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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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I do not have twitter but is there a way some one or several ppl can make a tweet response with THIS thread copy/pasted into it? So it directs attention to the forum and not just thr forum members going to twitter? now that sounds like a good idea tbh
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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gods, only Karlach to make me re-log into twitter after it turned X lol
Done.
Rawr.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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That's cool, but still doesn't say much, unless GDC has some particular meaning The Game Developers Conference is a meeting of developers to discuss the gaming industry. It's run by game devs for game devs.
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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So it's march next year and specifically for other game devs, nothing worth our time. Only means they won't work on act 3 anytime soon if at all
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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How did you come to that conclusion? lol
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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I just don't get why they would: 1) put in the part where a Steel Watcher tells Karlach, to her face, in plain English, that her engine is broken because it's a prototype version of their engine;
2) let the player go to the Steel Watch Foundry and kill all the Banites and Watchers in there and free the Gondians; and then
3) not let you fix her engine.
Why even put that stuff in? Especially because #1 actually doesn't make sense, so I don't know why you would do it except to set up the outcome where you solve a seemingly insoluble problem. Here's what I mean: you have Gortash sending Karlach to Avernus, where Zariel gets to try out her brand-new prototype engine in Karlach's chest, but the thing it's a prototype for isn't going to ever be in Avernus, it's going to be in Baldur's Gate. So who made what for whom, and what did each of them get out of the deal? Did Gortash build the prototype and give it to Zariel in the deal? If so, what's he getting in exchange for both a powerful new weapon and his bodyguard? Did Zariel build the prototype? If so, why is she trading away a powerful new weapon for a single Tiefling (and not even her eternal soul, just a warm body for the Blood War)? And why did she never improve upon the design herself? Nothing in Karlach's dialogue implies that her engine is considered an early model in Avernus--if anything, the implication is that it's the standard and up-to-date model by Avernal standards, since early on she suggests that she could go to any mechanic in the hells and get a tune-up.
The whole thing makes no sense! ...except that it works as a way of setting up a good ending for Karlach. You really wouldn't think any responsible professional writer of fiction would include a plot element so knotty and nonsensical which adds nothing to the plot (there are any number of things Gortash could have traded Karlach in exchange for), acts as a big honking red herring pointing toward a specific desirable outcome so everyone will notice it and think about it, occurs in an unmissable dialogue cinematic so long as Karlach is in your party, and is never paid off. You are literally told, in explicit terms, that a version of Karlach's engine which works outside of Avernus exists, that the Gondians made it, and that the factory where it was made is right here in town. And then you can go to that factory. And you can liberate the Gondians. The only possible reason I can think of to do that would be to make me, specifically, go insane. In which case, well done, no notes, I'm losing my mind.
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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By using google for example. GDC was already this year and the next one is at the end of march 2024, plus it's game devs for game devs, which means you don't advertise things here, unless I don't know, maybe they'll want to hire some freelancers while they move onto thw new project
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2023
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It doesn't have to showcase anything new. They may as well talk about the development of this MASSIVE game we're discussing. How they made all these (other) choices work and how it waa implemented, programmed etc. How to make such huge maps with tons of NPCs work. How to even tackle such a huge project, really. It's also to teach and inspire other devs when your project did something big, new or really good.
As to the posts above re: why would they implement the infernal forge and steel watch and not let us learn/take anything from it, Larian sure as hell should be paying for my madness therapy too!
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Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2023
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Because their writing team was either screwed big time with the cut content and for some reason couldn't add one fetch quest before launch or in one of the 3 patches released already or they are worse than edgy 12 year old that just discovered wattpadd and wants to shock the world with sad story they invented
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2023
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By using google for example. GDC was already this year and the next one is at the end of march 2024, plus it's game devs for game devs, which means you don't advertise things here, unless I don't know, maybe they'll want to hire some freelancers while they move onto thw new project Regarding the timeline, any possible definitive edition will come out in August next year at the earliest, but more likely in late 2024 / early 2025. As for the event itself, they discuss their work process and I'm sure people there will be asking them about their handling of different aspects of the game. Swen himself thinks Act 3 will be the main topic. Patch 2 will likely be brought up in terms of how fast it came out and how Larian managed to do it on such short notice. That being said, nobody here expects updates about the game there. So I again don't know how you came to the conclusion that they won't be working on the game anytime soon or at all just because they're attending the conference.
Last edited by Walking Kole; 27/09/23 08:02 AM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Because their writing team was either screwed big time with the cut content and for some reason couldn't add one fetch quest before launch or in one of the 3 patches released already or they are worse than edgy 12 year old that just discovered wattpadd and wants to shock the world with sad story they invented But the thing is, even that doesn't make sense as an explanation, because if you just want to tell a sad story you don't say "by the way there's a very obvious solution to the thing making you sad, but you just don't take it." I can somewhat understand if it's the other option, because the solution I'm talking about would necessarily involve a decent amount of reactivity. You'd have to have reached a certain stage in Karlach's personal quest, it's locking you into attacking the forge, it has to react to your choice between the Gondians and the Ironhands, etc., plus you have to figure out if you're going to give Karlach another way to find out about this option if she wasn't in your party for that cutscene. So I get it if implementing it was too much to do at the last minute. But then you have to take out the interaction that hints at it! Same thing with , why are you even bothering to leave that nothing quest in the game if you don't have time to finish it? I don't think I've ever seen a quest that involved less player agency than that. You literally cannot do anything to substantively resolve that situation. The most you can do is find a piece of paper. It doesn't matter if you or not, she escapes either way. So not only is it perhaps the worst quest in the history of games, but just like with the Karlach problem, it introduces an unnecessary and distracting inconsistency. In this case, the question is why this little kid can just waltz out of selling her immortal soul to a devil , but somehow Hope, a grown woman who didn't even sign a contract with Ralph, was utterly helpless. Like how are you gonna cut content like some of the stuff they cut, but then leave in bizarre things like this?
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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Like how are you gonna cut content like some of the stuff they cut, but then leave in bizarre things like this? I think with a game this huge in scope, some things are bound to slip through the cracks. Unfortunately that also means that players and reviewers are apt to miss some of the less-shiny parts of the game before leaving glowing reviews.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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I found in the datamined dialogues an interesting conversation you can have with jaheira after the gortash confrontation scene (and by interesting i mean depressing lol) [img] https://imgur.com/f3AJgwb[/img] Its kinda disheartening that not only does jaheira also feed us the ''we did everything we could'' bullshit but the devnotes reinforce this, some devnote examples being ''jaheira listing all of the things karlach deserves but wont get. All our good intentions wont help karlach and lying about it to ourselves wont help'' and ''returning to avernus would save karlach but would also return her to slavery. [jaheira] respects what karlach wants''. The one that really got me boiling was the devnote saying ''stop looking for a point in this, its just shitty and unfair'' lmao, way to shut down players for wanting to find a solution in a crpg game where other companions (see, gale) get miracle fixes. In general the doomer-like tone of ''we cant do anything for her sorry'' here is pretty infuriating. Also the line about returning to avernus makes the patch 2 avernus ending more confusing, like why make it look so badass and empowering if for the entirety of the game its made clear karlach 1) doesnt wanna go back and 2) returning to avernus equals going back to slavery? This is all such a inconsistent mess. (This conversation can be found in Dialogs/Companions/Jaheira_InParty_Nested_TopicalGreetings.html, if anyone else wants to read it and check the devnotes)
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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I found in the datamined dialogues an interesting conversation you can have with jaheira after the gortash confrontation scene (and by interesting i mean depressing lol) [img] https://imgur.com/f3AJgwb[/img] Its kinda disheartening that not only does jaheira also feed us the ''we did everything we could'' bullshit but the devnotes reinforce this, some devnote examples being ''jaheira listing all of the things karlach deserves but wont get. All our good intentions wont help karlach and lying about it to ourselves wont help'' and ''returning to avernus would save karlach but would also return her to slavery. [jaheira] respects what karlach wants''. The one that really got me boiling was the devnote saying ''stop looking for a point in this, its just shitty and unfair'' lmao, way to shut down players for wanting to find a solution in a crpg game where other companions (see, gale) get miracle fixes. In general the doomer-like tone of ''we cant do anything for her sorry'' here is pretty infuriating. Also the line about returning to avernus makes the patch 2 avernus ending more confusing, like why make it look so badass and empowering if for the entirety of the game its made clear karlach 1) doesnt wanna go back and 2) returning to avernus equals going back to slavery? This is all such a inconsistent mess. (This conversation can be found in Dialogs/Companions/Jaheira_InParty_Nested_TopicalGreetings.html, if anyone else wants to read it and check the devnotes) If I'm correct, I had this conversation with Jaheira in camp before patch2.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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I found in the datamined dialogues an interesting conversation you can have with jaheira after the gortash confrontation scene (and by interesting i mean depressing lol) [img] https://imgur.com/f3AJgwb[/img] Its kinda disheartening that not only does jaheira also feed us the ''we did everything we could'' bullshit but the devnotes reinforce this, some devnote examples being ''jaheira listing all of the things karlach deserves but wont get. All our good intentions wont help karlach and lying about it to ourselves wont help'' and ''returning to avernus would save karlach but would also return her to slavery. [jaheira] respects what karlach wants''. The one that really got me boiling was the devnote saying ''stop looking for a point in this, its just shitty and unfair'' lmao, way to shut down players for wanting to find a solution in a crpg game where other companions (see, gale) get miracle fixes. In general the doomer-like tone of ''we cant do anything for her sorry'' here is pretty infuriating. Also the line about returning to avernus makes the patch 2 avernus ending more confusing, like why make it look so badass and empowering if for the entirety of the game its made clear karlach 1) doesnt wanna go back and 2) returning to avernus equals going back to slavery? This is all such a inconsistent mess. (This conversation can be found in Dialogs/Companions/Jaheira_InParty_Nested_TopicalGreetings.html, if anyone else wants to read it and check the devnotes) Who are these devnotes intended to be read by? Feels like a really weird lack of awareness there.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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If I'm correct, I had this conversation with Jaheira in camp before patch2. Yea this isnt a new conversation after patch 2, i just meant that what jaheira + the devnotes say about avernus kind of solidifies how much the game wants to railroad you into thinking returning to avernus is the ''bad ending'', which makes the new epilogue cutscene after patch 2 look super odd since they animated it like we're gonna be doomslayers in hell 80s action movie style lol. Its almost as if larian went against their own vision of wanting us to just let karlach die on her own terms and not send her back to hell, but then they thought we hated the ending cos it was depressing, and just said ''alright we'll make the avernus ending look fun instead! that oughta make players happy''. I dunno, its all very confusing lmao, the game seems to try so hard to tell us theres nothing we can do to save her without giving any legitimate reasons to why, and if that wasnt bad enough we're also time and again told that going back to avernus would be bad. Despite this, the game does a 180 right at the last scene and frames the avernus ending like its actually not that bad and very badass. Like if they werent gonna patch in any ways for us to save her, they couldve at least added dialogue changes that work with the new ending so its not so tonally inconsistent. Who are these devnotes intended to be read by? Feels like a really weird lack of awareness there. It depends, but here the devnotes are meant to give context to the voice director/voice actor on how to deliver the lines. So in this instance its basically to give jaheiras voice actor background into what karlach is going through, and how to talk to the player etc.
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member
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member
Joined: Aug 2023
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Yes, it feels from some conversations like they want us to believe Avernus is good ending. But in game where everything is possible they need to remove half of act3 to block all valid options how we can save Karlach.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2023
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It depends, but here the devnotes are meant to give context to the voice director/voice actor on how to deliver the lines. So in this instance it’s basically to give jaheiras voice actor background into what karlach is going through, and how to talk to the player etc. Depending on how you interpret the dev notes, it almost seems like they knew they wanted to force a tragic ending, or at least they decided on that after they wrote a possible path to save her, which they voiced (and coded part of) anyway, but then cut the solutions? It’s all such a mess, and to be honest it feels like the sort of jumble of unrefined ideas you see in a first draft manuscript. She was added very late, after all…
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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I don't have a problem with there not being a happy ending, or with the game "railroading" you into seeing Avernus as the bad ending. One of the things BG3 does extremely well is challenge the way most people think about video game companions. We're conditioned to treat our companions in ways that would, in real life, often just be enabling shitty behavior and not being a good friend. But in BG3, doing that gets you some pretty shitty people for companions by the end of things: a psycho religious zealot, an arrogant demigod, a douchey turbo-vampire, etc. At the same time, the actual relationship between the player character and the companion characters is refreshingly dynamic, with you being able to influence people and how they think without first needing to meet a certain threshold of "so-and-so liked that" points.
So with all of that said, if the only choices are Avernus or death, I agree with the game as it originally framed it: Avernus is the bad outcome. That's the outcome where you didn't respect your friend's choices, you kept pushing and pushing and pushing--and if you romanced her, you probably guilt-tripped the shit out of her. You don't know how horrific her life was in Avernus, but you can get a sense from her post-Gortash speech. And now you've pressured her right back into that same horror, just to assuage your own feelings. You pressured her into accepting a life of pain and suffering that she did not want. If you did that to someone in real life who had a terminal condition, you'd be a real asshole.
The problem only arises when they give you such an obvious third option, and even hint at one or two other possible ones earlier in the game. And then they have the gall to put the words "we did all we could" in your mouth.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2023
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Here's what I mean: you have Gortash sending Karlach to Avernus, where Zariel gets to try out her brand-new prototype engine in Karlach's chest, but the thing it's a prototype for isn't going to ever be in Avernus, it's going to be in Baldur's Gate. So who made what for whom, and what did each of them get out of the deal? Did Gortash build the prototype and give it to Zariel in the deal? If so, what's he getting in exchange for both a powerful new weapon and his bodyguard? Did Zariel build the prototype? If so, why is she trading away a powerful new weapon for a single Tiefling (and not even her eternal soul, just a warm body for the Blood War)? And why did she never improve upon the design herself? So, obviously this is pure speculation but I think I have a reason. Spoilers for Descent into Avernus 5e module.
The thing about infernal engines is that normally, they need a fuel source to even function. Souls. Rather than just to juice them up, they're needed to power an engine on an Infernal Warmachine (a mad max type style vehicle where safety doesn't exist and everything is a weapon). Now that's all well and good for Hell where Soul Coins are a currency and while rare, you can find some consistently if you make deals/kill for them. But this also means it's VERY costly to have large amounts of them for an army, so they're mostly used by warbands, the damned and the unlucky to get around Avernus while avoiding anything they're not prepared for. Having an engine, even just a prototype, that doesn't require a soul every 1-3 days you need to use it, would be a massive advancement for the armies of hell.
Now, we do only really see Gortash's half of this and making the Steel Watchers. It's possible that other advancements are being done like implementing them into War Machines. And it's also possible that due to Hell's bureaucracy that it's being slowed down.
It IS still some kind of infernal engine, so I don't think it's too much of an impossibility for a mechanic to hear problems going with it, even if they can't fix everything.
Again, all speculation. Afterall, no one is really wondering why Karlach isn't just consuming soul coins to stay alive so maybe that's just not how they work anymore. I'm currently running the module for some friends and thought this info would be neat, and maybe explain just a little bit for some of your questions.
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