Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

Yea this isnt a new conversation after patch 2, i just meant that what jaheira + the devnotes say about avernus kind of solidifies how much the game wants to railroad you into thinking returning to avernus is the ''bad ending'', which makes the new epilogue cutscene after patch 2 look super odd since they animated it like we're gonna be doomslayers in hell 80s action movie style lol.

Its almost as if larian went against their own vision of wanting us to just let karlach die on her own terms and not send her back to hell, but then they thought we hated the ending cos it was depressing, and just said ''alright we'll make the avernus ending look fun instead! that oughta make players happy''. I dunno, its all very confusing lmao, the game seems to try so hard to tell us theres nothing we can do to save her without giving any legitimate reasons to why, and if that wasnt bad enough we're also time and again told that going back to avernus would be bad. Despite this, the game does a 180 right at the last scene and frames the avernus ending like its actually not that bad and very badass. Like if they werent gonna patch in any ways for us to save her, they couldve at least added dialogue changes that work with the new ending so its not so tonally inconsistent.


It depends, but here the devnotes are meant to give context to the voice director/voice actor on how to deliver the lines. So in this instance its basically to give jaheiras voice actor background into what karlach is going through, and how to talk to the player etc.

Yes, it feels from some conversations like they want us to believe Avernus is good ending. But in game where everything is possible they need to remove half of act3 to block all valid options how we can save Karlach.

Depending on how you interpret the dev notes, it almost seems like they knew they wanted to force a tragic ending, or at least they decided on that after they wrote a possible path to save her, which they voiced (and coded part of) anyway, but then cut the solutions?

It’s all such a mess, and to be honest it feels like the sort of jumble of unrefined ideas you see in a first draft manuscript. She was added very late, after all…

I don't have a problem with there not being a happy ending, or with the game "railroading" you into seeing Avernus as the bad ending. One of the things BG3 does extremely well is challenge the way most people think about video game companions. We're conditioned to treat our companions in ways that would, in real life, often just be enabling shitty behavior and not being a good friend. But in BG3, doing that gets you some pretty shitty people for companions by the end of things: a psycho religious zealot, an arrogant demigod, a douchey turbo-vampire, etc. At the same time, the actual relationship between the player character and the companion characters is refreshingly dynamic, with you being able to influence people and how they think without first needing to meet a certain threshold of "so-and-so liked that" points.

So with all of that said, if the only choices are Avernus or death, I agree with the game as it originally framed it: Avernus is the bad outcome. That's the outcome where you didn't respect your friend's choices, you kept pushing and pushing and pushing--and if you romanced her, you probably guilt-tripped the shit out of her. You don't know how horrific her life was in Avernus, but you can get a sense from her post-Gortash speech. And now you've pressured her right back into that same horror, just to assuage your own feelings. You pressured her into accepting a life of pain and suffering that she did not want. If you did that to someone in real life who had a terminal condition, you'd be a real asshole.

The problem only arises when they give you such an obvious third option, and even hint at one or two other possible ones earlier in the game. And then they have the gall to put the words "we did all we could" in your mouth.

So, obviously this is pure speculation but I think I have a reason. Spoilers for Descent into Avernus 5e module.

I agree with pretty much everything here. The problem with the Avernus ending is that you don't keep "pushing and pushing and pushing" her to go back there. You decide if she goes during the very last cutscene. To frame the Avernus ending as a bad ending where Tav is a manipulative, egocentric dick that only cares about their feelings, not really thinking about their romance option / companion interests, it surely needs a build up or something.

Right, its weird that larian made a new epilogue cutscene for the avernus ending that frames the situation as being super cool and sick(metal music playing, karlach smoking a cigar, them actually going to fight zariels forces headon instead of i dunno, laying low?), like it completely ignores everything that karlach had been saying before. They said they were gonna give us a new ending and instead put in a cutscene thats tonally inconsistent with everything, because they thought we hated the ending for karlach due to it being depressing, which isnt the case - players hate the ending cos we dont have any ways to explore alternate paths for her like for every other companion.

If they really wanted the new avernus epilogue scene to make sense, they needed to add conversations with karlach where she comes to terms with going back to avernus with us and seems as battleready for it as she does in the ending. THAT or have her be angry and depressed that we made her go back, but i think we all know that'd just make fans even angrier so larian couldnt do that. Although the idea of larian promising us a new ending that ''karlach deservers'' and its just an even more sour cutscene of karlach saying she hates us for making her go back, is pretty funny lol.

But personally, i kinda hate the avernus ending to begin with and just want larian to expand her questline + let us fix her engine, because whether or not the avernus ending is framed as a good or bad ending doesnt matter, her character quest is still nonexistent compared to the other companions, and i dont want her story to continue on off-screen, i want to explore it ingame.

I'm not sure if even a complex game like BG3 can count with all possibilities. I thought about "similiar thing" that gondians can't save Karlach, because they implement hearts into machines, not people, so they are more engineers but we need surgeon. There was also another very good similar example few pages back, but I cannot find it.

Oh totally, I just wanted to offer some potential insight on the engine itself, at least for what we know of it.

Yeah ... sadly as far as im concerned, i am not down for the avernus ending, or for them to change karlachs dialogue/ story for that ending* to make sense* .
Her endings currently are failed states, plain and simple. The avernus eoilogue attempts to put a positive spin on that failed state.
I also HATE being railroaded in a game like bg3. Espically as she is the only companion to suppossedly be railroaded.

Ive said once ive said it again and ill say it one more time
In a game of 17k supposed endings, you should not be forcing* a tragedy on the player with a companion character. There should be a way to save her and let her stay. To allow players the CHOICE. As with every other companion you get.

Exactly, I said the same thing from the first day I registered here. With game where everything is possible and with 17000 ending with so many clues and possibilities to fix her I'm 100% sure, that something wrong happened during the development so at the end we have such a unfinished and very empty questline without proper ending. The question is. Will they improve it? And if yes, when?

There are several lines throughout the story where you can suggest that she consider going back to Avernus, so I think the set-up is there, light as it may be. But it's still not a satisfying narrative.

Their track record says yes, with a definitive edition. Whenever it comes out.

Just to derail the thread slightly, I'm very thankful to you guys for keeping the fight alive. I haven't had as much time as I did before to obsess over Karlach with classes starting and lots of new games to play, but I do still check this thread when I think of it. I'm glad to see that instead of the discourse dying out, this thread is still alive and active, and it makes me very happy that even though the new game hype has died down, everyone is still very much thinking about the issue.

I wouldn't call people who can't bear to see their loved ones die right in front of them bad people. I don't think I would've had the heart to accept Karlach's wishes to just blow up on the pier as I watched on. Especially after I heard her lament the life she'd never have.

Sometimes being a good friend means standing up to your friends for their own good. Yes, Avernus is a place of trauma for her, but trauma can be overcome. Things are different now: She's not alone anymore. There are people who love her and believe in her. This time, the pain and the struggle are worth pushing through for the promise of a better tomorrow.

On a different note, I just refuse to believe that, in DnD of all settings, the DM can't think of a single solution other than "suffering or death" for an original character. That's just wild to me. Especially considering all the ways other characters get around their problems. Heck, Wyll can get out of his contract and save his father on a technicality. And we're not even asking for that much.

But even if we assume there was no plausible way to help her, they should've shown that to us throughout the story. Dammon's not enough. We should've heard that from the Steel Watchers and the Gondians themselves. Maybe throw in the deep gnomes, too. Then, and only then, can we come to terms with the finality of Karlach's plight.

Hi everyone! If you want to discuss all things Karlach and plan a potential social media campaign to make sure our fiery friend get the ending she truly deserves, consider joining Karlach Nation Discord

https://discord.gg/T78JUNZmy

Me:


Larian:

joined! also would recommend sharing to the reddit subreddits for balders gate 3 if you havnt alrdy

So I kind of think what happened here is that they had a more substantial questline planned for her with an ending where she gets saved, with the death and avernus endings being the bad endings. Then as release got closer and things started being cut and it became clear that they wouldn’t have time to implement the good ending, the less-bad of the two remaining ones was hastily shoehorned into the good ending role. IMO this explains the weird tonal inconsistencies, as well as the reason why going back to avernus is never presented as a real option up until the very end.

Exactly, this is probably the scenario how things happeded. Combination of time pressure, bugs and inconsistencies led to cuts.