Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion The pretense of consent

This game goes a long way to make certain that there is always consent, and for the most part does a decent job.

The issue is, when it does not do that. In these cases the non-consent is often hidden by the pretended consent.

I will use Halsin as an example:

He does not take no for an answer. In fact, when rejected he is actually questioning you wether or not you are actually telling the truth - and starts to argue why you must be interested in him. In this case, my character had specifically not asked about his former relationships and I got this dialogue "You attended to my needs with the attention of a lover, not a friend."
So, because I am kind to you the implication must automatically be that I want you?

If you then say that you already have a lover, and that's why you don't want to pursue him - he immediately jumps to that meaning that you want him then. And also jumps to the other partners consent, and entirely negates Tav's agency and consent, when he starts planning your partner joining the both of you - Tav hasn't even been asked if they would be interested.

From the time you decide to just hint at some care for him, Halsin constantly assumes what your relationship should be, and emotionally manipulates you afterwards.
"I care for you so much. Do you care for me?"
Excited Tav "Yes!"
Halsin: "That's wonderful! There is just this fineprint I need to sign without you being able to make any revisions or conditions of your own. Just accept it or I will find my entertainment elsewhere. Which I will anyway, you know, but with your consent. of course this isn't an ultimatum"

Then if you reject him, he starts hitting on your romance, which in Shadowheart's case turns into this sort of guilttrip between her and Halsin.

And if you just happen to help him, you are force to have him in your party regardless. No option to politely tell him "Thanks but no thanks."

This is not consent - it is coercion disguised as manipulated consent.

"Nice guy" tactic 101.

How the hell did everything the lead writer wrote get past the sensitivity writers they supposedly had? No, wait... I answered my own question.

[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...3346f752738633e67429b547789bcc5ccfa&[/img]

So much wrong with him. I've progressed far enough into Act 2 to where he's no longer needed, yet there he remains in camp. I must check if I can send him on his way, don't want camp followers - we could become deadly mindflayers just like that! (Remember Nettie?)

He has had good dialogue up to this point but it's well known he degenerates into some sex-pest. I suppose that's believable in some way, however unwelcome. And like I say, no room for spare wheels. Jaheira, as a Harper with Baldur's Gate contacts actually has value.

I must check, but I think if I keep Lae'zel in the party, Halsin get abducted later on. A fall back option to dismissing him if the game doesn't allow it.

You can send him to retrieve Thaniel from the Shadowfell and "accidentally" break the portal.

You will fail the quest to lift the shadow curse, but the game never recognises whether or not you did that anyway so it doesn't matter and you have no Halsin for act 3.

This is the third topic about Halsin and consens - it is already discussesd in the main Halsin thread and in the Shadowheart thread. I agree fullheartedly, that Halsin is very badly and toxic written, but can we maybe collect it in one thread?

They're not listening to feedback anyway so it doesn't matter nothing will be changed.
The degenerate responsible for Halsin and Shadowheart probably gets off to this kind of thing. If anything he'll double down on it than change it.

I simply kill Halsin at first sight, and will eventually betray SH (probably), giving her the worst posible ending she could get.

If Larian didn't care for those inconsistent, I don't have to care for those cheating bastards. lol

I don't understand the poly thing. I find it disturbing. But whatever, right? If that's Halsin's character, then fine.

I would, though, prefer an option to tell Halsin I have zero interest in him or his lifestyle. That I do not--under any circumstances--want to participate. And if he keeps bringing up, subtly or otherwise, then I'd prefer an option to tell him to get out of the camp.

Regarding Shadowheart, if I'm romancing her and she starts flirting with Halsin, I'd prefer an option to tell her our relationship is over.

I'd much rather they just remove the flirting altogether if you've initiated a romance with her.
There should be flags in the game that she only flirts if you're romancing someone else.

No, the proper script should be that she flirts if you are romancing them both. In the context of an established consensual relationship between all three of them.

Whatever, same shit to me I'd never engage with Halsin to begin with the point is I want it gone if I'm romancing Shadowheart which it would be in your scenario anyway

Exactly. If they want to keep her as a poly option for whatever reason, the least they could do is have it be down to the player to trigger it. I'm fine with her flirting with Karlach in act 1 because not only do you have nothing with her there yet, she tends to even dislike you initially. But once you get the ball rolling on the relationship and go the 'good' Shadowheart route, she shouldn't be flirting anymore, unless Tav (you) are doing it as well. But as it stands, it's quite possible it in fact only happens during the 'good' Shadowheart route.

I read somewhere that he only flirts (and tries to sleep) with SH, Astarion or Karlach IF you're already on a relationship with one of them, if not, they ignore eachother.

I think keeping the flirting is fine - but Tav should have opportunity to respond to it!

How about actually getting to blast a companion for such behaviour? Give them the boot? They could be some of several degrees of response. What's annoying is crap being said and silent Tav just has to eat it up, raw, with a smile.

Btw, I think there might be opportunities to end things with SH near the end. I recall in some conversations I had weird options to say nasty things to her.

I think the topic of this particular flirting misses the greater picture.

I am speaking from the perspective of a sex-positive person. I am not poly, but part of the same broader alliance. And I think the writing does great disservice to representing polyamorous and sex-positive people. Informed and active consent is a cornerstone of the community and it really ticks me off that this crucial aspect of the lifestyle is completely disregarded in some of the writing. It is inconsistent, because there are parts where I can see that they've really implemented it properly, but then due to oversight or intentions with a character causing things to get lost in the mix, it becomes cringey, toxic and problematic.

I prefer my story to not have any representation of sex-positive characters than to have poor representation of sex-positive characters. And almost all of the other companions are actually pretty sex-positive by default and without Halsin the writing handles it well and interactions never crosses those lines where it becomes toxic.

With Halsin we are moving away from informed and active consent into assumed consent, and then we are treading uncomfortably close to rape.

I am poly IRL. But I'm straight, and I don't understand when, how and why some druid guy is flirting with me. I have no reason to turn my camp into Woodstock. I can understand with some stretch that I work as a psychotherapist for Shadowheart, Astarion, Wyll... but screenwriters have a very strange idea of how relationships should be built.
I mean, you know, Gail, I'm really sorry that your relationship with the goddess didn't go according to plan, and that you might explode... Your life is full of shit, I understand you. But that doesn't mean at all that I want a relationship with you. I don't want to at all. Having a drink together and talking about past relationships is fine, flirting is not.
Maybe the screenwriter was very unlucky in life, he did not see a normal relationship?

A lot of my friends don't care about romance in BG 3. The more thrash the more fun. They create ugly characters, run around naked, etc.
Probably the whole romantic line is made for them. Fuck the whole camp in turn and with everyone together.
Lol and you can also have a bear and a squirrel and a dog to the pile. This is of course their right and their fun.
No roleplay, just a crazy dance.
Probably this is the target category of players for Larian.

I don't know if it's their target category, but it's certainly a large percentage of the player base, and I'm sure there are devs at Larian with the same attitude. It's part of gamer culture, for good or ill.

Sure. My mistake is that I believed the promise of an interesting romantic line. I was playing DOS 2 and didn't even think about romance, given the specifics of the game. Romantic lines in BG3 are just a set of memes for hype.

All this is just the inevitable outcome of introducing 'romances' - CRPG degenerates into a soap opera as each new release tries to out-romance the previous games.


Please post if that is the case. Or if anyone knows a way to get rid of him post lift the curse quest I would be very grateful.

I wonder if this is because during EA everyone was clamoring for Halsin as a lover....