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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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The whole big cut content is essentially worthless. Few things were confirmed but most of it is speculation without any proof. And yeah, BG3 is popular, so why Larian should put even more money into the game? Why add things into location that barely works, why invest more resources and time into already huge financial success instead of cashing out and focusing on next project? BG3 is not their last game on earth. For a company that built the trust throughout so many years and is known to listen to its community that'd be quite a shit move to abandon THE game after such a massive success. I agree with Rae, DE will boost sales and make noise, drawing new attention to the game
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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The whole big cut content is essentially worthless. Few things were confirmed but most of it is speculation without any proof. And yeah, BG3 is popular, so why Larian should put even more money into the game? Why add things into location that barely works, why invest more resources and time into already huge financial success instead of cashing out and focusing on next project? Why abandon their golden goose? This is now their flagship game, and they can continue making money out of it for a long time beyond the base game. This game took a lot of money and a very long time to make. It makes perfect sense to capitalize on that hard work by building upon it and expanding the consumer base. In times as precarious as these for the gaming industry, relying on a proven IP to ensure sustainable revenue flows is almost mandatory. BG3 is now a popular and recognizable IP. Larian can afford to develop more than one game at a time. When Mihoyo came out with Genshin, they were on the ropes. It was a big gamble that paid off tremendously. Now they're developing multiple games at the same time, while ensuring that their flagship game is well provided for. Larian was a lot more confident in BG3, but they had similarly gambled a lot on its success. That gamble paid off, too. Now, by nourishing the BG3 community, they can ensure the success of their other games. Heck, Microsoft is still making content for Age of Empires 2 to this day, and that game's ancient.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 23/09/23 02:29 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Financially it makes a lot of sense to keep focusing on bg3, it wouldn't make any sense not to. Not to mention, the extremely positive reviews and press they got would only be cemented further.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Again, would prefer a fix quest for Karlach in the base game. But coming back from Avernus and chilling with friends would be very welcome. Pretty much how I feel. A more thorough fix to the way her story is written would be ideal for me, but I think a more substantial epilogue like this info hints at might be the best we get. I'm not really familiar with how Larian works since BG3 is my first game from them, but it sort of seems like the level of rewrites/extra content specifically for Karlach that so many people around here want is rather well beyond the scope of what you'd expect pretty much any developer to do, especially post-launch. You may have heard about their rewrites for Beast (and Fane) from the Divinity series. Here's a video mentioning the changes made to Beast's story. Essentially, the main complaint they received about him was that his story felt incomplete so they gave his questline more substance and polish so that it feels complete. Much like Karlach, he became an origin character much later in development and similarly suffered for it. Make of that what you will. However, keep in mind that the complaints for Karlach's story are different than the ones for Beast's. Plus, he was nowhere near as popular as she is, so you shouldn't expect them to repeat what they did for Beast and simply pad out her existing questline. I believe they will do right by us and give us what we want, even if it might not be exactly in the way we imagined.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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All I want. Is her to not HAVE to go back to avernus at the end. I want her to be healed and her issue come to a close. Like nearly every other origin character >_>
If its jist a quick added fetch quest with the gondians...fine ill take it. But if they give us a way to add in avernus mid to late game as an exploreable area to flesh out her quest line AND solve her issue? - inject that sh#$ right into my VEINS. They could even do me dirty and make a dlc i dont care ill buy it in a heart beat!
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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I would LIVE for an Avernus location and getting to play through a proper quest for her. I would also love to save her without having to put her though Avernus at all.
However, now that the option has been brought up, I think I personally would be content with an epilogue where Karlach and whoever went with her come back to meet with their friends again - provided that they come back victorious with her healed. Let her kick the door down like SUP GUYS GUESS WHO'S RUSTY OLD HEART GOT A MAKEOVER and hug every party member or all of them at once.
I'm sure having her come back only to later return to the Hells AGAIN wouldn't make anybody happy though.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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That would make alot of ppl content probably. But i still think it be a diservice to the character and the sheer amount of content just kind of sitting there for her. Id accept it yeah but id be pretty disappilointed on larian if they chose tge easy path there. Considering the changes they added for beast and fane
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Yeah, no argument here. Guess time will tell how much effort they're willing to actually put in on this matter! One can hope that it's a considerable amount.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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Apparently there's a new bug that causes Dammon to instantly get killed by the Strange Ox in Act 2 lol.
Bro Larian fucking hates Karlach ROFL
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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LOL i saw that yeah. Aswell as issues now woth trading out companions and inventory? Im sure the hotfix will tackle that stuff but still pretty funny
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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It's hilarious to see all these things and then there's His Majesty suddenly being a floof. The absolute outrage it has created. It's nice to see a bunch of likes among "Karlach should get a chance to live in Faerun/fix engine" posts on twitter, both on Larian's patch tweet and separate.
Y'all, you know when you're really fixating on something and it pops into your head at random? Had a thought they should name a sub-questline "A change of heart" where you either help Karlach get the engine out and cleric-regenerate a heart in, or fix the engine in the infernal forge. Sigh. Really wish we had an option.
I'm slowly getting myself closer to act 3 and I can't, just can't, wrap my head around her fate.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Strange Ox doesn't seem to trigger on Ps5. At least my game was safe.
As for Karlach's natural heart...Gale's true res scroll should give her a real one.
Last edited by Angelalex242; 23/09/23 11:40 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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Yes, the game has both true res and divine intervention that don't require rolls and worry, which could work for Karlach's situation. If we got 7th level spells, or found a higher level cleric, they could cast regenerate (+true res/revivify if they had killed Karlach whilst removing the infernal engine, because yes she'd be clinically dead until a heart was placed in and reconnected). A wish spell is obviously OP and don't think Larian would go that route because if one isn't granted to the saviors of BG then I highly doubt it ever would in the boundries of this game.
It does shock me though, still, as I can't shake the fact that so many people seem to be so fine with Karlach dying because "shes basically a terminal patient and it's so beautiful that she accepted her time and made the most of it". Like omg have we played the same game? She does at first, then the longer we play and she gets revenge through Gortash, she is very much not ready to die. In her Origin ending she's not ready at all u til player choice, but even then she's heartbroken to part with the sky and sea again.
Which in turn makes the "ending she deserves" so bullshit, because she has to go back to Avernus to survive, which she ultimately wants to do (live, that is), but at what cost? Even with Tav and potentially Wyll, she'd have to fight all of Zariel's forces if that's what Zariel decided she wanted. Yes, things are different than before. She's with allies, she's not alone, she's more powerful than ever and she's ready to kick ass - but she never wanted to go back there either. It all feels so wrong. Had this been a true DnD campaign, one would listen to what the players want and make it possible, even if extremely challenging to obtain, at least it'd be an option. And that's where this story fails to deliver. It doesn't even give us a fair chance. Not even a nat 20-only check to succeed.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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I don't get the sense that people are fine with her being doomed. At the very least they think the game doesn't try hard enough to fix her.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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It does shock me though, still, as I can't shake the fact that so many people seem to be so fine with Karlach dying because "shes basically a terminal patient and it's so beautiful that she accepted her time and made the most of it". Just based on what I've seen, it seems like the Karlach story and ending is possibly the most complained-about part of this game, and by a pretty big margin.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2023
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Ppl who are defending* her dying or story plot as is, confuse the hell out of me. I wont bash any of the writers at larian (we still dont know how they got to the end product or what might have been cut short or in their control) But karlachs story isnt a good tragedy imo. Its a depressing feeling of helplessness to the player character in a game advertised for its boundless options and choices. Made worse because it feels GLARINGLY like the only thing in the story you cannot change. If ppl are fine with that ok cool. Im not asking thst they take out those options but for gods sake give us an option to save her like the rest.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Had a random bit of creative thinking so I wanted to share an idea of how they could do a save Karlach scene/quest to cap off her story, while keeping a lot of the story the same, just built upon. Starting off at the Steel Watcher Foundry, when you first encounter Zanner. Ask him if there's anything you can do for a malfunctioning infernal engine, and after a quick listen, much like the steel watcher, he'll say there's nothing you can do to fix it. But if you had enough enriched infernal iron, you could build a new one that could last indefinitely (he would seem very hopeless about this idea, given his current situation).
Continue the rest of the Gondian quest as normal, with a journal update saying when you've got enough enriched infernal iron, you should focus on helping them out for next steps. Side with them when Wulbren and the Ironhands confront him, or broker peace if you've saved Barkus. Afterwards, you or Karlach will explain the situation. He'll offer the idea of an operating, transplanting the current engine for a new one they build. Zanner exclaims that's a monumental task, with a lot that could go wrong, but one he's willing to try for all you've done for his people. The Gondians can build a new engine with their intricate knowledge, but you'll need someone who can stand the flames more than a gnome for this kind of procedure. Fortunately, you happen to know an infernal mechanic who could stand the heat better than most, Dammon. After you explain that you know Dammon who lives in the city, Zanner asks that you bring the enriched infernal iron to him at Dammons smithy. Karlach will really like this, but we need to strike while the iron is hot in regards to Gortash, and needs to see him dead before we continue. This creates the feeling of a time crunch further with the Illithid attacks in the city, and allows the Gortash aftermath dialogue to not be wasted. During her talk in camp she will still ask you to watch her die in case the Gondians don't work out.
At the smithy after a bit of back and forth dialogue of the Gondians and Dammon, gushing about machinery, they'll tell you what they need next. While they can make the replacement engine, the operation is still messy, and they'll need a blood transfusion ready to go. If you ask him about having a cleric or other healer on standby, that's simply not good. While the opening to the heart is clearly easy to access, if you heal while they're swapping connecting arteries from the old to the new, you could close them by accident, which could fatally kill her. And of course, you can't just use any blood, but you'll still need blood that can at least take some heat. Tiefling blood. Dammon already offers, but he has the same time, same as Tav should your character be a Tiefling as well. So you'll need to find a whole group of Tieflings to test and see if they're compatible.
Now just where oh where on Faerun could we possibly find a group of Tieflings willing to help?
This is also where Karlachs story can tie in to the previous acts of the game outside of Dammon. Assuming that all the Tieflings have been saved from Moonrise Towers, and Last Light did not fall, going to their camp to convince them to help is an incredibly easy task. They are more than willing to return the favour for all the help you've given them.
Lirene is our successful match here (both are Zariel bloodline tieflings, is a possible explanation rather than blood type). If she's alive but you did not save Danis from Moonrise Towers, she is distraught and needs convincing to help you. If you're romancing Karlach, perhaps this evokes an outburst "Why should YOUR love get to live while mine dies at the hands of that cult!?".
If Last Light falls, then that's it. Tragedy has followed you, either because you sought it out, or failed to help those around you. Reap what you sew. Perhaps that seems harsh, but I think it works better than prowling the streets of Baldurs Gate for a Tiefling to offer up her blood for a stranger, especially in the current situation.
Moving forward, you still need to test all of these Tieflings at the time (while taking blood samples is an idea, that's a lot of back and forth between huge loading screens, so just entertain this extra hiccup to try and smooth it over). Which means sneaking them into the city. This is where the Ironhands can come back into play. If some peace has been brokered with them, they need little convincing and can sneak them past the Wyrm Crossing gate the same way they snuck away after disabling that Steel Watcher. If they're still mad, you need to pass a persuasion check (made easier of you went to the Underdark and helped their people, and more from helping Barkus). Failing this, several thousands of gold will do the trick. With the Steel Watch gone, this proves successful.
Back at the Smithy, Dammon and Zanner explains they've got a good match with Lirene, and are ready to operate whenever Karlach is ready. They note there's a risk that something goes wrong which kills her, but this doesn't scare her one bit, not if it means being finally truly free. You're taken to a Gondian lab, where Lirene is set up and the new engine ready in an operating room far in the back. Karlach sits down on the table, Dammon opens her up and... oh no. As soon as he touches her engine, infernal runes glow all over it with one final warning.
As someone mentioned prior, Karlachs horn etchings, her tattoos, she's basically a walking talking billboard that says "PROPERTY OF ZARIEL", and her heart is no different. If anyone is caught removing her engine, it is considered direct theft from the Archduke of Avernus herself, invoking an IMMEDIATE response from her. This is your last chance to wait, come back later with a plan of combat, or to give up entirely. But you're not gonna do that if you've made it this far.
Zanner, Lirene, Dammon and Karlach are in the back room mid surgery, while the party of 3 (Karlach has to be in your party to get here, so much like bringing Astarion to Cazador, you're a member down) rush out to defend that operating room. Waves of Imps, Cambions and even an Orthon or two try to stop you as you hold out for 5-7 turns. At the start of 2 turns remaining, Zariel herself comes out to play. By the runes on the engine, you are stealing directly from her, and NO devil can let that go unpunished. Not Rapheal and certainly not the ruler of Avernus This is not the Rapheal fight where he's an absolute powerhouse with pillars of souls. She's out of her element, but still... she is a MONSTER with a health bar, and damn near unkillable by regular game standards. She will be putting your party through a blender, and you will be stomped. But you MUST hold out for 2 more turns. I don't believe the game has many hold out fights. Certainly ones against a clock, but very few where you're meant to just survive.
At the very end of the clock Karlach bursts down the door, in a heavily weakened state from the operation, her old engine in hand, which she throws directly at Zariel. She gets the chance to verbally assault her abuser of the last 10 years of her life. While any devil might try to kill the party anyway at this point, Zariels property, the engine, has been returned. By the terms in it's runes, she can no longer be summoned directly after whoever has taken it, so her and her devils leave back to the hells. Perhaps Zariel threatens Karlach should they ever cross paths again. If Zariel is too much for this idea, it can always just be the devils attacking, Zariel throwing the engine at them and telling them to send a message to Zariel.
The fight is over, the devils are gone, and Karlach gets a chance, a REAL chance to live. Thanks to the good she's helped do throughout your adventure, to Dammon, and thanks to you.
Should Karlach not be romanced by Tav, there would be a scene where Karlach and Dammon become an item, after everything they've both gone through. With the talk of epilogues and characters reuniting to talk, in this timeline Karlach could talk about how Dammon and their life together. Whether that's him working the smithy while she adventures far away and returns home, or if she decided to give the quiet life a shot and they have a child together.
If Tav has romanced Karlach, she thanks Dammon profusely and considers him one of her biggest friends, while thanking Zanner, Lirene and her party. She can't believe it's finally over. So much so that she cries a little bit before pulling people into a massive hug. A conversation back at camp with Karlach goes into the more personal bits, of fears, what could have been, and now what could be. If Tav brought up the idea of children, either during the test of love or after date night, she suggests maybe giving the quiet life a try, just to see if it's a good fit. You'll both still be ending this adventure off with a bang after all, maybe a little break from the chaos would be nice again.
EDIT - ensured that the post-Gortash dialogue is utilized
Anyhoo there it is. Thought it would be fun to share the idea and honestly a good writing exercise for me.
Last edited by rdslatez; 24/09/23 12:13 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Well, Karlach death does remind me somewhat of Aerith, back in 1997...
You don't have to like it, the game designer doesn't have to fix it either.
I do think all characters should be okay with Karlach in Poly, because they understand she's got weeks to live at best and could die at any time. Indulge her before time is up.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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You don't have to like it, the game designer doesn't have to fix it either. Tech is pretty steadily reaching the point where we as a community can fix whatever terrible design or writing decisions we damn well please.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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Mostly. You can't have new lines recorded.
Also, you can never touch the ps5 version
Last edited by Angelalex242; 24/09/23 05:17 AM.
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