anyone wants to get even more pissed off on Karlach's behalf, have you translated/seen people translating her tattoos and horns carvings?

I'll leave the answers here for the curious, 'cause the design is brilliant in terms of the visual storytelling but also adds even more fuel to the "must you kill her after all she already suffered" pile. Also known as my "Zariel is going the f*ck down" pile.


My bad if anyone already brought it up, it's a big thread.

Now that you mentioned that, there's one more thing I just remembered! Do you guys remember Circus of the Last Days Zethino dryad? If your Tav and Karlach are a couple, you can go through a brief questionnaire and it's just a nice addition to the romance overall. However (and I don't remember the exact thing) her third question is something along the lines of "what do you see for (your love interest name) and yourself in 10 years?" you can answer "settled down with a bunch of kids" where Karlach says "not something I had in mind, but fine", whereas if you answer "she'll be dead already" she actually approves. It weirded me out back then but now that you brought up the fact that we potentially are being railroaded into "crash and burn", it kinda makes sense.

Or it could be just me looking for something that isn't there.

P.S. I was away for a few days and I'm so happy to see the thread still going strong! Sending virtual hugs to all of you, soldiers! Stay loud!

Also, I don't know if it's appropriate to share stuff like that here, but I made a short and goofy folk punk song about Karlach, check it out if you want

https://twitter.com/MightyMelvo/status/1703747866668539977

THAT'S THE ANSWER SHE APPROVES OF IN THAT SCENE?!

I convinced myself there wasn't an answer to be approved of in the third question 'cause my Tav would NOT say that and therefore I was NOT clicking that, but holy--

That's weird even when taking the tone swings in the account.

I selected the answer with kids and it looked like she liked the idea. It was during my first playthrough before patch2, so I was still sure, that I'll fix her and we'll have a nice good ending. Oh how badly i was wrong and pissed off at the end...

Yes, that was during my first playthrough before Patch 2. And yes, just like Rae I went with "the kids" but then she took a step towards me where originally (I guess), you need to pick 3 correct answers and take three steps forward. But I defo remember her saying something like "not what I had in mind, maybe lets have a mean goat instead of kids" and then taking a step.

Right?! Reading that just made me sad. There's the whole argument that "her silly & happy personality is a front for her terrible past and maybe the inevitable," but like... the fact they wrote her to approve to that option if true... not like this

I obviously chose the sweet and optimistic option, but giving her the (then current) reality bluntly of the current situation is just cruel - and maybe she approves as taking it as a sign? I dunno, I'm tryna get at what the writers had in mind in their heads when they chose that option to "approve."

inb4 Larian: "oopsies it was a bug it's supposed to disapprove hahaha hotfix #6" (honestly I wish).

Edit:

Thanks you guys for the kind words about the dialog diff tool, just read them

What does she say to the "dead" one, if you remember? I mean I could see her approving in the context of somewhat of a "Who, her? She's a badass crazy fighter no way she lives that long lol" joke, but considering the damn engine...

And yeah she does joke about a mean goat if you say kids.

I also have no idea about the three steps 'cause I misheard and effed up the first question horribly lol... need to replay that someday

(Also I've been trying to compliment your song for minutes now and the forum doesn't let me send that for some reason. Loved it!)