Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion Petition: Let us have Minthara without mass genocide

How can you be good and get her? You can't AFAIK.

Can I just point out you commit genocide on the good side too? Just because you like goblins less than demons, doesn't mean you didn't slaughter them all.

Not really, it makes her circumstance more complex which in the specific narrative BG3 has makes it all the more weird that you don't get to interact with a potential companion in the same circumstance as you more until you've chosen something that no one ever has a reason to choose beyond "druid mean druid die" or "drow hot". If you could avoid seeing that fight in front of the grove and found the goblins first instead THAT could make it a lot more interesting because then you aren't started off with the strong first impression that goblins are the aggressors in the conflict. As-is helping her find the grove isn't an interesting or complex choice, it's just (bafflingly) a requirement to romance her with all kinds of messed up connotations surrounding the circumstance of the romance initiation that the writers tried to ignore entirely. And to top it off it just locks you out of a truly MASSIVE amount of game content without giving anything to fill the gap other than her own dialogue which prior to Hotfix 5 was a bad joke and even now isn't ideal because her romance is still a mess and Karlach still takes huge collateral damage even if you recruit Minthara the neutral way.

Because it doesn't water anything down. It adds more options for roleplay so that you don't have to be taken (at least not as far) out of how you want your Tav to be. Minthara's recruitment allows the least roleplay of anyone, including for thoughtfully evil Tavs. Halsin himself is totally fine with you leaving the grove a lifeless hole in the ground as long as you did it yourself despite his clear dedication to the place so why are Minthara's recruitment requirements so strictly centered around the tieflings being killed no matter what if our presence disrupts the mind control and she herself calls you out for for it later if you led her to the grove? It's thematically self-contradictory, and only becomes less fitting the more you get to know her exactly because she's so richly written once she's in the party.

And I know I always start off talking about the circumstantial writing around her recruitment having a lot of gaps that need filling but I'm in the same boat. I think the writing in its current state is at least fine enough to not need to be changed (even if the goblin party scene with her is wildly messed up with any amount of hindsight). What needs to be changed is how the game counts her as dead if you knock her out. She doesn't need to be compatible with fully recruiting Halsin, the game just needs to carry her forward to the Moonrise scene if you knock her out and saving her after that will be what commits you to her recruitment and Halsin leaving. It's by far the least work and accommodates the baseline of what everyone wants. That way she gets essentially no content changes, and the people that want to recruit her on the Good path have a chance to.

I think this is just an agree to disagree moment. My Tav's story revolves around Minthara's current route and I felt like I had more fun developing a character that fits within specific cultural constraints (in this case drow culture) rather than just a free spirited broadly good aligned person. I can't really see most of the complaints about the current path to Minthara as anything other than people just upset that it doesn't align with their own personal tastes/values. Me personally? I don't like seeing the Tiefling die. You'd probably have to be a real weirdo or monster to genuinely enjoy killing such a passive group of people who are already struggling. But I am not my Tav, she's just an OC I made to explore character development and culture within the general dnd lore that I find interesting. If Minthara didn't exist I'd still base my Tav around drow cultural norms.

I also have no clue where you're getting the idea that it's supposedly ooc for her to have killed the people in the grove when she literally says in Act 2 It's part of her development.

Anyway I don't think I'm going to get much more out of this discussion because the constant talk of knocking her out as somehow being a more acceptable path than.. what Larian has currently written is super uncomfortable and weird imo.

People see this as a two way outcome. Doesn't need to be.

I went online to see if there was a way to get her to live...to maybe eventually see her later, such I've read in this thread, in that prison...knowing it was a potential character that could join my party and knowing i was going to save the grove...Answer is no.

Although, knowing the fact that I've just killed everyone in her castle and she is the only one left... attacking the grove without an army doesn't seem logical...she could flee and i guess could be a reason for her imprisonment... 3rd outcome... and we could eventually meet her in that prison tower.

I haven't gotten into act 2 yet but from the glimpse I've read which is minimal as i prefer to play without tips tricks and spoilers, it feels that it could be a simple solution and plausible outcome with minimal work.

Anyhow, i guess I'll move on and from her being knocked out, I'll kill her and put her in my adventurer's chest.

How is the knockout discussion uncomfortable in any way? It’s a mechanic for recruiting another character and for saving several npcs in mind control situations. Attacking the grove is out of character for her and that’s what she is telling the player in that line; Minthara tends to not pick needless evil options and is more utilitarian

It's really important to remember people are saying knock her out as an alternative to killing her outright. As Alarac said people constantly bring up knocked out status as a viable method of enabling her recruitment at Moonrise because the game already uses that in other situations and it is BY FAR the easiest way to change her recruitment availability as it requires no extra writing and no change to events as they already occur. It's just an under the hood change to the programming because for some reason the game counts her as dead if you non-lethally defeat her; the only reason it's like that is to prevent her recruitment when you complete the "Defeat the Goblin Leaders" quest. It's being talked about as a videogame mechanic that is currently programmed to leave her dead even when she's not, and the suggestion is that if she's not dead the game shouldn't count her as dead so that you can complete that quest and still rescue her in Moonrise. There's nothing to be uncomfortable about there. It's a lot more uncomfortable that Larian has decided she's not allowed to exist even if you explicitly don't kill her when you save the tieflings.

spoiler because even though it's a direct response continuing what's in the spoiler any further would probably need to happen in Minthara's fan or story threads (and I'm being genuine about that, continue the line of thought in one of those threads and I'll continue it with you there, but not here)

Like everyone wants her to have more content to explore so it'd be really cool if she got a little more of a personal narrative arc using some of those hints about True Souls being ignorant of tadpoles you come across in the goblin camp to talk her down the way you could with Nere of all people (at least in Early Access not sure if that made it to the final game) who is more evil as a person than Minthara ever is. There's all kinds of cool stuff about her that it'd be fun to have more content added for, like her family! That could be the focus of an entire expansion in Menzoberranzan because there's just so much meat to dig into there. But those are COLOSSALLY bigger asks and super unlikely to ever happen because of the much bigger work load they would entail (and Karlach's personal quest in Act 3 needs that work more, honestly). So the best suggestion is the simplest one, i.e. have the game carry her forward to Moonrise when she hasn't been killed. Nothing else needs to change (other than continuing to fix her bugs).

I hoped that you could reason with goblins, especially when I . But the game doesn't allow you to reason with them. In The Elder Scrolls online I felt pity for goblins 'coz they were intelligent creatures, not animals. And you could reason with them sometimes. But in BG3 their culture is very destructive and there's really no other choice but to kill them. You can't capture and reeducate them. You can't overpower all their minds from the Absolute. Even if you knock them all down - there's no point. When you defend someone weak - your actions are justified to a point. And goblins are basically berserks that don't surrender. So I blame Larian for inevitable mass goblin murders. My hands are clean:)

You can make the same argument for the druids ... they aren't exactly blameless kicking helpless teathlings out

You don't actually have to commit anything, the entire scenario can ran it course without you being there

As for the hornheads, well the shadow lands are waiting for any that make it out of the grove... is it really so evil of you to spare them that fate?

1. . The tieflings are innocent, so it's not the same argument.
2. If it runs it's course you are basically Pontius Pilate. You can't wash your hands from the blood by standing by, you know.
3. No idea what happens there. Still waiting in act 1 (99% complete everything there, thanks to Bugfield and Cyberpunk I can wait another month or two before going to act 2) to legally obtain Minthara if Larian will hear our desperate cries. Since I have no idea and if the tieflings die anyway... Well, it's still Larians' fault if they die regardless of player's efforts.

So you have not actually done the quest as Larian made it but you still want them to change things?

1 the girl be a drow her life be about culling the weak

2 yes when you meet her in act 1 she comes across as bat shit nutts

3 yes in her heart she is (mostly) evil... if you played bg1&2 then this gives you Victoria vibes

Now all I'm saying is there is more to the girl and it's worth doing her story because it's not that black and white... don't want an evil bitch in your party = fine that's your choice and I support it but don't ask for content to be removed without at least trying it

Your post makes me confused. I never asked for the content to be removed, only added a little. And it's not that hard since modders already did it to some degree.

If Minthara is the only reason to do an evil playthrough, then maybe the evil playthrough itself is flawed, and therefore it would be a shame to lock her behind this one crazy decision which is tied to the evil path which many don't want to go but would like to have Minthara.
Just let people have their apples who don't like applepie.

It's funny how the community praises mods and that everyone can play how they want (which is right) but boy do you affect their evil playthrough if they know you recruited Minthara on good terms in your own single player campaign. So better keep her away from the majority of players so few can have their pure evil experience or a funny one-time-alternative playthrough.

Interesting, i killed all ghoblins and bosses in the goblin camp, execp Minthara and Saza.
I saved Karga, saved mercenaries, saved Helsin, and told him, that Minthara have a plan to attack grove.
But, i run away, without attaking the grove.
And in the Shadow curce, i heard, than Minthara kills everyone in grove.. How??? She was alone with one ghoblin.. yes, she is 5 level, but Karga is the same level 5, and the Helsin..
It be more right, if she lose and run away.. and was panished via Ketrik... and I will found the Helsin with tifflings in Last light.

The game cannot predict ALL outcomes. It doesn't count every goblin. Only a soulless check in a code if you killed (or knocked down which is =kill for a game code check) all 3 goblin bosses.

So far a knock down is the most solid option for the devs to change code check a little. And it makes some challenge for a player.

The worst thing is that if you don't read stuff on internet - you have NO IDEA that Minthara is recruitable. It's a HUGE game design flaw. I'd make a game narrator say something like "you have a feeling that this person will have an impact in your life, maybe knocking her out instead of killing is a better option" like they have a tutorial for a knock down mechanic in the Hag's basement.

Yes, the game is so good, and from time to time i forget, that it not so flexible.
p.s.
I tried to knock down the Minthara, and when i came to the Ketric, the game think that i killed her.

Patch 3, huge patchnotes, a lot of work done, but STILL no recruitment for Minthara without dead tieflings on my conscience. So sad.

Omg Minthara is evil even if she will be less evil in the end, it shoudnt change anything.
Maybe its time to understand that there is no chance for recruit evil character to group of shinning warriors of justice just because you think it's more reasonable

You can be a group of shining heroes in every other part of the game and get her, and she is primarily focused on vengeance above all else, meaning the alignment issue is a non issue based on her goals and ability to think logically. Not to mention you have at least two other companions that would be considered some color of evil in good playthroughs. Locking Minthara makes zero sense

She wants rule the world, she told Astarion to do ritual and many other situation she act like evil character. Vengeance is her main goal but it doesnt mean she is good or even neutral.

So you should be happy that 2 others companions dont leave you after help thieflings. Becouse imo Laezel and Astarion should leave group too, like Wyll and Karlah if you help goblins. Playing as good character has only one consequence, you cant recruit Minthara. If you allow recruit Minthar like you want there will be no consequence for good character and it makes 0 sense too