Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides Party Size Discussion

I think a party of 4 is based mostly off what they're comfortable with. Given the Divinity games which also had a party of 4. It would be easier for them to work with in terms of UI and combat balance.

Personally, I find it somewhat annoying to have to keep dismissing companions in camp just to access buffs or crafting of other characters... But hey, at least it isn't Divinity 2 where any non-party members are permenantly killed and thus never accessible (I literally used a mod for party size just to bypass this particular event, even if my first playthrough was just me and my waifu (And her demon))

In terms of having higher party limit, it would take more work in order to balance it (Be it a limit of 6 or uncapped), both for regular play and also when attempting to allow for Dark Urge type solo play (Bearing in mind that Divinity specifically also had the Lone Wolf skill to help enable solo/duo play so even a party of 4 is taking more effort to balance without such power enhancements)

The amount of work and overall gameplay feel likely played a large part in their decision to limit parties to 4 members, much like their decision to cap levels off at 12 instead of 20.

It's interesting to note that other similar games such as Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder have a party limit of 5. So maybe Larian could have pushed the limit up to 5? But honestly, at the end of the day, I'd rather they stick to their comfort zone and provide a solid game, than to potentially sacrifice quality to chase down a particular party size.

So yeah, would it be nice if we could have our entire camp come with us on our adventure all the way to level 20? Sure. But I'd rather the game release this century too!

Well i actually already posted in this Same Post Before..
But 1 think i always felt is this..
IF they Increase the Party Size will Broke the Game and Make it Super easy even in Hard difficult.. no Joke.

I Played two runs Solo in the HardMode of this Game before the New Honnor..
(BTW i already started my Solo Honor Mode.)

And Before the New Mode was Super easy even Solo..
If yu went like a Palock,Sorlock yu will Brake the Game easy.
its SUPER UPER DUPPER STRONG these combinations..
dont beleave in me ?! after 1400 hrs played i can tell yu that.. Trust in what i Say, These Combo Classes are Broken. yu become a Demigod.

And Many times During the Game at least 4,5 times yu Get a Party of 5 and made the game a Cake walk when i had a 5 man Party..
Like storming the Castle with Jaheira in act 2, the final Battle with Emperor or the Comet Gith, Halsin in act 1 yu can make hin Follow yu when yu Gank the goblin Camp and so On..
Many, Many Times the game gave yu a 5 men Party and made the game easy..
Thats Why i always Felt that they will Never increase the Party..
Another Reason its for Replay of the Game..
They Made this way to Force yu to Make More then 1 run to test all party and companions becouse in 1 run yu will never be able to actually See evrything they Have as Content..
(and in my opinion the Only Mistake they Made was.. to Make a Camping when yu could bring all of then.. if they Made a Camp Cell when yu could Only Bring 4.. this conversation would never even exist get it ?!)

Was a Mistake in the Game designe in my opinion..
If they never wanted for us to Have More then 4 Member Party.. there was no Need for a Camp when yu could Bring 6 companions..
(this only Gave People Hope and Made this Kind of Topic Pop Up.. haha)

If yu dont Beleave in me.. Just Download the No Party Limit and Gave a Try on the Hard difficult..
yu will lought on How easy it is the Game with a Bigger Party.

PoE is 5, Owlcat's games are 6.

I'm currently playing WH40K Rogue Trader on Daring difficulty (basically Core) and it is difficult enough with a party of 6. There's a Hard and an Unfair difficulty after Daring and all difficulties are fully tweakable.

The game is designed for a party of 6 with most fights involving at least twice your number of enemies. Even the boss fight at the end of the tutorial was grim. The boss was a 140 HP Chaos monster with two attacks per turn who when he got low on health devoured a minion to bump his health back up. He also had toxic gunge splash type AOE thing. At this point you only have 4 party members and you HP is 25-30-ish. You have a few ship's crew to help you but they are not great.

I doubt this thread is being monitored anymore but I wanted to bring up how the failure to increase the party size negatively impacted the development of the story.

The problem: Wyll's lack of popularity

Wyll got a complete rewrite and it left him with nothing to say. Which is shame because I like both versions of Wyll but he's almost as quiet as a merc.

The authors have acknowledged that he's a disadvantage because he's at the grove and by that time you've become attached to your existing party. But they failed to acknowledge that this wouldn't be a barrier with a 6 member party.

Wyll's rewrite really ended up deleting the first half of story so we don't see him grow as a character. Wyll 1.0 was a charlatan with a sincere desire to be a hero. His conflict was about: "do I look like a devil but act like an angel or do look like an angel but act like a devil" It was the story of Dorian Grey in video game.

I buried the lede, here it is:

Wyll is the least favorite companion but I don't think his lack of popularity springs from flaws in his story, instead they spring from the mechanical failures of the game engine and the nature of his class.

Again, the grove disadvantage wouldn't apply in a six person party. Just pick up and go.

Wyll is also a disadvantage because Warlock is a decent class for a Tav but is weak class in terms of DPS and party support. As the main character you get to speak with animals, persuade people and see in the dark. But why would you waste a class feature on speak with animals if you aren't the MC? Most people want their Tav to be the voice of the party.

And, frankly, Warlock is just not a great class - which is why WotC keeps trying to change it.

TL;DR - Larian revised Wyll thinking his lack of popularity sprang from flaws in his story. In truth his unpopularity is rooted in the flaws of the engine and game mechanics.

Yeah, it is a stupid class which never should been created. It is a needlessly complicated Sorcerer.

And yet, Karlach is extremely popular and she's after the grove.


Uhh what?

Warlock is great DPS thanks to getting CHR modifier on Eldritch Blast at level 2 (Compared to Sorc's not getting it until level 6 for their Cantrip and EvoWiz doesn't get it until level 10). Eldritch Blast also applies that CHR modifier on every beam so by level 5 you're easily getting 2d10+8. Toss in that easy to get robe in Act 2 which also applies CHR modifier to Cantrips and Eldritch Blast is doing 2d10+16 damage (Or maybe if you've gone and got 20 CHR 2d10+20) then at level 10 you get your 3d10+30. On a cantrip.

On top of that damage, you can also get your Cloud of Daggers/Wall of Fire going to melt through things (With Repelling Blast you can knock anyone who escapes their area back in too).

As for party support, Hunger of Hadar is amazing area control. You still get your Counterspell for those key spells, Command for all sorts of ridiculous shenanigans and Hold Person for the standard go-to CC.

Warlock is simply a great class in BG3. It's only downside is it's quite boring because of how absurdly good it is to just spam Eldritch Blast all day (Makes going things like Pact of the Blade feel terrible when 99.99% of the time it's better to just Eldritch Blast than swing your Pact weapon)

Wyll is simply disadvantaged because he's Wyll. Having up to 6 characters in your party won't make him any less Wyll.

I mean I'm glad you like the class and everything but in terms of DPS? Nearly everything you mentioned is better done by another class. Astarian with two daggers will do more damage with a sneak attack at level 2 than a Warlock will do at level 5. And if you aren't using that charisma for roleplay purposes dexterity is the one stat that rules them all. Initiative, trap disarming etc. Rogue does better in terms of DPS.

Admittedly the rogue can be just as boring as Warlock but Larian did a nice job of making a compelling animation for the attack.

Yes everyone build the non Tav Warlock the same way - agonizing blast, repelling blast. But Lae'zel gets bonus round push at level 1 that succeeds more often than a Warlock hits at level 4 and you at higher levels you can combine that with pushing attack to try twice. So you might enjoy trading a weapon master for a repelling blast Warlock but it's not a good decision in terms of DPS. And, of course, thunderwave from a sorcerer or wizard . . .

And by the time you get the potent robe you are at least level six which makes the favorable comparison to a sorcerer problematic.

Now I will grant that Warlock could be better if there was time pressure in the game and you needed use cantrips instead of spells. But truth be told my evo wizard rarely uses cantrips. On balanced there are no penalties for sleeping to restore spells. Indeed I need to remind myself to sleep to advance the story.

I do grant that hunger of hardar is a great spell that is good for crowd control and it comes earlier than do spells like insect plague etc but there's no comparing the party support of cleric to a Warlock.

Imo, the 5e warlock has the same problem as the 3.5 bard - it does lots of things but doesn't any of them very well.

Fun discussion

Uhmm... No?

A level 2 Rogue will do at best 3d6+5 which is less than 2d10+8 from a level 5 Warlock. You mentioned "With 2 daggers" so that would actually be 1d6+2d4+5 from the Rogue...

Even a level 11 Rogue with its 6d6 with 2d8 weapons with 20 Dex will do only 6d6+2d8+14 (40 average damage) while the Warlock is there doing 3d10+30 (45 average damage). Not accounting for any bonus damage like Warlock using Hex for an additional 3d6 damage or aforementioned Cloud of Dagger/Wall of Fire.

Throw in Haste and Warlock will take a giant steaming dump on the Rogue who'll only get a bonus 1d8+7 damage while the Warlock will get another 3d10+30.

The only things that really out DPS Warlock are the crazy Tavern Brawler builds that spam 3+ attacks per turn with Fighter, Monk or Berzerker.


And unless you're playing Solo run you don't really care about this. You only need 1 person to disarm things. You can pump up Dex because besides CHR there's nothing you really need besides Dex for AC/Init. Or you can cheat and just slap on Gloves of Dexterity.


1) If your Warlock can't hit then step out of melee of enemies before you use your ranged attacks

2) Warlock gets to push AND do their damage. Lae'zel (I assume you mean fighter) has to trade damage to push (Be it by using a Bonus Action on Shoving or by using a Maneuver Die on Push attack). Warlock can also push multiple targets because each beam of Eldritch Blast will push a target.

3) Warlock push doesn't roll a save. If you hit with Eldritch Blast, the target gets pushed. Doesn't matter how big they are. They get pushed. Shove requires a failed Athletics save (And large targets simply cannot be shoved). Pushing Attack requires both a hit AND failed Athletics save.


And again, those take resources. You use your action and a spell slot to not deal damage, but to push. Warlock does both damage and push. Also... Athletics saves need to fail to push.


Not really. When Sorcerer finally catches up to Warlock... Warlock is pulling ahead because they've got their 2 beams meaning they double dip their CHR modifier. Sorc will only get their CHR modifier once on their Fire Bolt/Ray of Frost AND has to deal with resistances (While Eldritch Blast does the rarely resisted Force damage type) the only time Sorc can really compete with Warlock is Cold Dragon consistently attacking Wet targets to get their double damage.


The thing is for Warlock, Eldritch Blast ends up just being better than most spells. Which is where Warlock's power shines. It doesn't care about resting because Eldritch Blast does more than most spells and the times when big spells matter... Warlock can still cast them too.


Honestly, as someone who only plays on Tactician/Honour mode... I'd rather have a Warlock in my party than a Cleric.

Cleric is just a one trick where you either abuse Sanctuary shenans or your 1 good spell Spirit Guardians and deals no damage otherwise since they get crap cantrips and no extra attacks.

Warlock provides great damage and multiple useful spells.

Same. I haven't bothered with a rogue or a cleric since my first playthrough. Cleric I'd consider for an abjurer multiclass build, something to try, but other than this I prefer druids as the divine spellcaster of the party. At least on tactician, haven't tried honor mode yet.

What I like about Wyll is how flexible warlocks are when it comes to multiclassinh. I've tried him as champion fighter and bard so far, was thinking draconic sorcerer next (because of his final quest).

Now add all the effects from items and coatings that you have at that point in the game. I gave Wyll-the-thief the caustic ring and the ichorous gloves which means that even without a coating the thief is adding acid damage to the target and poison damage to other enemies. And this works with both melee and ranged combat. The Warlock on the other hand has to either use a rapier in melee or move out of combat to eldritch blast. There's no penalty for switching weapons and the thief, unlike Warlock, can use its signature skill at range or in the fray.

So to keep this on topic (barely): it doesn't makes mechanical sense to trade Wyll for Shadowheart, Lae'zel or Astarian at the grove. Would you prefer level 3 warlock or a level 3 rogue in a 4 person party? And Astarian is the only viable trade - getting rid of the healer or the tank doesn't make much sense.

Yes you can build someone else for traps but, unlike EA, Shadowheart is no longer setup to open locks and Wyll isn't great either. The gloves of dexterity do eliminate that need but you get those after you've encountered many traps.

Cantrips

You are right that if you are using cantrips other than eldritch blast you have to deal with resistances but that you also miss out on the synergistic effects of the items that Larian has put in the game. The game is full of items that boost damage from cold, poison and fire damage. But, again, the only cantrip I use regularly is chill touch against enemies who can heal themselves - otherwise I use a spell or an item.

(and because I'm strange I avoid ray of frost because I think Larian's implementation is too powerful - damage + rimmed with frost + ice surface?)

Oh, and shocking grasp on steel watchers.


Spells vs Eldritch Blast

Even on tactician there's no time pressure in the the game if you've been looting all the food and, again, not resting often enough can mess up romances and story progression. Even if you are giving yourself time pressure to maintain immersion the restoration fountains, potions of angelic slumber and spellcrux amulets will restore missing spell slots.

And level 11 Gale with Curriculum of Strategy and Dethrone will do more damage in an encounter than a level 11 Warlock. (yes both will need a short rest afterwords)

So, again, I would accept that the warlock would be superior to a sorcerer, wizard or thief in another game that had timed quests but you can take as long as you like to complete BG3.

Pushing

You are right that the bonus round push requires an athletics check but it's a bonus round action that would otherwise be wasted. And it succeeds more often than not. Lae'zel can push someone into Gale's cloud of daggers as reliably as regularly as the warlock's eldritch blast hits it target. (even if they wasted misty step spell slot to get out of melee) And thunderwave will push multiple targets into the cloud . . .

I just couldn't imagine trading a warlock for a fighter.


Guidance is a crap cantrip? Spirit Guardians is the only good spell? Have you tried insect plague? Planar Ally? I admire your commitment to the discussion but if I had to choose the one trick pony from a line up I would point at the warlock before the cleric

"I cast eldritch blast"

@saeran



Fair enough, I also trade out Shadowheart for Jaheria in the late game but if we are talking about party support I wouldn't trade either for a Warlock.

Again, Wyll loses out because of his class and the 4 person party - not because his EA story was bad. If they had expanded the party they wouldn't have needed to revise his story.

No, that is not what I meant. I prefer the druid because I like their spells & summons more, as an offensive spellcaster. I don't bother with support roles, the cleric / abjurer would be an exception, because I am a bit curious how warding bond would work with arcane ward. But because I prefer offensive spellcasters, I'd take a warlock over thief. There are items that add bonus damage to the blast, and pact of the blade can melee as well, especially in darkness (my first playthrough, Wyll as warlock/ champion You can build powerful combinations with either, but the thief multiclass options are just more boring to me.

Then a healer just isn't an issue for you?

No, healing is too weak in this game. The only good thing it is for if you use the items that add bonus effects like bless etc.

Interesting. And yes I use all the bless and blade ward and heal yourself items. I don't think I would enjoy playing that way.

Now add in all the effects from other items to the Warlock too.

The fact is, Warlock will outperform Rogue for damage. It's not even close.


It makes perfect sense.

Astarion's only thing at this point is being Dex based so can do locks/traps. But according to you "dexterity is the one stat that rules them all." so why isn't Tav pumping Dex thus obfuscating the need to have Astarion? (Honestly, it's not hard to have a Tav with respectible Dex, Chr, Sta AND their primary stat of choice such as Str/Wis)

Shadowheart can go because healing sucks. Far, FAR better to prevent damage than heal it. Which Warlock can do via actually killing things (Which Cleric cannot do until Spirit Guardians) and Darkness/Hunger of Hadar.

Lae'zel can be traded out because anyone can be a "Tank" since the only real requirement by the grove is a shield and some medium armour (Since the heavy armour at this point still has the same AC as the Githyanki half-plate Lae'zel starts with or the Breastplate +1 you can "Borrow" from Dammon). Later on heavy armour becomes more important... But hey guess what? Shadowheart is a Cleric and Clerics also can wear heavy armour!

Then of course, you're already making decisions about composition by this point since by the time you reach the grove you can have encountered Shadowheart, Lae'zel, Astarion AND Gale.


Which suck.

Like the best one is the one that provides spellcasting stat to the elemental damage of your cantrips. But it's still just worse than Eldritch Blast because it already double dips on spellcasting stat by the time you get that item.


Most of those only affect SPELLS not CANTRIPS though. Honestly there aren't that many items that even boost the damage you deal. There's what, the various items that grant Heat and? That one robe that gives a bit of damage to Poison (Ignoring how crap the Poison cantrip actually is)


It's not even about time pressure. It's that Eldritch Blast actually does more damage than many spells. Like, outside of your big AoE spells and some specific things (Like upcasted Scorching Ray as Fire Dragon Sorc/EvoWiz or upcasted Magic Missile as EvoWiz because their spellmodifier as damage affects each projectile on those attacks) it'll often be simply better to just Eldritch Blast something, irregardless of spellslots.


For dealing damage? Yes.

For utility? No, but then it's not even unique to Cleric. Druids can get it. WARLOCKS can get it. There's an item right outside the Grove that gives you it.


Yes. It sucked compared to upcast Spirit Guardians.


Is decent. But is a 6th level spell. Meaning you've gone through the ENTIRE game to get your second not useless spell?


Warlock is a one-trick in terms of action usage. Cleric is one-trick based on what they overall can provide to a party.

Cleric provides a few buffs and a couple of decent spells. They provide little damage, control or utility.

Warlock provides damage, control AND utlity. Even if most of that is simple provided by Eldritch Blast spamming.

In the end, Wyll only loses out because he's Wyll.

Wyll doesn't lose because he's in the Grove. He doesn't lose because he's a Warlock. He loses because he's Wyll.

Truly? I use that and a concentration elixir to clear out the Sharran cloister. Does damage, interrupts concentration of spell casters trying to keep their distance and slows down the Sharran front liners trying to get into melee range. Follow it with a well placed ice storm and you will only face two or three Sharrans in melee.

Protection from good / evil and dispel evil really helps with the hag fight.

Spirit guardians rules act 2 but I rarely use it in act 3

Protection from evil and dispel evil really helps in the hag fight.


I assumed we tacitly agreed that Tav could be anything? Obviously if Tav is a tank you don't need Lae'zel. If you are a wizard you don't need Gale and if you are cleric you don't need Shadowheart. But even then if Tav were a tank I would take an evo wizard or a diviner over a warlock.


Dexterity is the most important stat in DnD 5e that's true - initiative, AC, damage - and charisma is only important for spell casting and roleplay. Unless you plan to make Wyll the voice of your party

I find diviners to be a bit too annoying with the constant pop ups. Once you reach shadowlands you can get two items that allow for stacking of arcane acuity, which makes either bard or sorcerer best at disabling spells, anyway. That is my current plan for Wyll, as warlock/sorcerer.

Some of the items Larian added are more powerful then class abilities.

My main problem with Wyll is, that he is very squishy. I could keep him at the sideline to cast Eldritch Blast but that does not seem quite what he is supposed to be. Maybe I just have to get used to the class more.

Funny Thing..
The Problem with Wyll Char in my opinion is this..
He is a Cartoon Hero in a Game when Evrybody is a Misfit..
a Cleric of Shar, a Thief Vampire, a Cursed Wizard and a Gith Fighter.

He is out of Place..
BTW karlach sux too.. i dont understand why people like her..
I Bet its becouse its super easy to Lay down with Her same as Halsin.
Becouse she has nothing interesting in her character Really Nothing...haha
(BTW even her coments and Lines Sux and piss me off..haha)

But the Fact is.. if they Increase the Party Size.. this game will Broke Super Hard.
Game is already Super Easy with 4 man Party and in the Few Times yu Get 5 man the game just Broke.
So There Mistake was Allowing People to Have all 6,7 companions in Camp at Once..
If they Made a Camp With Only 4 man party..
This Topic would never even be a Thing.

Instead of giving all of then Places in the Camp they should Make a Camp with only 3 companions and 1 tent for Withers and Your Tav/Durge..
This way would Make people Play the Game at least 2,3 times to See all Origins.
Im not a Game designer or nothing LIke that.. But this was a Mistake..
becouse yu Gave People Hope for a Bigger Party.. Get it ?!
thats the Mistake..

Spending 100 hours with the same few origin companions is boring as hell.