Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

(sorry for double posting)

Even assuming this was true (and i hope it isn't) her arc still needs fixes to work as a tragedy with no way out (dialogue changes, item removals, etc.) otherwise it's just an incoherent mess. If someone was really hellbent on making her go boom, they should have accounted for that in dialogue and obvious stuff still lying around (enriched infernal iron anyone?) so even if this was true they didn't do a very good job at it. Tragedies can work, and could've worked for Karlach if they wrote her like that to begin with (which i believe they didn't). That's why i believe a fix is more probable than what you suggested, or maybe it's just my wishful thinking.

Speaking of rewrites and leftovers, I just remembered something she says at camp after you kill Gortash. She says something like "after I die it's between me and the gods", and you can tell her, "No, it's between you, me, and Zariel, in Avernus". She laughs it off as being ridiculous, but the fact that the line was there and the epilogue wasn't patched in until later makes me wonder if they had a beefier questline planned for her where you go to Avernus and solve things for good. They even wrote in a way for you to get to the hells with the diabolist and stealing the hammer. Maybe they realized it'd be too much extra or just didn't like the idea and scrapped it.

They definitely had something, at least regarding the engine fix by some means (gondians and the shit ton of infernal iron), i don't know if they even had some ideas about avernus, but that would seem only logical tbh, it makes sense and it's referenced as you pointed out. In any case, I have the feeling whatever we were supposed to get was scrapped due to time constraints and not due them wanting to remove it all together because it was bad or unwanted. Or at least, as I said before, I HOPE SO. I also hope they are not gonna settle for these quick rewrites and rerouting of her character... She deserves so much more.

Data miners found information that the Avernus location was planned in the middle of Act 3 and it was supposed to be of a size comparable to the Underdark. If they really cut the Upper City and Avernus before release, then that would explain why the entirety of Act 3 rushes the narrative so hard towards the end. Act 3 should have had much more content, if not the most.

Precisely. If I wanted to feel bad I'd ask my employer about my paid vacation.


I could not agree more with the point above. I think I mentioned it here. On top of Karlach's unfulfilling story, the (lack of) reactivity of the companions adds to the "it just feels bad" of it all. As you said, all companions immediatelly accept her inevitable death without a hitch, and their comments are completely lackluster, in a "well, too bad for you" kind of way. To add to the awfulness of the whole thing, Astarion has no comment on Karlach dying whatsoever. It feels like someone forgot to write it, or add it to the game - which if it's true, points to a concerning level of neglect to Karlach's story.

I should add that, whoever wrote Gale had better taken a step back and review his dialogue with Karlach. In my plays I found several moments where he comes across as an insensitive bastard towards Karlach. One such example is in Act 1, right here: Karlach Origin Part 01 - Gale Dialogue . In this moment he mentions he had seen ~real~ hell, while Karlach just stands there listening as if she hadn't JUST come out of it the very same day. There is another scene where Gale asks for companionship while he is depressed about dying/his short time left. Again, he comes across as extremely ignorant, since Karlach, as we know, is also inevitably dying (and arguably in a pit way deeper than his). In this second scene Gale says something that implies Karlach can't understand how it feels to be faced with impending death... It feels really awful, especially because the scene is suppose to provoke empathy towards Gale's predicament. The way these moments are written at the moment makes Gale deserve his own AITA moment.

I understand that it is the tav dialogue. But it does not work for Karlach, unless you want to paint Gale as a complete a-hole. I wish someone had spent more time in story focused QA for these sort of absurd moments to be avoided. If you add all these insensitive moments from the companions to the situation Karlach is in the game already, the narrative does not come as cathartic-tragic - it comes off as mean.

Wanted to make a comment about the 'we're going to fix you' dialogue options that are presented to us throughout the game. I'm starting to think that unlike a lot of other stuff, this one is not an inconsistency, it is meant to be mean.

They FEEL to us like they're teasing (the player and the character) with the opportunity that is never given to us, but I can't shake the feeling that they were implicitly planted there simply for roleplay. Oh, you want to play a stubborn friend/lover and keep talking about salvation with zero back up to your words? Well, you can now! Actual plot relevance to those lines not included.

In fact, I feel like the game kind of punishes you for insisting on hopium, especially in those dialogues where Karlach is taking acceptance route. Because the story wants you to somberly talk about the 'inevitable', not dodge the topic by grasping at straws, apparently.

Hell, yesterday I accidentally discovered that picking a line like that in the very last dialogue actually cuts you out of a portion of a cutscene?


Out of all the hints and unused opportunities and probable remnants of allegedly cut content (the goddamn infernal iron!!!) - the dialogue lines about fixing her, I feel like, are just there precisely to be what they are. Empty. If you feel like having your Tav running in circles - here's your RPG option.

(But not an RPG option to actually follow through on those words in any way, no - sit there and feel bad for giving her false hope)

Yeah, nothing better than being punished for trying to save your friend (or lover) from a condition we should have plenty of ways to fix. Especially how new lines from patch 2 made the thing much worse than it was, peak writting 10/10

By the way! In case anyone wants to get even more pissed off on Karlach's behalf, have you translated/seen people translating her tattoos and horns carvings?

I'll leave the answers here for the curious, 'cause the design is brilliant in terms of the visual storytelling but also adds even more fuel to the "must you kill her after all she already suffered" pile. Also known as my "Zariel is going the f*ck down" pile.


My bad if anyone already brought it up, it's a big thread.

Now that you mentioned that, there's one more thing I just remembered! Do you guys remember Circus of the Last Days Zethino dryad? If your Tav and Karlach are a couple, you can go through a brief questionnaire and it's just a nice addition to the romance overall. However (and I don't remember the exact thing) her third question is something along the lines of "what do you see for (your love interest name) and yourself in 10 years?" you can answer "settled down with a bunch of kids" where Karlach says "not something I had in mind, but fine", whereas if you answer "she'll be dead already" she actually approves. It weirded me out back then but now that you brought up the fact that we potentially are being railroaded into "crash and burn", it kinda makes sense.

Or it could be just me looking for something that isn't there.

P.S. I was away for a few days and I'm so happy to see the thread still going strong! Sending virtual hugs to all of you, soldiers! Stay loud!

Also, I don't know if it's appropriate to share stuff like that here, but I made a short and goofy folk punk song about Karlach, check it out if you want

https://twitter.com/MightyMelvo/status/1703747866668539977

THAT'S THE ANSWER SHE APPROVES OF IN THAT SCENE?!

I convinced myself there wasn't an answer to be approved of in the third question 'cause my Tav would NOT say that and therefore I was NOT clicking that, but holy--

That's weird even when taking the tone swings in the account.

I selected the answer with kids and it looked like she liked the idea. It was during my first playthrough before patch2, so I was still sure, that I'll fix her and we'll have a nice good ending. Oh how badly i was wrong and pissed off at the end...

Yes, that was during my first playthrough before Patch 2. And yes, just like Rae I went with "the kids" but then she took a step towards me where originally (I guess), you need to pick 3 correct answers and take three steps forward. But I defo remember her saying something like "not what I had in mind, maybe lets have a mean goat instead of kids" and then taking a step.

Right?! Reading that just made me sad. There's the whole argument that "her silly & happy personality is a front for her terrible past and maybe the inevitable," but like... the fact they wrote her to approve to that option if true... not like this

I obviously chose the sweet and optimistic option, but giving her the (then current) reality bluntly of the current situation is just cruel - and maybe she approves as taking it as a sign? I dunno, I'm tryna get at what the writers had in mind in their heads when they chose that option to "approve."

inb4 Larian: "oopsies it was a bug it's supposed to disapprove hahaha hotfix #6" (honestly I wish).

Edit:

Thanks you guys for the kind words about the dialog diff tool, just read them

What does she say to the "dead" one, if you remember? I mean I could see her approving in the context of somewhat of a "Who, her? She's a badass crazy fighter no way she lives that long lol" joke, but considering the damn engine...

And yeah she does joke about a mean goat if you say kids.

I also have no idea about the three steps 'cause I misheard and effed up the first question horribly lol... need to replay that someday

(Also I've been trying to compliment your song for minutes now and the forum doesn't let me send that for some reason. Loved it!)

She actually approves of the ''settle down with kids'' answer more (by one point exactly lol). At least according to the datamined dialogue

Screenshot of the dialogue in the lovetest
http://imgur.com/hIvgqHc

I don't remember what she says if you go with "she will die", I wasn't really interested in picking it (duh), but I'll try to find a YouTube video or something just outta curiosity. I want to know now.


Thank you very much! I appreciate that

There you go. Maybe it was a bug then, but I clearly remember seeing this "Karlach approves" prompt picking "she will be dead" option.

Nice find! You're right - it's under Dialogs/Act3/Wyrm/WYR_Circus_LoveDryad.html for those curious.

Edit: Also Mighty Melvo! Props on the singing I wish I used my Twitter more lmao

Can tell for a fact that the game doesn't give the "Karlach approves" notification there, which is just mean in this case ahah

Perhaps a bug (or, if probably giving too much credit, a feature of where you aren't supposed to know she quietly liked the idea)

Ah well I'm not regretting picking the softer optimistic version either way.