Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Except FFVII isn't a crpg by any means and a very different game in the way it handles decisions, Aerith didn't get impaled by Sepiroth while the others got to walk away free just 'cause, she died to propel the story forward in the way that it was written. it's a gut punch nonetheless, but it's still implemented in the story in a very different way when we compare it to Karlach. Karlach has no fix while there are multiple hints scattered throughout the game, and she exists in a context where multiple companions are a on a very shitty path, only to be saved or nudged towards a kinder fate by the player. No companion suffers the same grim possible fates without a possible kinder and brighter one, she's the odd one out. Karlach's death/ceremorphosis/return to avernus
(mostly her death) serve no purpose narratively, when we analyze in the context of this specific game. FFVII has a very linear story and the fate of companions aren't nearly as mutable as bg3. I do see your point, mind you... and her death MIGHT have worked had it been implemented diffrently, but i personally don't think this is the case.

AI has already been used to fully voice Morrowind, and the tech only seems to be getting better.

Man really said "Forget the plot holes, where's my orgy" LOL

I respect it. In a dumb kind of way.

Well, Sharess would approve...you could get a Sharess blessing for having one!

I don't think so. Karlach once again got the most attention in this Patch, she has well over 50 mentions, more than any other character.

I was parsing through some of the localization files and found an interesting bit. Not sure if it's new. Don't think so.

"The High House of Wonders! Temple to Gond, the Gearsmith and the Wonderbringer, the House is at the same time an elaborate collection of workshops, laboratories, and magicomanufactories - for what better way to worship the Lord of All Smiths than by making mechanisms in his name? Here in the Upper City, all manner of enchanted clockwork devices are forged and crafted, powered by spells, by steam, by conjured micromodrons - even, some say, by hellfire! However, these Gondian creations are not wonders for the sake of wonder, but practical contrivances built to enhance the lives of Faerûn's mortals and help them work beyond the limits of their physical bodies. Take, for example, the mighty cranes that line Baldur's Gates' docks, loading and unloading ship cargo with speed and strength far beyond the capacity of ordinary stevedores. These cranes originated in the workshops of the High House of Wonders, and are Gond's gift to the trade and prosperity of the city"

It mention "Here in the Upper City" and the High House of Wonders. This might be where Karlach was SUPPOSED to be fixed originally.

While I'm mostly hopeful that she'll get something better than the simple epilogue we got, that patch had a few polish updates to said epilogue. If they agreed with their players and decided to change the ending, why waste time polishing it? Unless they want to leave it in as a bad ending, I guess?


That bit mentions Gond and enchanted clockwork devices powered by hellfire. With the references that did make it into the final game, there's no way it's unrelated...

Just as a note, I really enjoyed your idea and even tho maybe Zariel would be overkill as a boss, I think her goons would be powerful enough. Love the idea of Karlach kicking the doors open and *making amends* with whoever remains. And her axe/sword.

Spirits thoroughly lifted from reading this. One would hope Larian grabs some inspo from posts like yours.

I don't hate the idea but it should be after the Gortash fight somehow.

The dialog is too good to waste

Wow, nice catch, very good indicator how close we were to the good ending in the past.

Yeah, Gortash death scene is maybe the strongest moment in the game.

I mean to be fair, it's still a fine ending, we just don't want it to be the ONLY ending. They can absolutely keep the "gang goes to Avernus" ending without compromising the ability to one day fix her engine.

High house of wonders eh? Gives me some more hope for a more fleshed out add in for karlach ( though im alrdy drowning in hopium as is) dont let us down larian!



Justice for Karlach!

The reason they "polished" the Avernus ending was because it was quite literally unfinished before that. It just cut to black, if I remember correctly. This means they didn't have time to finish it up before release. I'm beginning to think a lot of the "new" features we've been getting in these patches are features they couldn't finish up in time. The ability to change your appearance is quite a basic feature that ideally should've launched with the base game. If I'm correct, and if the rumors of a once-existing Upper City are correct as well, then we can reasonably expect to see it in a definitive edition. And with it, mayhaps a good resolution to Karlach's predicament.

There has been absolutely no indication from Larian that they're willing to make changes to Karlach's railroaded storyline. They seem to be very happy what they currently have. And it's within their right.

I would love to have a happy ending for her in addition to the ones currently in the game. But just don't get your hopes up.

You know, I had worked in an, uh, storytelling medium before (not videogames, but still), and if the cut-content-theory is correct and Karlach's story wasn't supposed to be just this but got partially cut, then it kinda probably sucks being an original writer, knowing what should've been, perhaps having actually written it, knowing that it got cut for technical reasons and therefore generally agreeing with people's discontent, getting blamed for how it all turned out because it seems that you're at fault here, and not being able to say anything because of an NDA.

Now, I don't fully believe that that's the actual case here, but in a version of events where technicalities are to blame and not the actual story, I feel for that hypothetical writer. I've seen enough creators helplessly howling at negative comments about something their name is plastered on when in reality it's some internal process that screwed them over, but we just couldn't air out dirty laundry to fans like that.

To be clear, I'm not trying to shame anyone here (as I said, I don't know if I believe that's how it went), just speculating. Got a brief moment of deja vu, if you will.

EDIT: for clarity, the main thought here is "If this whole thing with Karlach's quest being botched is really just a matter of content having to be cut then that really sucks for everyone involved really"

I know Larian has written quite an extensive post with the previous patch re: cut content and choices, where they say that what was cut was cut because their creative vision wanted it to go.

But there's also a ton of stuff about them listening to player feedback and how crucial it is for them so sometimes even the best options of a developer aren't really selling well with the community. Karlach's story and the lacking of choice for the player to do more about it than fetch two pieces of simple infernal iron is just like that.

Now. I do believe that the easiest way to please the community on rapid-fire solution schedule is to extend the "best" possible outcome to date, which is the Avernus ending. The next-best solution that requires the least editing in the game is to leave it as is and in a potential x months down the line-kind of epilogue, have Tav, Karlach and/or Wyll return as well, talking about what went down in Avernus and IN THERE tell that they found a way to rid her of the problem and she's able to survive in Faerûn and live a happy life again.

The best option however, is to gather all the stuff we've mentioned here and on Discord and see which way of solving her engine issue is the most rewarding for the player, but equally hard to pursue.

In ME3, those who remember the ending drama there, obviously an extended cut was released to develop the epilogues more. Then, and only if you collected more than 95% of all assets kn the game and surpassed a set amount of those, could you get what would pass as the "best/most hopeful" Shepard ending with the destroy ending and rubble breath scene.

The fix ending isn't supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a trial and hard to obtain. There's battle to be won and checks to pass for it to happen, but in a proper DnD campaign, that is exactly what the players would get. I've been in multiple campaigns where near-impossible feats were achieved because we as players fought tooth and nail to get there, and the dice were thanfully in our favor. I also know of times where that kind of stuff had really bad ramifications and it too should in-game.

But people need to remember that BG3 is based off of DnD and how it operates, how much it's about choice and companionship and fighting for the next day. I doubt Larian would just pass a request as wanted as this one by, but it's not a simple task and I don't think it'll happen for a while.

Once again, time will tell. Until then, I'll hold my flaming wife company in Hell and make sure to fight to see the sky and sea again. Because what else can we do?

They are probably happy only with the fact, that you can complete Karlach storyline from beginning to the end without blocking bugs. With removed content the whole infernal engine story remains one big empty nonsence with bring 2x infernal ore and then let her die, nobody cares. If Swen or somebody from the core team played the game from the start to the end with Karlach in party and observed the empty journal at the end (compared to other origin characters), don't tell me, he said. "Wow, we did awesome job, the quest is just great and the ending is exactly as I expected"

So I don't give up, DE has to come I do hope, (un)fortunately not earlier, that a year from now.

You'd think Karlach would get some special bonus for having flawed Helldusk armor. But as a Barbarian she can't use the chest piece.

The more I think about it, there is NO SHOT the writers are satisfied with her story at the moment.

For instance; you could, hypothetically, enter Act 3, head directly to Gortash, kill him within the first 15 minutes of the final act, get Karlachs monologue and the quest log will say "We tried everything we could" BEFORE YOU EVEN ENTER THE CITY.

Larian would have to be full, top to bottom, of the most incompetent game developers possible for them to think that is ok.

hh,I never thought it that way, but is sounds completely true. Because you complete the quest by killing Gortash, not by doing anything with the heart. I think this is another proof of missing content than incopetence of the writers.