Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Starfield is lame - Bg3 is going to win GOTY - Taking bets.

What does that have to do with the fact that Larian's past 3 games before BG3 released unfinished?

Do you know the muffin man!?

I've refrained from posting in this thread but LMAO this exchange has reached its comedy peak. I don't think you'll be able to get to him Rahaya, any response you give or an attempt to explain as to why someone might not think that BG3 is a gods gift to the gaming world will be rebuffed with a 'no u' or some crazy theory.

Oh man, I know that BG3 ended up being a success and liked by many (I like certain parts of the game also) but never have I thought that consumerism and loyalty to the brand/fanboyism would reach critical mass.

DOS1 and 2 were finished games that later got definitive editions. If you disagree that is a matter of opinion. What was the third game, I think Divinity II Ego Draconis - was that unfinished on release?

I was talking about Bg3, which is what this thread is about, and what I was referencing when I mentioned WOTC. I don't know where you got that it was about those other two games - it sounds like you convinced yourself that is what this was about, or just made up a fantasy argument that didn't exist before, or perhaps it was something you said buried in the overlong emotional screeds you spewed out.

I made a good faith attempt to explain my reasoning and you don't seem like you want to engage in good faith discussion so I am going to invite you to not engage with me further.

I literally criticized Bg3's being released unfinished and not having key modding tools and multiplayer support. The difference is I don't hate Larian, nor do I think it makes Bg3 a bad game.

You CAN provide critical feedback without all the hate and hyperbole was LITERALLY the entire crux of my argument.

Divinity: Dragon Commander. Sven himself said it released in an unsatisfactory state. Did not get a DE. DoS 1, ended super abruptly and was reworked with the EE with a new act along with changes and update to the main storyline and quests. Dos 2, Arx was terrible, had to be reworked, bugs fixed with the DE.

You literally said you blame WOTC over Larian for BG3's Act 3.

It was pointed out to you that they did the same thing with DOS 1 and 2, so there was no reason to believe that BG3 is any different.

I didn't change the conversation to another subject, nor did I make it about other games. This is on topic. The fact that you are trying to gaslight by pretending it's not in context is not surprising, given you've apparently decided to arbitrarily say my responses were emotional based on....zero evidence. Good faith attempts *don't* resort to character assassination of dismissing people as emotional or pretentious sneering about how sad we must be, they engage with what was actually said. You have been doing the former.

To wit:

I am aware of what your Hasbro theory is. It fails on the account of one simple fact: Hasbro/WOTC did not fund the development of BG3. It does not matter who is the CEO or what their fiscal year looks like, because they are not on the hook financially for the game that would give them any kind of leverage over when it is released. Larian is.

You are free to disengage.

I hope the next person you respond to gets the actual engagement first.

SNIP - Here we go, so I DIDNT say that - someone else said that - and you ploncked it onto my argument. So, basically YOU or whoever said that would need to prove that point, not me, right?


You are WAY off. Wow, is that what you had been thinking? How did you even get there?!

Look, and I mean this sincerely, you don't understand ANYTHING, and I think it's beyond any human that exists skills to explain it to you. Just stop.

Is this not you blaming WoTC/Hasbro right here?

Tell me again what you did not say.

I'll wait.


You were talking about criticisms of the game.

At which point I asked you for this evidence as we were just talking about criticisms of the game. And I asked to find out what criticisms you were responding to had 'evidence to the contrary.'

You responded with Hasbro's CEO and fiscal year.

My guy, you don't get to talk about people not understanding things.

Happy to. I never said anything about DOS1 or DOS2 in any statement I made about WOTC. So I don't have to address that.

I never said anything about DOS1 or DOS2 in any statement I made about WOTC. So I don't have to address that.


I never said anything about DOS1 or DOS2 in any statement I made about WOTC. So I don't have to address that.


I never said anything about DOS1 or DOS2 in any statement I made about WOTC. So I don't have to address that.

Keep reading them, eventually one will sink in.




Lets try an experiment. And this is crazy and I am 100% sure this won't work as I fervently understand that you are IMPERVIOUS to information - a super power no one would ever want.

Lets try you answering the two questions I gave you:

1. How long has Chris Cocks been CEO of Hasbro?
2. What is Hasbro's FISCAL year start/end?


Just humor me.

The point is this:
1. BG3 released with a latter half that some would described as "unfinished"
2. You said you could not defend this, but that you blamed WoTC/Hasbro for this
3. It was pointed out that we actually have a very good reason to believe that Larian is the one responsible for this, because their previous few games released in a similar state, when they had nothing to do with WoTC or Hasbro.

Great.

1) I am not in agreement that DOS1 and 2 were unfinished when they were released. If you have that opinion then so be it. But this is an opinion shared by some people and not by others so given that you would need to prove - objectively - that they were unfinished - this feels like a waste of time. So I don't encourage it or really care. To repeat, I don't care about this at all. It's stupid.

2) It has nothing to do with my argument and therefore I don't have to address it. Again, I don't care what you think about the state of DOS1, 2 or divinity dragon commander. It's irrelevant to what i was saying. I don't care.

3) it's VERY clear you don't even understand what I was actually saying. My argument was based on contracts, corporate thinking, and fiscal needs. It was based on a strategic assessment of how corporations and CEO's think and do business. How that effects the state of games. It was kind of a high concept way to look at the theme of this thread.

In case you missed it. I don't care about DOS1 or DOS2. Not even a little. Has nothing to do with the point I was making.

Hey, just want to make sure you got what I said about not caring about DOS and DOS2.

No, if you are going to resort to insults, it is time you humor me.

What about this exchange says you said ANYTHING about DOS 1 or 2?

Starfield is exactly what I thought it would be -- Fallout 4 in space. I am NOT the target audience.

However, watching some of Oxhorn's videos, it's by worlds better than I thought. It very much kept the strengths of Fallout 4. At least some NPCs are actually decently animated, if perhaps only for Bethesda standards. I came in expecting nothing, and I saw they made decent improvements (if we consider Fallout 4 the base template).

Unfortunately for them, no man's sky was seemingly under development ever since it flopped? I had honestly no idea about that, but it was. It's also multiplayer compatible, which I believe Starfield isn't. It's quite possible that no man's sky, in all its quirkiness, is the better game. Bg3 can only be compared to to its predecessors, who, without the lense of nostalgia aren't actually... all that exceptional in every aspect.

It's quite possible Bg3 will get the win to send a message. But... I also don't think it deserves it. It's not a true 9/10 game, not in its current state. I don't care if it beats Starfield or not. They're both unworthy games as far as I am concerned.

How about you stop acting so weird?

I don't care that you don't care about DOS1 and DOS2. You "not caring" about DOS1 and DOS2 is kind of irrelevant.

Your argument based off "corporate thinking" is one take. Other people are making a very reasonable argument based off Larian's prior behavior and record. If you watched someone make the same mistake 3 times in a row, it seems a weak argument to claim that it was something special about the third time that led to them making the same mistake. Imagine the following scenario: We watch a man open up a restaurant multiple times.

The first time, it burns down.
The second time, it burns down.
The third time, it burns down a week after he gets into a fight with a customer.

You say: "Hey, I think it was that customer that burned his restaurant down!"
I say: "But what about the previous two times when that customer wasn't there? I think he's the one burning his restaurants down."

And then for some reason you insist: "NO, WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE PREVIOUS TWO RESTAURANTS. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE PREVIOUS TWO RESTAURANTS. YOU DON'T GET TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT BASED OFF THE PREVIOUS TWO RESTAURANTS! MY CUSTOMER ARGUMENT WAS JUST TOO HIGH-CONCEPT FOR YOU. YOU DON'T GET IT."

Do you see why this is obnoxious and silly?

As for "proving it objectively", nobody can "prove" such a thing objectively; no one can prove ANY judgment about ANY video game objectively; you can't prove that the state of BG3's act 3 being bad - something you admit yourself - "objectively". All that can be said is that this was the general sentiment at the time, and point to the fact that DEs were made that reworked the latter half of these games to try to improve them.

Edit: Also for the love of god, man, just *state your argument*. I promise you that your "high concept" argument based off fiscal needs and corporate thinking is not nearly as mindblowing as you think it is. Instead of just continuosuly going "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY ARGUMENT" and then, when people ask you to explain it, just asking basic simple questions like who the CEO of Hasbro is, just *explain your argument in clear and concise language.*

Diablo 4 is almost dead already. It's a game of no consequence and no impact. That might be fine for other games, but not a life service trying-to-be-WOW.

We're also apparently getting an Assassin's Creed title early October, I just know little about it. I do not have time to play it at the moment.

Seeing how this whole conversation is going in circles I might as well have some fun.

1. Cocks has served as Chief Executive Officer of Hasbro since February 2022. Prior to that, he served as President and Chief Operating Officer of Wizards of the Coast and Digital Gaming since 2021 and prior to that served as President of Wizards of the Coast since 2016, when he joined Hasbro from Microsoft.

2. Fiscal year is January-December.

Here you go Blackheifer, now tell us why were these questions so important to you.

But now you have to humor me.

1. What is the best way to fillet a fish?
2. When is the vernal equinox?
3. What is the best Latin dance for beginners?

- So Chris Cocks took the reigns of Hasbro in February of 2022.

- Hasbro has a Fiscal start/end of January to December (this is actually not common - companies often have years that end in March or October)

- So Chris has only been in the CEO slot for about 1.5 years. He came from the WOTC digital division and his overall plan is to move Hasbro properties into the digital age.

- He has made some good and bad decisions:

- Bad -The OGL decision was not a good one and I think he realized that. Going after your own free marketing for a few dollars here or there isn't a sound strategy. Enforcement would be a nightmare and it would cause a lot of bad blood. They ended up walking it back - or spinning it into something else. whatever.

- Good - In August 2023 they announced the sale of the Media divisions of D&D, film and TV for 500 Million to Lionsgate. They bought it for 4 Billion. This was a very good decision as they had never made any money here and the whole industry is going through rapid changes, not making money, streaming drama and it's a really risky property to hold onto. Despite being a good decision it was still a 3.5 billion dollar write-off of the value of those divisions. It puts a lot of pressure on Chris to prove his strategy will work.

- Keep in mind, even though they announced it this August, it had been planned and announced by Chris internally for a long time.

- Also Bg3 was released in August 2023 - to rave reviews and to date has made between 500-700 Million in total sales.

- Bg3 holds a license with WOTC/Hasbro for use of the D&D IP limited to Bg3. I do NOT have the details of this license or the amounts that Hasbro is slated to pocket from the sale of the game. I WISH I could get a look at it but it's not public information.

- Chris Cocks stated in August (end of) that Bg3 had made more money FOR HASBRO than its entire movie and tv division had in the last TEN YEARS!! I tried to get a numerical breakdown of what the profit loss for the TV/Movie div did in the last 10 years but I only have guesswork and fragments. They never release what the marketing costs are and that stymies my efforts.

- However, we *think* Honor Among Thieves cost about 300 million with marketing and it made 208 Million at the Box Office. it was pretty quickly sold to all the streaming services - which is what we call a Fire sale - probably because they knew they were selling the division anyway.

- Meanwhile, BG3 had a $100 Million budget, and maybe another $30-50 M for marketing (at MOST) - and is clocking in at 500-700 million SO FAR. It's expected to hit the 1 Billion mark after the Xbox release and within the next year.

OK, and here is the REALLY important part.

- Swen Vinke in one of his last interviews indicated that they were looking at DOS3 for the next game and not to continue the Bg3 story or return to the forgotten realms but it would depend.

- This was a huge bomb going off - for the CEO of Larian to make a statement like this meant they were not happy with aspects of the relationship with Hasbro or the Licensing agreement - or both. And hey, maybe creatively they just *wanted* to return to Rivellon - but this didn't really make a lot of sense to me.

- I think Hasbro may have had time stipulations/penalties in the agreement they had with Larian. Same thing Bethesda did to Obsidian Entertainment over Fallout NV. Obsidian lost a ton of money on a technicality despite making a wildly successful RPG and probably the best Fallout post Black Isle to this day.

- I can't PROVE this 100% - but it's telling that the release was just in time for Q4/End of year sales numbers when Hasbro is down 37% revenue. Chris needed to show - and he has - that his pivot of the company is paying dividends despite the short term loss - but I bet you that release date was REALLY important to Chris and Hasbro.

- But it WASN'T important to Larian. They had wethered a global pandemic that slowed down production massively, so they were WAY off schedule just like everyone else and I can't find a FISCAL reason for LARIAN, in priori, to have made a decision to release the game early.

Anyway. That's all I was trying to say. Now I need a nap.

Uh, oh. The fish filleting *and* the Latin dance community??

Okay so I didn't get a report but I'm checking the forums briefly as I am a little busy lately.

Getting reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal tired of the behavior in this thread.
Some substantive and significant points in this topic have been made, so here we go: Make your arguments in a CIVIL manner and at least ATTEMPT to be PLEASANT HUMAN BEINGS to one another.

Please make an attempt to reduce the snark, insulting, belittling, accusing, mocking, and borderline flaming. Please try to respect each other.

I'm joking, I'm joking. I'm done.

(I missed you Zarubbabel, good to see that those evil Dubail call girls didn't get to you.)