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Ppl who are defending* her dying or story plot as is, confuse the hell out of me. I wont bash any of the writers at larian (we still dont know how they got to the end product or what might have been cut short or in their control)
But karlachs story isnt a good tragedy imo. Its a depressing feeling of helplessness to the player character in a game advertised for its boundless options and choices.
Made worse because it feels GLARINGLY like the only thing in the story you cannot change.
If ppl are fine with that ok cool. Im not asking thst they take out those options but for gods sake give us an option to save her like the rest.

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Had a random bit of creative thinking so I wanted to share an idea of how they could do a save Karlach scene/quest to cap off her story, while keeping a lot of the story the same, just built upon.


Starting off at the Steel Watcher Foundry, when you first encounter Zanner. Ask him if there's anything you can do for a malfunctioning infernal engine, and after a quick listen, much like the steel watcher, he'll say there's nothing you can do to fix it. But if you had enough enriched infernal iron, you could build a new one that could last indefinitely (he would seem very hopeless about this idea, given his current situation).

Continue the rest of the Gondian quest as normal, with a journal update saying when you've got enough enriched infernal iron, you should focus on helping them out for next steps. Side with them when Wulbren and the Ironhands confront him, or broker peace if you've saved Barkus. Afterwards, you or Karlach will explain the situation. He'll offer the idea of an operating, transplanting the current engine for a new one they build. Zanner exclaims that's a monumental task, with a lot that could go wrong, but one he's willing to try for all you've done for his people. The Gondians can build a new engine with their intricate knowledge, but you'll need someone who can stand the flames more than a gnome for this kind of procedure. Fortunately, you happen to know an infernal mechanic who could stand the heat better than most, Dammon. After you explain that you know Dammon who lives in the city, Zanner asks that you bring the enriched infernal iron to him at Dammons smithy. Karlach will really like this, but we need to strike while the iron is hot in regards to Gortash, and needs to see him dead before we continue. This creates the feeling of a time crunch further with the Illithid attacks in the city, and allows the Gortash aftermath dialogue to not be wasted. During her talk in camp she will still ask you to watch her die in case the Gondians don't work out.

At the smithy after a bit of back and forth dialogue of the Gondians and Dammon, gushing about machinery, they'll tell you what they need next. While they can make the replacement engine, the operation is still messy, and they'll need a blood transfusion ready to go. If you ask him about having a cleric or other healer on standby, that's simply not good. While the opening to the heart is clearly easy to access, if you heal while they're swapping connecting arteries from the old to the new, you could close them by accident, which could fatally kill her. And of course, you can't just use any blood, but you'll still need blood that can at least take some heat. Tiefling blood. Dammon already offers, but he has the same time, same as Tav should your character be a Tiefling as well. So you'll need to find a whole group of Tieflings to test and see if they're compatible.

Now just where oh where on Faerun could we possibly find a group of Tieflings willing to help?

This is also where Karlachs story can tie in to the previous acts of the game outside of Dammon. Assuming that all the Tieflings have been saved from Moonrise Towers, and Last Light did not fall, going to their camp to convince them to help is an incredibly easy task. They are more than willing to return the favour for all the help you've given them.

Lirene is our successful match here (both are Zariel bloodline tieflings, is a possible explanation rather than blood type). If she's alive but you did not save Danis from Moonrise Towers, she is distraught and needs convincing to help you. If you're romancing Karlach, perhaps this evokes an outburst "Why should YOUR love get to live while mine dies at the hands of that cult!?".

If Last Light falls, then that's it. Tragedy has followed you, either because you sought it out, or failed to help those around you. Reap what you sew. Perhaps that seems harsh, but I think it works better than prowling the streets of Baldurs Gate for a Tiefling to offer up her blood for a stranger, especially in the current situation.

Moving forward, you still need to test all of these Tieflings at the time (while taking blood samples is an idea, that's a lot of back and forth between huge loading screens, so just entertain this extra hiccup to try and smooth it over). Which means sneaking them into the city. This is where the Ironhands can come back into play. If some peace has been brokered with them, they need little convincing and can sneak them past the Wyrm Crossing gate the same way they snuck away after disabling that Steel Watcher. If they're still mad, you need to pass a persuasion check (made easier of you went to the Underdark and helped their people, and more from helping Barkus). Failing this, several thousands of gold will do the trick. With the Steel Watch gone, this proves successful.

Back at the Smithy, Dammon and Zanner explains they've got a good match with Lirene, and are ready to operate whenever Karlach is ready. They note there's a risk that something goes wrong which kills her, but this doesn't scare her one bit, not if it means being finally truly free. You're taken to a Gondian lab, where Lirene is set up and the new engine ready in an operating room far in the back. Karlach sits down on the table, Dammon opens her up and... oh no. As soon as he touches her engine, infernal runes glow all over it with one final warning.

As someone mentioned prior, Karlachs horn etchings, her tattoos, she's basically a walking talking billboard that says "PROPERTY OF ZARIEL", and her heart is no different. If anyone is caught removing her engine, it is considered direct theft from the Archduke of Avernus herself, invoking an IMMEDIATE response from her. This is your last chance to wait, come back later with a plan of combat, or to give up entirely. But you're not gonna do that if you've made it this far.

Zanner, Lirene, Dammon and Karlach are in the back room mid surgery, while the party of 3 (Karlach has to be in your party to get here, so much like bringing Astarion to Cazador, you're a member down) rush out to defend that operating room. Waves of Imps, Cambions and even an Orthon or two try to stop you as you hold out for 5-7 turns. At the start of 2 turns remaining, Zariel herself comes out to play. By the runes on the engine, you are stealing directly from her, and NO devil can let that go unpunished. Not Rapheal and certainly not the ruler of Avernus This is not the Rapheal fight where he's an absolute powerhouse with pillars of souls. She's out of her element, but still... she is a MONSTER with a health bar, and damn near unkillable by regular game standards. She will be putting your party through a blender, and you will be stomped. But you MUST hold out for 2 more turns. I don't believe the game has many hold out fights. Certainly ones against a clock, but very few where you're meant to just survive.

At the very end of the clock Karlach bursts down the door, in a heavily weakened state from the operation, her old engine in hand, which she throws directly at Zariel. She gets the chance to verbally assault her abuser of the last 10 years of her life. While any devil might try to kill the party anyway at this point, Zariels property, the engine, has been returned. By the terms in it's runes, she can no longer be summoned directly after whoever has taken it, so her and her devils leave back to the hells. Perhaps Zariel threatens Karlach should they ever cross paths again. If Zariel is too much for this idea, it can always just be the devils attacking, Zariel throwing the engine at them and telling them to send a message to Zariel.

The fight is over, the devils are gone, and Karlach gets a chance, a REAL chance to live. Thanks to the good she's helped do throughout your adventure, to Dammon, and thanks to you.

Should Karlach not be romanced by Tav, there would be a scene where Karlach and Dammon become an item, after everything they've both gone through. With the talk of epilogues and characters reuniting to talk, in this timeline Karlach could talk about how Dammon and their life together. Whether that's him working the smithy while she adventures far away and returns home, or if she decided to give the quiet life a shot and they have a child together.

If Tav has romanced Karlach, she thanks Dammon profusely and considers him one of her biggest friends, while thanking Zanner, Lirene and her party. She can't believe it's finally over. So much so that she cries a little bit before pulling people into a massive hug. A conversation back at camp with Karlach goes into the more personal bits, of fears, what could have been, and now what could be. If Tav brought up the idea of children, either during the test of love or after date night, she suggests maybe giving the quiet life a try, just to see if it's a good fit. You'll both still be ending this adventure off with a bang after all, maybe a little break from the chaos would be nice again.

EDIT - ensured that the post-Gortash dialogue is utilized

Anyhoo there it is. Thought it would be fun to share the idea and honestly a good writing exercise for me.

Last edited by rdslatez; 24/09/23 12:13 PM.
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Well, Karlach death does remind me somewhat of Aerith, back in 1997...

You don't have to like it, the game designer doesn't have to fix it either.

I do think all characters should be okay with Karlach in Poly, because they understand she's got weeks to live at best and could die at any time. Indulge her before time is up.

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Originally Posted by Angelalex242
You don't have to like it, the game designer doesn't have to fix it either.

Tech is pretty steadily reaching the point where we as a community can fix whatever terrible design or writing decisions we damn well please.

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Mostly. You can't have new lines recorded.

Also, you can never touch the ps5 version

Last edited by Angelalex242; 24/09/23 05:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by Angelalex242
Well, Karlach death does remind me somewhat of Aerith, back in 1997...

You don't have to like it, the game designer doesn't have to fix it either.

I do think all characters should be okay with Karlach in Poly, because they understand she's got weeks to live at best and could die at any time. Indulge her before time is up.

Except FFVII isn't a crpg by any means and a very different game in the way it handles decisions, Aerith didn't get impaled by Sepiroth while the others got to walk away free just 'cause, she died to propel the story forward in the way that it was written. it's a gut punch nonetheless, but it's still implemented in the story in a very different way when we compare it to Karlach. Karlach has no fix while there are multiple hints scattered throughout the game, and she exists in a context where multiple companions are a on a very shitty path, only to be saved or nudged towards a kinder fate by the player. No companion suffers the same grim possible fates without a possible kinder and brighter one, she's the odd one out. Karlach's death/ceremorphosis/return to avernus
(mostly her death) serve no purpose narratively, when we analyze in the context of this specific game. FFVII has a very linear story and the fate of companions aren't nearly as mutable as bg3. I do see your point, mind you... and her death MIGHT have worked had it been implemented diffrently, but i personally don't think this is the case.

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Originally Posted by Angelalex242
Mostly. You can't have new lines recorded.

AI has already been used to fully voice Morrowind, and the tech only seems to be getting better.

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Originally Posted by Angelalex242
Well, Karlach death does remind me somewhat of Aerith, back in 1997...

You don't have to like it, the game designer doesn't have to fix it either.

I do think all characters should be okay with Karlach in Poly, because they understand she's got weeks to live at best and could die at any time. Indulge her before time is up.

Man really said "Forget the plot holes, where's my orgy" LOL

I respect it. In a dumb kind of way.

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Originally Posted by Sunriders Destin
Originally Posted by Angelalex242
Well, Karlach death does remind me somewhat of Aerith, back in 1997...

You don't have to like it, the game designer doesn't have to fix it either.

I do think all characters should be okay with Karlach in Poly, because they understand she's got weeks to live at best and could die at any time. Indulge her before time is up.

Man really said "Forget the plot holes, where's my orgy" LOL

I respect it. In a dumb kind of way.
Well, Sharess would approve...you could get a Sharess blessing for having one!

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Originally Posted by Sunriders Destin
Apparently there's a new bug that causes Dammon to instantly get killed by the Strange Ox in Act 2 lol.

Bro Larian fucking hates Karlach ROFL

I don't think so. Karlach once again got the most attention in this Patch, she has well over 50 mentions, more than any other character.

Last edited by Walking Kole; 24/09/23 06:35 AM.
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I was parsing through some of the localization files and found an interesting bit. Not sure if it's new. Don't think so.

"The High House of Wonders! Temple to Gond, the Gearsmith and the Wonderbringer, the House is at the same time an elaborate collection of workshops, laboratories, and magicomanufactories - for what better way to worship the Lord of All Smiths than by making mechanisms in his name? Here in the Upper City, all manner of enchanted clockwork devices are forged and crafted, powered by spells, by steam, by conjured micromodrons - even, some say, by hellfire! However, these Gondian creations are not wonders for the sake of wonder, but practical contrivances built to enhance the lives of Faerűn's mortals and help them work beyond the limits of their physical bodies. Take, for example, the mighty cranes that line Baldur's Gates' docks, loading and unloading ship cargo with speed and strength far beyond the capacity of ordinary stevedores. These cranes originated in the workshops of the High House of Wonders, and are Gond's gift to the trade and prosperity of the city"

It mention "Here in the Upper City" and the High House of Wonders. This might be where Karlach was SUPPOSED to be fixed originally.

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Originally Posted by Walking Kole
I don't think so. Karlach once again got the most attention in this Patch, she has well over 50 mentions, more than any other character.

While I'm mostly hopeful that she'll get something better than the simple epilogue we got, that patch had a few polish updates to said epilogue. If they agreed with their players and decided to change the ending, why waste time polishing it? Unless they want to leave it in as a bad ending, I guess?

Originally Posted by Sunriders Destin
It mention "Here in the Upper City" and the High House of Wonders. This might be where Karlach was SUPPOSED to be fixed originally.

That bit mentions Gond and enchanted clockwork devices powered by hellfire. With the references that did make it into the final game, there's no way it's unrelated...

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Just as a note, I really enjoyed your idea and even tho maybe Zariel would be overkill as a boss, I think her goons would be powerful enough. Love the idea of Karlach kicking the doors open and *making amends* with whoever remains. And her axe/sword.

Spirits thoroughly lifted from reading this. One would hope Larian grabs some inspo from posts like yours.

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I don't hate the idea but it should be after the Gortash fight somehow.

The dialog is too good to waste

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Wow, nice catch, very good indicator how close we were to the good ending in the past.

Yeah, Gortash death scene is maybe the strongest moment in the game.

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I mean to be fair, it's still a fine ending, we just don't want it to be the ONLY ending. They can absolutely keep the "gang goes to Avernus" ending without compromising the ability to one day fix her engine.

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High house of wonders eh? Gives me some more hope for a more fleshed out add in for karlach ( though im alrdy drowning in hopium as is) dont let us down larian!



Justice for Karlach!

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Originally Posted by soyt
Originally Posted by Walking Kole
I don't think so. Karlach once again got the most attention in this Patch, she has well over 50 mentions, more than any other character.

While I'm mostly hopeful that she'll get something better than the simple epilogue we got, that patch had a few polish updates to said epilogue. If they agreed with their players and decided to change the ending, why waste time polishing it? Unless they want to leave it in as a bad ending, I guess?

The reason they "polished" the Avernus ending was because it was quite literally unfinished before that. It just cut to black, if I remember correctly. This means they didn't have time to finish it up before release. I'm beginning to think a lot of the "new" features we've been getting in these patches are features they couldn't finish up in time. The ability to change your appearance is quite a basic feature that ideally should've launched with the base game. If I'm correct, and if the rumors of a once-existing Upper City are correct as well, then we can reasonably expect to see it in a definitive edition. And with it, mayhaps a good resolution to Karlach's predicament.

Last edited by Walking Kole; 25/09/23 08:53 AM.
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There has been absolutely no indication from Larian that they're willing to make changes to Karlach's railroaded storyline. They seem to be very happy what they currently have. And it's within their right.

I would love to have a happy ending for her in addition to the ones currently in the game. But just don't get your hopes up.

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You know, I had worked in an, uh, storytelling medium before (not videogames, but still), and if the cut-content-theory is correct and Karlach's story wasn't supposed to be just this but got partially cut, then it kinda probably sucks being an original writer, knowing what should've been, perhaps having actually written it, knowing that it got cut for technical reasons and therefore generally agreeing with people's discontent, getting blamed for how it all turned out because it seems that you're at fault here, and not being able to say anything because of an NDA.

Now, I don't fully believe that that's the actual case here, but in a version of events where technicalities are to blame and not the actual story, I feel for that hypothetical writer. I've seen enough creators helplessly howling at negative comments about something their name is plastered on when in reality it's some internal process that screwed them over, but we just couldn't air out dirty laundry to fans like that.

To be clear, I'm not trying to shame anyone here (as I said, I don't know if I believe that's how it went), just speculating. Got a brief moment of deja vu, if you will.

EDIT: for clarity, the main thought here is "If this whole thing with Karlach's quest being botched is really just a matter of content having to be cut then that really sucks for everyone involved really"

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