Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Build Discussion Moon Druid Subclass Implementation: Discussion & Feedback

Then what's a difference between having limited wildshapes and losing a whole turn like Haste's lethargy?

I agree that Moon Druid should be able to turn into cat and such without using a wildshape charge, but your idea does not seem to consider everything else.

PER BG3.wiki:

Consumed by exhaustion in the aftermath of Haste
Can't move or take Action Icon.png Actions, Bonus Action Icon.png Bonus Actions, or Reaction Icon.png Reactions.
Duration Icons.png Duration: 1 turn

Sure, you can't take reactions, but druids don't get access to spells like Shield Or Absorb Elements in this game, so you are not losing much. To top it off, you can easily get at least 19 AC by that point.

DEX +2, Half Plate, Shield and 19 AC. That's plenty to keep you alive for the majority of acts 1 and 2.

On top of that, a party full of druids could do anything in the game. Need supplies? GOODBERRY (it's also a great healing spell when it comes to early spell slots).

Need to fight? Change into owlbears and murder everyone.

Low on hp? NO PROBLEM. Wildshape back and forth for full hp.

Get knocked out? Someone casts a sanctuary, get a good AC, turn invisible, etc.

However, losing a turn is devestating for anyone, especially for player characters. Don't believe me? Toss Hypnotic Pattern into goblin's camp and watch how they can't do anything, while you slaughter them.

To make matters worse, Larian homebrewed certain rules, so when get get to 0 hp, you lose an entire turn. At least Moon Druids can use Bonus Action to wildshape, everyone else is screwed.

What I would do is give Moon Druids in particular scaling Wildshape, based on your proficiency bonus. So at level 5 it's 3 and at level 9 it's 4. That way you can turn into animals plenty of times, while still letting other druids have their niche.

Unlimited Wildshape is still OP, unless you are level 20.

Tell us you don't know or understand D&D without telling us. But I'm pretty sure unlimited bonus action 120 HP heals are just "visionary" to people nowadays.

Let's not derail the feedback thread with passive aggression over mere disagreements. Just state why you disagree and get on with it. We can all at least agree moon druid needs changes, from quality of life like dialogue selection and face character prioritization/cutscenes to more combat and itemization related ones.

There is feedback to perceived problems and then there is "why not use a chainsaw to get the honey out of the beehive" level of feedback.


As for what they can do to make Moon Druids better - there is a thing called Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition where Circle of the Moon Druids are in the top 5 of classes. Maybe take a look at that one? It's been out for 9 years now and has spent BILLIONS of hours in playtesting.

We could start by fixing ability bugs, adding Attunement, coding Rings and a bunch of other items to work while in Wild Shape and giving Elementals their Resitances back.

Ultimately Larian will sift through here or some community rep compiling feedback for them, and they'll determine unlimited wildshapes may not be what they think of as balanced. But what they will not pick back up is snark. 5e is there, but what's not is the sheer amount of magic powerful items, which drags us behind, and I doubt people would be happy if they stripped those items away instead of more practical solutions like adapting monk gear to work with wildshapes by making our unarmed attacks count for the monk gear that enhances unarmed attacks, allow amulet/ring/armor effects including crit immunity from baldur's helm or adamantine gear to work while wildshaped. Probably would help to remove concentration from half the druid spell book and make recast or spellcasting available while wildshaped.

Healing spells also need to be improved outside life domain, throwing potions should not be more efficient healing.

My suggestion was unlimited wildshapes for the moon druid as an action, followed by a lethargic condition after coming out of the wildshape, or being forced out of the wildshape.

Meaning, if a druid with, say, 50 hp wildshaped into a form with, say, 50 hp, and then that form got bashed in combat and went down to 0 hp, then the druid would go back to regular form, with lethargy. Meaning any attacks coming in against the druid would come out of the druid's personal hit points.

Let's say the druid survives that lethargy round and only loses 20 hit points, leaving them with 30. Then the druid wildshapes again. When the druid comes out of this second wildshape they still only have 30 hit points, which could go lower if attacked, and so on.

There would be no infinite healing.

Just unlimited wildshapes buffered by a pretty rough condition between. The lethargy wouldn't be bad outside of combat, but in combat, it would act as a balance. The unlimited wildshapes would be a big draw to the class, and the lethargy would be a hefty consideration.

It's not a terrible idea. And it also makes the class stand out quite a bit from the Land Druid.

The problem is that even if it's not a heal, it's an infinite stalling shield practically speaking.

I don't want druids to just be damage sponges, which moon druids already are. I want druids to have subspec that let them specialize and excel at their specialized build. Whether as a martial analogue with utility akin to a paladin as a moon druid, to proper casters to compete with wizards and sorcs as spore and land druids.

As the game stand, you don't need huge health sponges anyways, just damage. My Gale did not die a single time in a 140 hour playthrough as a wizard. He just had misty step and mirror images, plus shadowheart heals and warding bond.

And while we're on the topic of quality of life, druid wildshapes should be able to interact with objects, namely the Banite detonation crystals and Gortash's mines. You should be able to throw in wildshapes or just rename the throw ability to Knock, imagine you're batting something at opponents with your paws.

Another interesting option would be unlimited wildshapes, but the particular form of wildshape doesn't heal between wildshapes. Meaning, if you wildshaped into a bear with 30 hit points and lost ten hit points before coming out of wildshape... next time you went into the bear wildshape, it would still only have 20 hit points left, until it healed.

So you could switch between all your wildshapes as much as you wanted to, but none of them would auto-heal between switches. Although, they could get short and long rest benefits.

Hello everyone, please explain why when you multiclass 11 druid/1 monk in wild form -AC and + AC at the same time

Bugs, same with magic items not working after Wildshape. Moon Druid suffers a lot from this, it's especially glaring when your character is skipped in dialogue due to being Wildshaped.


It reminds me a bit of a spell 'Shapechange', here is it's description. Keep in mind, that's a level 9 spell, aka a character needs level 17 to be able to cast it:

"You assume the form of a different creature for the duration. The new form can be of any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower. The creature can't be a construct or an undead, and you must have seen the sort of creature at least once. You transform into an average example of that creature, one without any class levels or the Spellcasting trait.

Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the chosen creature, though you retain your alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus listed in its statistics is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus in place of yours. You can't use any legendary actions or lair actions of the new form.

You assume the hit points and Hit Dice of the new form. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. If you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren't knocked unconscious.

You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them, provided that your new form is physically capable of doing so. You can't use any special senses you have (for example, darkvision) unless your new form also has that sense. You can only speak if the creature can normally speak.

When you transform, you choose whether your equipment falls to the ground, merges into the new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal. The DM determines whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature's shape and size. Your equipment doesn't change shape or size to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can't wear must either fall to the ground or merge into your new form. Equipment that merges has no effect in that state.

During this spell's duration, you can use your action to assume a different form following the same restrictions and rules for the original form, with one exception: if your new form has more hit points than your current one, your hit points remain at their current value."

And I have to ask what is the point of it? Switching between Wildshapes that is? Worse still sabertooth tiger has got regen, so you could switch between forms all the time and heal of any damage.

Not losing charges in dialogue worked in EA, not sure why it isn't here in the full release.

Got the same with level 1 barb. defense passive if I remember correctly. Which totalled to a +1 to AC for wild shape. Been doing a test to see if there was a dif. between balanced and tactican but doesn't look like it. I'll probably post my findings later.

I just really really really want the Primal Strike bug to be fixed before I make any suggestions for Moon Druid balance. The wild shape forms are largely used for tanking/damage in combat, and having their damage being negatively affected by this bug is very unfortunate.

I suspect it must be a hard bug for Larian to fix, considering how long it has taken them to address it (relative to other issues they have patched thus far).

Monks receive a very similar mechanic at lvl 6 (Ki-Empowered Strikes) where their unarmed attacks will count as magical when attacking enemies with physical damage resistances:

https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Ki-Empowered_Strikes

I haven't seen any reports of this mechanic being bugged on Monks?

Otherwise I don't think Moon Druid is really in that bad of a spot.

I tried moon druid and was very disappointed.
My friend went spore druid and it was mostly a gimmick.

But also very disappointed with Druid in general as far as BG3 goes.
In every RPG game i played Druids were always a "problematic" class, especially the shape shifting, but BG3 really takes the throne when it comes to how unimpressive and janky the class is.

Its like every aspect of the class is fighting against itself and trying to limit its own potential.

Another aspect where druid gets screwed in feats is Polearm master. The bonus hit with your quarterstaff neither benefits from Shillelagh nor the extra necrotic damage from symbiotic entity. It's virtually 4 extra damage for a bonus action use as a feat, it's so horrendously bad.

Yes and no. It's true that majority of druid circles are primarily casters, be it land, spore, wildfire, etc.

However, saying that Moon Druid is in animal form all the time is a bit missleading. On levels 2-4 they are probably the strongest class in game, due to having basically tripple hitpoints and spells on top of that. Their spells at that level are pretty bad though (many of which don't work in BG3 like the Moonbeam). And their progression really falls of after level 5 up to 9. At that point martials get double attack, smites, extra feats like Sharpshooter, etc. At that point, casting spells and then maybe thinking of Wild Shape is pretty standard. Case in point, Conjure Animals. It lets you summon 8 wolves, which are far better than wildshaping into a bear or something. Even at level 6 turning into CR 2 creature isn't that important. And since Druids get a ton of concentration spells, they often end up with plenty of spell slots with no way to use them, outside of maybe Lunar Mend, which is objectively worse than healing word or cure wounds. Still conjuring a small army and then running away from enemies is a valid strategy for Moon Druid. And at level 8, you can cast 'Call Lighting' turn into a bird and stay out of enemy's range, dealing damage to them from distance.

In fact, once you reach level 7, you can cast Polymorph at your ally and turn them into a Giant Ape, which is amazing due to high damage, high hitpoints, etc. However, you shouldn't be casting on yourself, as its worse than Wildshape in many ways. Your saving throws, proficiencies, etc don't carry over in polymorph. You can also use spells like Erupting Earth to deal damage and create difficult terrain, etc. As you get more levels, your wildshapes are left behind, while your spellcasting only gets stronger. Of course make no mistake, it still serves purpose, as Wildshaping often allows you to survive major damage, as Druids are known for their less-than-average AC.

That all changes at level 10. You can turn into a CR 5 elemental with resistance to all non-magical damage. That's incredible. To put into perspective out of about 2000 monsters in DND, that are not NPCs, only about 60 of them have got magical weapons, that's about 3% of all the monsters. So you can cast powerful spells, while being incredibly hard to damage and being able to fight in melee.

However, BG 3 doesn't let you do that for several reasons:

-PHB only, for the most part. Druids with only the basic book are really gimped by the lack of good spells. They don't get Absorb Elements, Summons Beasts, Erupting Earth, etc. Most of their spells there are concentrations and regardless of which subclass you take, your basic spells barely matter. That's what makes land, spores, wildfire competitive. They get extra spells Moon Druids don't.
-Primal Strike is bugged. It has been bugged since release and still wasn't fixed. Act 2 really hurts Moon Druids because of that.
-Many interactions, class features, feats don't work in wildshape or weirdly, there is a whole list on reddit.
-Magic weapons are basically everywhere. All gith have got magic weapons, later enemies have got magic weapons, etc.
-ALL Elementals don't have resistance to non-magical damage, which would still suck due to reason above.
-Enemies having immunity/resitance to physical damage in general. There is a boss in Act 2 that is completely immune to ALL physical damage, no exception.
-Due to massive power creep, Larian buffed wildshape to compensate (owlbear at 6, Myrmiddons at 10). However, Moon Druids don't get almost any items that work (as per RAW, with few exceptions), while Martials can hit like 19 times in one turn with fully Min Maxed build.
-Fixing Moon Druid isn't a matter of fixing just 'Primal Strike' the whole game is so full of broken magic items, combinations, etc that makes most casters a bit weak, with the exception of Sorcerers due to their Metamagic.

Overpowered Build number 1

TLDR: Moon Druids need more than just some bug fixes to be competitive.

One thing I would suggest is to also allow a moondruid to wild shape as a reaction when hit points hit zero if wild shape charges are left. With that I think the rest is fine. This is a powerful option to soak up some hit points without taking a knee and if you make it through the turn, you can either turn back or continue in the new form.

So, patch 3 came along, Moon Druids can now fight back from level 6 and beyond! ... And they are still kind of meh, to be perfectly honest.

Glad to see that the issues seems to be fixed, along with the other thing, where item bonuses disappeared after wildshape, forcing you to re-equip the items constantly.

Unfortunately, that's only part of the problem solved. I haven't seen anything regarding being able to cast concentration spells in wildshape, if cast prior to wildshape.

Multiclassing and feats are still a bit broken, which means you are better off going basically full moon druid than multiclassing.

We really need more items for druids, moon especially. Hell, I wouldn't mind tying exclusive wildshapes or stronger forms to magic items!

For example finding legendary ring, that lets you turn you a T-Rex (CR 8 beast), using a single charge of wildshape, which could recharge on short or long rest.

A magical tatoo, like the one's from Tasha, which boost druid's armour and work for forms in wildshape, often improving their AC.

Making Monk Gear actually work for certain wildshapes, not all of them, but maybe some of them, like bracers.

The itemization is way too weak for Moon Druid, who only brings hitpoints to the fight and in later parts of ACT 2 and 3, your HP will be gone quite soon.

There is a reason, why Sorcerer and most martials are top of the game, while Moon Druid and Land to an extent are left behind. At least Spores has got an army full of zombies.

Surprised they fixed something for druids on last patch, must of missed it when i breezed through the notes.

Edit* Holy crap this is my 1k post.

My first play through after full release was a wildheart barbarian and moon druid (Bearbarian). while I would have liked to enter barbarian rage in wildshape, I was happy I could at least maintain one I started before wildshaping. the extra deep hp pool and resistance to all damage but psychic was pretty effective, also effectively doubled the effectiveness of lunar mend (heal for +10 they need to do 20 dmg to get me back to where I was).

Are you guys really getting wrecked as Moon Druids? Is it so weak that it constantly dies in most encounters?

I understand the want for more Moon Druid specific items, and that other classes have ridiculously powerful (frankly OP at times) items. But I have a main Moon Druid and playing on Tactician and I haven't once said to myself that the class is weak. I am in the middle of Act 3, and played through all the annoying bugs (Primal Strike not working, NPCs running away from my Wild Shape or summons, etc). Frankly I never ran into an encounter that was so challenging that I thought the class was weak.

I guess if you compare it to other classes, then yeah the itemization could use some more work to make it more powerful. Plus I would like to see more Moon Druid items earlier in game versus only in Act 3. But I just don't feel like it's in *that* bad of a spot, especially with the recent patch. It's still a very good Jack of All Trades class between tanking and control, even damage with fire Myrmidon form. It call fill a lot of different party slots. It may not be the absolute best choice if you want a 100% steamrolling party, but personally I don't care about that. Maybe you do and that's fine too. For me, it is still viable as a class and more than capable of completing everything the game has thrown at it thus far.

Don't get me wrong--I would be happy to see more improvements, especially being able to use concentration spells after transforming (i.e. moon beam, call lightening, heath metal, etc). AFAIK the only concentration spell you can continue using is flame sphere, but that seems to be because its an actual summon that gets attached to your character's portrait.

Otherwise I think this latest patch put the class in a much better spot.