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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's pretty charitable to describe "we figured people wouldn't want to see an ending slideshow in a genre for which ending slideshows have become an indispensable and expected staple" as reasoning.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's pretty charitable to describe "we figured people wouldn't want to see an ending slideshow in a genre for which ending slideshows have become an indispensable and expected staple" as reasoning. This must be the innovation that Larian's brought to the CRPG genre that Reddit keeps telling me exists.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I can't help but wonder if this was due to tight deadlines or budget constraints. Apparently not - see Community Update #24, it has a paragraph which explains their reasoning. In fact, after CU 19, I personally have a lot of doubts about the answer in CU 24. The inconsistencies and gaps in the game are too noticeable. It's just that if people change the concept it happens more smoothly. But, in any case, we won’t know, now I just want and hope that they will refine and expand what is in the game (Although I will remember the situation with the upper city for a long time) For starters, I would really like to see the normal ending of Astarion x)
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I found myself thinking "Gale you d**che, cast darkenss on your friend Astarion already!" (Oh and while your at it Gale, maybe help our mind flayered best girl already... Illusion!)
Also, if my memory serves me right, Jaheira was in BG2 and was around for a curing of vampirism via Bodhis black heart. Theres a lore friendly way to improve this!
It doesnt even need a long cutscene, just Jaheira saying "Do we have the body of the one who enthralled him? There IS a cure.
(Also I just finished my first playthrough, 180 hours all up [yeah I pretty much soaked up every side quest I could find lol], and good lord Larian, what you've achieved with this game is astonishing. This is the ONLY game that actually had me in tears at one point (Astarions mini-meltdown after finishing his major quest, such an on-point depiction of trauma. That acting was superb). I really hope your staff get a nice end of year bonus out of this one, they earned it!)
Last edited by shayneo; 28/09/23 11:58 PM. Reason: more thoughts
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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In the ending there is a dialog line about going on adventure to search for a cure for him. So they added it in because having him be cured was apparently to much for the game scope (would be nice for DLC though).
But maybe as consolation - Clerics (and if you don't play one you have Shadowheart as possible companion) can do divine intervention - of course limited in the game due to gameplay reasons but it would be a way to ask regularly (I think once per week?) your god(dess) for a divine intervention to cure Astarion. Normally it is up to the DM but I think a cure isn't out of scope.
We also know a powerfull wizard, Elminster and Gale has connections and a lot of knowledge (or at least access to books/information) too. So finding a wish spell / cure otherwise is not completely out of the picture.
So it isn't hopeless, just not shown directly in game but the dialog line given already implies that they were thinking about it and likely wanted to give players a way to address it.
And regarding the life span - if he is cured then he will (I suppose) have his normal life span again and as elf live 700 - 1000 years I think? And as Vampire spawn longer if not killed before it. But players can live longer too based on race and class - e.g. monks get with level 15 timeless body and don't age anymore? And something similar exists for druid (I think level 18/19)... and possibly other classes or with other possibilities as well. It isn't in the game right now but it isn't hopeless.
But I understand wanting to have a happy ending with your love interest and ideally it should be shown in the game directly.
Otherwise I agree completely, the whole having him running away from the sun and others just standing there giving a dry comment was NOT OK. Both if romanced or not - it is bad enough that you don't get ending scenes with your companions if they aren't romanced (and some romanced ones aren't great either). We need an opportunity to be able to speak with all of them to say goodbyes or make plans etc. even with camp followers and allies.
Last edited by Cawyden; 30/09/23 10:22 AM.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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In the ending there is a dialog line about going on adventure to search for a cure for him. So they added it in because having him be cured was apparently to much for the game scope (would be nice for DLC though).
But maybe as consolation - Clerics (and if you don't play one you have Shadowheart as possible companion) can do divine intervention - of course limited in the game due to gameplay reasons but it would be a way to ask regularly (I think once per week?) your god(dess) for a divine intervention to cure Astarion. Normally it is up to the DM but I think a cure isn't out of scope.
We also know a powerfull wizard, Elminster and Gale has connections and a lot of knowledge (or at least access to books/information) too. So finding a wish spell / cure otherwise is not completely out of the picture.
So it isn't hopeless, just not shown directly in game but the dialog line given already implies that they were thinking about it and likely wanted to give players a way to address it.
And regarding the life span - if he is cured then he will (I suppose) have his normal life span again and as elf live 700 - 1000 years I think? And as Vampire spawn longer if not killed before it. But players can live longer too based on race and class - e.g. monks get with level 15 timeless body and don't age anymore? And something similar exists for druid (I think level 18/19)... and possibly other classes or with other possibilities as well. It isn't in the game right now but it isn't hopeless.
But I understand wanting to have a happy ending with your love interest and ideally it should be shown in the game directly.
Otherwise I agree completely, the whole having him running away from the sun and others just standing there giving a dry comment was NOT OK. Both if romanced or not - it is bad enough that you don't get ending scenes with your companions if they aren't romanced (and some romanced ones aren't great either). We need an opportunity to be able to speak with all of them to say goodbyes or make plans etc. even with camp followers and allies. I'm, personally, not the sort of person who tries to headcanon my way out of bad writing. I understand what you're saying, where you can kick back and imagine what your characters, or characters, would do after the game ends. But at the end of the day, for me, if it's not explicitly shown or stated, or implied or insinuated, it doesn't happen. At no point in the story-line does anyone express these sort of things as options, or even say, "Hey, maybe we can do this". So, at the end of the day, it just doesn't happen in my mind. Doubly so because all those characters are the primary ones hurling insults.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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That ending scene is so incredibly tone deaf, I'd like to know if the person who wrote it knows more about the character than just "vampire".
Tho it's not the only instance in which Larian's handling of Astarion (knowing his backstory) feels uncomfortable.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Also, if my memory serves me right, Jaheira was in BG2 and was around for a curing of vampirism via Bodhis black heart. Theres a lore friendly way to improve this! As a matter of fact, she might literally be the person who was cured of vampirism! I had forgotten about this, but if we take the approach that the most popular path is the quasi-canon path, Jaheira was turned into a vampire by Bodhi and cured by the player character. Even if she wasn't, she almost certainly knows that it happened to someone else in the group. You can write Astarion's quest the way they wrote it, and you can put Jaheira in the game, but you can't do both. This is a pretty flagrant mistake. having him be cured was apparently to much for the game scope (would be nice for DLC though). This idea that companion endings could be expanded on in DLC doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because Larian would be releasing content that would only apply to certain playthroughs. Anyone who did the evil Astarion path, for instance, would have no use for a DLC about curing his vampirism. Anyone who let Karlach die or sent her to Avernus alone would have no use for a DLC about fixing her engine. Ultimately I think the only way that DLC can get Larian out of these endings is by taking the Fallout 3 approach, where the DLC literally changes the ending of the game so that it's no longer the end of the game and you have some new stuff to do.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Larion doesn't do DLC's from what I understand.
What I need is a proper ending to what we have. No love interests running away with a jest thrown after his departing back. Which is, as others have stated, totally tone deaf.
I understand that originally there was supposed to be a 6 month later get together party thing going on.
So fine. Reinstate it please Larian not just for Astarion but just about everyone playing the game mentions how awful the endings are played out.
For Astarion we chatted to Jaheira or she left a non ascended Astarion a note on his bed in camp giving us a quest (as in him and any other character who has nothing else to do or is romanced with him), instructions on the ritual and when we all show up at the party he's cured, don't have to do much with it, same body, no fangs slightly more skin colour. Easy peasy. VA recall for a bit of extra dialogue. Everyone is happy. An ascended Astarion wouldn't want to associate with us lesser folks so wouldn't show up most likely but if he did that would also work, he can just play his normal ascended 'I'm superior to the lot of you' with his Tav spawn in tow or if Tav didn't go that route they show up alone but happy. So simple.
I'd like to see a bit more but its not necessary, if they can do the above and make it so a non ascended cured romanced Astarion is still with his Tav and they are happy I'll be totally happy.
I'd be happy if I hadn't romanced him as well btw. He has a true redemption arc throughout the game if you went the good route with him and Larian just basically threw it out the window in the last few minutes.
None of this is difficult. Its all down to 'if this happened then that dialogue' which is quite straightforward pogramming. Doesn't need a shed load of character dialogue, a couple of lines from each character, a bit of exposition on the world then it can revert to something like the Act 1 party for a few minutes, credits roll.
Last edited by Bethra; 01/10/23 01:09 PM.
# Justice for Astarion
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jul 2023
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Just came here to say that BG2 gives you a way to cure being a vampire spawn, but others beat me to it. I was surprised this angle wasn't explored in the game. I know Astarion has been a vampire spawn for a lot longer than your love interest in BG2, but . . . We have the ingredients to at least be able to discuss a cure. We have a Lathander temple in the game (it's not Amaunator but I think Lathander absorbed Amaunator anyway), we have Cazador's heart, we have Jaheira knowing about this . . .
Edit: I mean, regardless of whether they actually put this into the game I'll just headcanon it happens afterwards. Vampires are cool and all, but it would be such a ridiculously happy ending for Astarion to be cured, walk in the sun, not be hungry, reconnect to the elven spirit, etc.
Last edited by celestielf; 01/10/23 05:02 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Apr 2021
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There are numerous ways to cure vampirism in DnD 5e and we have at least one at our disposal from the start - Withers, which is completely ignored.
To be fair, though, Tav (at least romancing Tav) can say "I will find the way to make you walk in the sun" with Astation's response "It will give us more time to be together" (yes, as if it was not promised by Tav many times before).
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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There are numerous ways to cure vampirism in DnD 5e and we have at least one at our disposal from the start - Withers, which is completely ignored. Yep to that, plus how many other gods have we possibly done favours for throughout the game, Selune and Mystra are also possibilities for obtaining a wish spell. One of the three should be amenable to persuasion. Withers can certainly do it for Astarion and very easily considering he's right there, maybe after seeing Astarion choosing not to ascend he thinks he's suffered enough. I don't think unascended Astarion (enslaved and tortured for 200 years, awesome redemption arc and gets punished for it) and Karlach (a total innocent) are treated the same way the other romance options are. I don't want poignant, I want the same chance at a happy end as other romance options have (dependant on my choices), I'm happy to work for it but the options aren't there.
# Justice for Astarion
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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Are we sure there isn't more to his ending under Cazador's place? I got the distinct impression there was more to the place underneath, a puzzle that was bugged or something. I tried so many things, included bringing Cazador's body to a coffin near what looked like a sealed door down below... But nothing seemed to work.
But be that as it may, I didn't even romance Astarion and I loved how he was written and how his story progressed... And then came that ending at the docks. He starts to burn and I'm like "No, no Astarion, run! Or let me help you!"
And then Shadowheart is like "Well his love affair with the sun is over!"
And it felt like... What? Do we... Not get to help him? Do we... Not care?
It felt so tone deaf it completely soured me to my enter ending experience.
Also I gotta say the generic "suddenly your love interest is in a room with you and you talk about the future despite talking about it prior to the end" felt tacked on too and took me out of it, but that's fine I suppose.
Honestly this game was 10/10 up until the end. All it needs it a bit of tweaks at the end and it's golden.
The funny thing is, I like the Astarion ending if you don't care that much about him. That's the consequences of not caring. But it feels like a punishment for people who put in the work of trying to help him be a better person. It felt strange because it didn't match the tone of a party of friends who actually cared about him. At least offer him an umbrella, or have someone cast darkness as mentioned, or maybe even just a "He's going to be alright?" and then seeing him go down the sewers with a "See you tonight!“ or *something*.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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But it feels like a punishment for people who put in the work of trying to help him be a better person. This is the part that trips me up the most. The devs talk about how his whole story is about trauma stemming from abuse, and how Astarion feels like he's been just used and abused for his life. If you actually engage with him from that perspective, and push him to heal, this just happens. But if you go down the ascended path, his ending is much more fleshed out, and he seems ostensibly happier than he was in the unascended ending. Even though all the ascended ending is, is him becoming Cazador 2.0 and restarting the exact same cycle of abuse he went through, just with other people. Kinda messed up if you asked me.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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When I first romanced him, I had full intentions of ascending him. My character was mostly good but I wanted him to be completely free.
When I ascended him though, everything about our relationship changed, as you all know, and I didn't like it for my character. Their relationship was tender and nice and I was making real progress with his healing. So I reloaded.
To know that I missed out on a more satisfying experience because I decided he deserved to deal with his issues in a healthy way pisses me off.
#JusticeForAstarion
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2023
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But it feels like a punishment for people who put in the work of trying to help him be a better person. This is the part that trips me up the most. The devs talk about how his whole story is about trauma stemming from abuse, and how Astarion feels like he's been just used and abused for his life. If you actually engage with him from that perspective, and push him to heal, this just happens. But if you go down the ascended path, his ending is much more fleshed out, and he seems ostensibly happier than he was in the unascended ending. Even though all the ascended ending is, is him becoming Cazador 2.0 and restarting the exact same cycle of abuse he went through, just with other people. Kinda messed up if you asked me. My thoughts exactly. He doesn't even need to be healed from vampirism, or to immediately be able to walk in the sun without the worm. All he needs is an ending scene that doesn't turn all his pain and struggle into a tasteless joke. But it's not just the ending. Overall it feels like more work was put into his ascended dialogue. And mechanically you only benefit if you ascend him (the bite and the extra damage). So like... I sacrifice all that good quality writing and extra damage because I want to do what's right for the character and in the end both me and that character get slapped in the face with a wet dirty rag.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Adding my voice to the choir that his ending felt totally off. It gets even more tragic if RNGesus is with you and his comments are being put first in line with him commenting that the sun is up and he is not burning (all with a hopeful smile) just to light up a bit later. I could have accepted his flippant line and running off if there wouldn't have been a stupid remark from a random companion and if he had not run far (maybe just to the nearest shade) so even a non-romanced companion could have gotten a conversation with him to offer some solace. We get to talk with Gale about his plans for the crown, get to send off Lae'zel, deal with Orpheus/talk to the Emperor and see Karlach burn up (and maybe send her to hell to save her). But Astarion was not worth a little cutscene? I just did a duo-run with him, so the only people on the docks were him and Illithid-Orphy, so I at least did not get Gale's tone-deaf remark, but what I got instead was not much better. It cuts to your character's sad face as you stupidly watch him run away and the narrator says: "Astarion's days in the sun are behind him. The best you can hope is that he finds darkness, and the comfort it once gave him" Then your character smiles and the narrator continues: "Knowing him, he probably will. Comfort was always one of his specialities. Especially when it was his own." Like what? That was so random. I can't even recall a single moment in all three Acts where that was a thing more than a jokey remark from him? That said, I like his endings narratively, both the ascended douchebag ending and his sad, but hopeful spawn ending. The only thing they would need to add for the last romance conversation in the spawn ending is a bit more closeness. Especially when he asks for your reassurance once again you should be able to give him some physical comfort - maybe just a hug to echo that scene in Act 2 or take his hand and give him the "That is what I want" line. Doesn't even need a new recording, just a new, more intimate animation. It's not strange that he asks for reassurance again - a few weeks with you don't wipe away 200 years of self-loathing and now the dice are cast anew. Without the tadpole you would have to agree to live with all of his drawbacks. But, man, a little bit more emotional intimacy would have been nice here. And while we're at it - what's up with the last "kiss" before the grand finale? "This may be the last time for a kiss" "Then let's make it count" *quick peck* Can we get some passion over here? We could die horribly any second. 
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member
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Joined: Sep 2023
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It cuts to your character's sad face as you stupidly watch him run away and the narrator says: "Astarion's days in the sun are behind him. The best you can hope is that he finds darkness, and the comfort it once gave him" Then your character smiles and the narrator continues: "Knowing him, he probably will. Comfort was always one of his specialities. Especially when it was his own." Like what? That was so random. I can't even recall a single moment in all three Acts where that was a thing more than a jokey remark from him? That has to be the most tone deaf thing said about anyone in the entire game. Someone at Larian clearly doesn't like Astarion.
Last edited by Bethra; 02/10/23 10:29 PM.
# Justice for Astarion
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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And while we're at it - what's up with the last "kiss" before the grand finale? "This may be the last time for a kiss" "Then let's make it count" *quick peck* Can we get some passion over here? We could die horribly any second. Um, yes. This. 100%. We're about to die. You couldn't make the kiss last more than 1 single second? Romances in Act 3 drive me nuts.
#JusticeForAstarion
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member
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member
Joined: Nov 2021
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IMHO the only good ending for a spawn Astarion is to find a cure for vampirism. There is no good ending for him in a long run without the cure. Astarion is IMMORTAL and Tav is NOT, so when the time comes and she is gone then poor Astarion is left alone in the shadows with a never-ending hunger.
What kind of happy ending is that for him? Live through your lover's aging and death and to be left along in the whole world?
There is plenty of opportunities for Larian to give him that option. Either through a true resurrection/or a wish spell, Withers, Gale ascended to godhood. Apparently Jaheira was kicking around in BG 2 (I never played any previous games) and she was involved in curing the vampirism (that's what I've heard).
Give poor guy a Happy Ending, he had enough misery for almost 200 years...
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