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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Multiple paths of various difficulty and circumstance for a successful outcome is just good design. There only being one simple but vital solution for the heart is kind of lazy when you have other smiths and tinkerers in the game. Heck she could even make a deal with Raphael.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Multiple paths of various difficulty and circumstance for a successful outcome is just good design. There only being one simple but vital solution for the heart is kind of lazy when you have other smiths and tinkerers in the game. Heck she could even make a deal with Raphael. Exactly! In a world of infinite possibility, a bottleneck is an odd choice. And a buggy, random, easily missed bottleneck is baffling.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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When you are already playing your second game it is very rare for Isobel to be kidnapped. If you don't like what might happen just play the easiest mode. I don't see the problem.
Sorry but, It is a game that has some challenges, not a walking or romance simulator.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2021
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Hey Larianettes!
Dammon explicitly tells you to look for him in the city, so many of us didn't even realize he was in the barn at Last Light until wayyyy too late. Exploration early in Act 2 is also discouraged by the shadow curse, powerful enemies, ambushes, etc. It's also so difficult to prevent Isobel from being knocked out that I had no idea it was possible to prevent it. (I save scummed twice and she kept getting ganked before my characters could even act, so I just assumed her kidnapping was a necessary plot point.) Why does the shadow curse discourage exploration? The Isobel fight is pure fucking bullshit and I am sorry you had to experience that. I have made some comments on that already as it requires meta-knowledge to prevent Isobel from being kidnapped. You basically have to take the boxes out on the Balcony and use them to barricade the doors to her room so you only really have Marcus to deal with. You can cast Sanctuary on her but she will often quite stupidly break it because her AI is terrible and stupid. You can't use AOE spells, you can't cast feign Death on her, she will break invisibility, she is wearing pajamas with no AC bonus and she will encourage every Opportunity attack possible by running back and forth...etc etc...her actual actions never contribute materially to her own defense - honestly I am convinced Selune only recruits imbeciles. At least Shar's worshippers know how to handle themselves in combat even if she is an awful, spiteful monster. I hate Isobel, seriously, she is useless, but she is also the only thing holding back the shadow curse - so you have to overcome her stupidity to save her - THAT is the real boss fight. You against Isobels stupidity. You will probably lose, good luck. And the WORST part is this fight is so FUCKING critical to EVERYTHING. It's a goddamn dumpster fire of an encounter that has SERIOUSLY bad consequences if you fail. You lose Dammon, you lose the Harpers, you lose the vendors, you lose the kids, you lose Art, you lose Halsin, you lose the chance to break the shadow curse, you may lose Jaheira, you lose Mattis, you lose Barcus, you lose half the Tieflings. Look, Larian may not get to re-evaluating this dumb encounter for a bit so really your only option is to go back and 1) win using meta knowledge, or 2) just don't ever talk to Isobel. You don't need her and you don't need to talk to her. There are other - better - ways of handling the Shadow Curse. You know, I am going to say that this is the worst encounter in the entire game from a design perspective. it's SHAMEFULLY bad. When I went through it I literally felt a pit in my stomach at the thought of other people having to deal with this bullshit because it ruins so many types of playthroughs. In Multiplayer I have had this encounter ruin games. For streamers and people who want to roleplay or not save-scum there is a 95% chance that this encounter ends badly unless you abuse meta-knowledge. If a DM dropped this encounter on a TT group we would replace the DM.
Last edited by Blackheifer; 29/09/23 06:18 AM.
Blackheifer
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Why does the shadow curse discourage exploration? I say that mostly because there's a steep jump in difficulty, tough new enemies with devastating new abilities, unpredictable environmental conditions, a sense of looming dread and stark scary contrast to Act I. I was definitely on edge and have seen the sentiment echoed a few times. And it turns out that wariness is warranted. Not for the shadow curse, but for the poorly designed Isobel event. And the WORST part is this fight is so FUCKING critical to EVERYTHING. The messed up thing is I didn't fully realize what had happened until I was far beyond it. The only reason was the tension with Karlach was just too much to bear so I went googling (something I was trying to avoid to prevent spoilers and really enjoy the world.) Imagine this D&D campaign: About 6 sessions in, your DM presents a random encounter. Your party has terrible dice rolls and ends up with low initiative. As a result they don't get to act before a random new NPC who was introduced 3 minutes ago gets ganked. It's a super difficult fight and your party barely made it out alive. Now it's session 12. Work has been brutal, inflation's out of control, your friend group is struggling to find time to get together, but they've committed for 12 weeks and your campaign is miraculously still going strong. You've had dozens of encounters. Lots of close calls and great loot found. Your characters have bonded and grown immensely. Your party is finally feeling like they're gaining the upper hand after a lot of brutal sessions. As you're all on your way out the door, your DM says: "Oh hey, remember that encounter at that inn 6 sessions ago? I didn't mention it at the time, but there was a character crucial to your campaign in a stable near that inn. You had no reason to suspect he would be there because he specifically told you to look for him somewhere else entirely. Anyway, he's dead. And I've decided that you can't resurrect him. And you can't cast Speak With Dead on him. And no one else can help you on the quest. Anyway, you failed 6 sessions ago. I guess I probably should have mentioned it. Everything you've just done for the past 6 sessions has been for naught. Have a good night everyone! And no, you didn't level up."
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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It is a game that has some challenges, not a walking or romance simulator. You know how good D&D and roleplaying works? It's whatever the player wants it to be. In a world of infinite possibility, the world of dragons and magic spells and mystery, you think it's somehow incorrect that some people spend their time in that infinitely possible world walking around or exploring romances? In a world of infinite possibility, the only path you feel is correct is struggle? Oooooooof.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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why would anyone not romance Karlach? Are they threatened by strong, earnest women seeking bodily autonomy? Seems kinda sus, honestly.
. She's red, big, loud, one horned, weird, ugly, burning, demanding, I could continue but it doesn't really matter, I don't like her, she's only in the party to get her specific quests done and then she's at the camp eating dirt or whatever.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Checking back in. Anyone know of a way to resurrect Dammon yet?
Or an alternative to fix Karlach?
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2023
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Hey Larianettes!
Dammon explicitly tells you to look for him in the city, so many of us didn't even realize he was in the barn at Last Light until wayyyy too late. Exploration early in Act 2 is also discouraged by the shadow curse, powerful enemies, ambushes, etc. It's also so difficult to prevent Isobel from being knocked out that I had no idea it was possible to prevent it. (I save scummed twice and she kept getting ganked before my characters could even act, so I just assumed her kidnapping was a necessary plot point.) Why does the shadow curse discourage exploration? The Isobel fight is pure fucking bullshit and I am sorry you had to experience that. I have made some comments on that already as it requires meta-knowledge to prevent Isobel from being kidnapped. You basically have to take the boxes out on the Balcony and use them to barricade the doors to her room so you only really have Marcus to deal with. You can cast Sanctuary on her but she will often quite stupidly break it because her AI is terrible and stupid. You can't use AOE spells, you can't cast feign Death on her, she will break invisibility, she is wearing pajamas with no AC bonus and she will encourage every Opportunity attack possible by running back and forth...etc etc...her actual actions never contribute materially to her own defense - honestly I am convinced Selune only recruits imbeciles. At least Shar's worshippers know how to handle themselves in combat even if she is an awful, spiteful monster. I hate Isobel, seriously, she is useless, but she is also the only thing holding back the shadow curse - so you have to overcome her stupidity to save her - THAT is the real boss fight. You against Isobels stupidity. You will probably lose, good luck. And the WORST part is this fight is so FUCKING critical to EVERYTHING. It's a goddamn dumpster fire of an encounter that has SERIOUSLY bad consequences if you fail. You lose Dammon, you lose the Harpers, you lose the vendors, you lose the kids, you lose Art, you lose Halsin, you lose the chance to break the shadow curse, you may lose Jaheira, you lose Mattis, you lose Barcus, you lose half the Tieflings. Look, Larian may not get to re-evaluating this dumb encounter for a bit so really your only option is to go back and 1) win using meta knowledge, or 2) just don't ever talk to Isobel. You don't need her and you don't need to talk to her. There are other - better - ways of handling the Shadow Curse. You know, I am going to say that this is the worst encounter in the entire game from a design perspective. it's SHAMEFULLY bad. When I went through it I literally felt a pit in my stomach at the thought of other people having to deal with this bullshit because it ruins so many types of playthroughs. In Multiplayer I have had this encounter ruin games. For streamers and people who want to roleplay or not save-scum there is a 95% chance that this encounter ends badly unless you abuse meta-knowledge. If a DM dropped this encounter on a TT group we would replace the DM. Yes i 100% agree on that! Its my first playthrough (bit of a dnd noob, but i play on hard for the best experience) and i just found out, about this nonsense! So i tried multiple times, to save Isobel but was unable to. I came up with the plan to put stuff into the doors to gangbng Marcus and save her this way, but the flying demons just flew over the door?! They flew over the door where the roof was supposed to be?! One time i killed Marcus and had all my healing spells used up, and she just ran into the enemy mobs and died like an ape. So at this point i decided that i cant help this suicidal behaviour. With Jaheira it was the same, she just runs into a group and died to fast. I was way to weak (and made poor lvling decisions) so i had to flee the scene, made the Lae zel quest and farmed some lvl, came back and cleared the whole place later. Now i realise that this ruined my whole playthrough. You even told me that Jaheira is very important too. Why is it not possible to speak with the dead on these guys? I am very mad right now and i dont know if i should throw 15h in the trashbin and try to save her again. But as i said, they even flew over the doors so i have no clue how to win this fight with my low lvl at this time. Usually on my first playthrough i want to be the good guy, having a nice game.
Last edited by Moinsen; 10/10/23 12:57 AM.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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I'm pretty amazed that people are actually defending bugs and come up with the argument of consequences. Can't you just accept that some people like to play the game the way it was intended, which actually includes, well, working quests? A consequence should always be a result of my decision and not the result of error introduced by a patch trying to fix another error.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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theres another way to go entirely and its how I usually play this bit. Only mentioning it because you sound so fed up and its heavy spoilers so don't read if you want to retry the other route or just hate spoilers  . Only caveat is you do need to have Minthara's Spider Lyre, so you'll have had to find it on her body in the goblin camp and looted it and not sold it (I think you can also get one from True Soul Nere in Grymforge). Or I believe you can do a hard speech check if you don't have it but not 100% sure on that. Go into the shadow cursed lands from the mountain pass, a goblin woman will meet you tell you to use a torch and find the camp - its straight down the road you are on then bear left over a massive tree root, not very far. Little tip, if you have a speech with animals spell activate it before getting to the camp. One of the goblins is playing a rather nasty game of fetch with a rather loveable hyena and is the first goblin you will get close to, you can Paladin or True Soul intimidate the goblin to go fetch his own stick (he'll die, I have no worries about this being unfair as it was exactly what he was doing to the hyena) and then tell the hyena you are a friend and that he needs to be free of the goblins and he'll go as well (I really want to send him to my camp, he's rather adorable), thus reducing the number of enemies without starting a battle. Speak to the head honcho with the goblins and either tell him you have the lyre or pass a speech check. If you have the lyre attack them all quickly (usually about 4 of them). If not you will have to wing it a bit - I always have the lyre so I'm not sure how it works if you don't have it. Follow the quest direction to play the Spider Lyre or just find it in the common actions and do it from there. Kar'niss ( a drider) will appear from behind a tree fairly close by. Tell Kar'niss you killed the goblins (if you did) to honor the Absolute (he's weird and loves it), tell him that you aren't quite ready to leave and then suprise attack him (and any goblins) hard using cleric divine smite and anything else you have handy, he has an immunity move which you just have to push past just don't let up but if you keep at it he'll go down and he actually doesn't fight back very much if you're quick and organised. At the end of the day its one fight with one drider and 4-5 goblins as opposed to waves of enemies at the Inn and if you lose you can reroll without anyone else being affected. Loot his lantern, chat to and release the pixie inside it, she'll do a spell to enable you to resist the shadow curse which is auto transferable to any members of your party as soon as they walk into it for as long as you are in Act 2 and the bell thing she gives you will work if for any reason you go back to act 1 area and then return, use the bell and she'll redo the spell. From where you met the goblins head south west to Last Light. You are already protected so You don't need to speak to Isobel and no one will direct you to her. So you don't trigger the fight. Avoid her entirely in fact as you have no need to go upstairs there at all.
# Justice for Astarion
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2023
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You are already protected so You don't need to speak to Isobel and no one will direct you to her. So you don't trigger the fight. Avoid her entirely in fact as you have no need to go upstairs there at all.[/spoiler] I always kill the drider first but I'm still heading to the Last Light which means meeting Jaheira who will tell me to go and talk to Isobel. Dark Urge has content with Isobel, its a RPG so exploring everything and meeting everyone is a thing for many players too. Marcus fight is easy once you learn what to do so no need to totally avoid a good fight and scene and lore and also part of Mol quest.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I'm pretty amazed that people are actually defending bugs and come up with the argument of consequences. Can't you just accept that some people like to play the game the way it was intended, which actually includes, well, working quests? A consequence should always be a result of my decision and not the result of error introduced by a patch trying to fix another error. Extremely well put. Elitism and gatekeeping are among the ugliest parts of gaming culture. Some people only feel valid by discounting the way other people interact with the world.  I mean, I do question Gale and anyone who would love his narcissistic butt, but I'm not trying to brick his quest to prove a point 
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Marcus fight is easy once you learn what to do I mean, is it really easy? A low HP, defenseless character with deathwish AI and random initiative that more often than not makes skilled players lose nearly every time first turn unless you save scum multiple times until random luck or bizarrely convoluted tactics let you scrape by isn't exactly what I'd call an "easy" fight. I love the intent of the fight, for sure. The surprise angle is great. But given all the complaints and Larian's need to hotfix it multiple times, I'd say it's more like a cool event is ruined by an extraordinarily difficult, poorly designed fight.
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