I don't think this discussion should continue in this thread - this is about the timeline not if we can trust the Emperor. But just to give you a final response:

Originally Posted by Sozz
I don’t disagree that the party and the Emperor are in a mutually beneficial relationship. That isn’t the same as being trustworthy. Our symptoms occur through use of the tadpole, I think you learn from Omeluun that the stasis the tadpoles are in ends whenever you use them. With this in mind, I don’t know if the Emperor is actually stopping our transformation, like I said it’s an unverifiable claim, but he is stopping us from being thralls to the Elderbrain.
The Emperor needs us because he wants us to be his factotum in the real world. Him helping us is not him puttIng his trust in us. The same can be said of Astarion except that you are given many more opportunities to expand and influence that relationship.

He DOES STOP our transformation as you can see in the one night cutscene that everyone has symptoms and La'zel tries to kill you and then you have the dream and the guardian does something and next day you are better. How is this an unverifiable claim?

As said before - if he wasn't the one saving us from the fall - who do you think did it?

If he would only protect you from becoming a thrall then by your logic/understanding using of the tadpole powers should transform the characters into a mind flayer anyway. But that doesn't happen in game so this is not true - he does prevent our transformation - the game shows us this.

If you trust him to the end you see that he was indeed trustworthy and using the tadpole powers have no negative effect on you aside from the one optical change from the tad pole that he told you about before taking it.

Now yes, we don't have all this information in act 1 but why would we? It is actually the fun in not knowing what is happening (unless you are like me and like to spoil yourself to plan your playthroughs of course).

And yes, you can see it with the chosen 3 - working together doesn't mean you trust each other. Same with the Emperor - you as player can decide to trust him or not. And depending how you react to him he will trust you or not (you can later after the deal with Raphael when he asked what happened ask him to trust you and to don't ask further and he will do that). He does have different dialog lines if you do not trust him and tell him this, or even tried to kill him. But he is still forced to work with you so he tries to make it work anyway. Like you are stuck with him. There aren't much more fleshed out opportunities because he was a late rewrite, we shouldn't forget this. Like Halsin - you can't influence him either.


Originally Posted by Sozz
When I say there is nothing linking the Emperor to the artifact I’m not saying that he isn’t controlling Orpheus’s powers, that’s made clear…much later. But for the first Act there is only the insinuation that our dream guardian is connected to the artifact. An insinuation that doesn’t benefit from his numerous lies of omission.
I don’t know how the scene at the goblin camp connects the relic with the guardian, it may connect the guardian with the relic as much as it connects the relic to Shadowheart.
He does nothing to garner our trust, a relationship that people in other threads already complain is railroaded into this dynamic.

At the goblin camp you learn that the artifact protects you and in your first dream with the visitor you learn that the visitor is protecting you. This is the link. Who else would protect you?

Shadowheart is only tied in the very beginning to the artifact in the way that she thinks it is important and brings it with her from the Nautiloid. If you leave her behind in camp you can see that the artifact will be in your inventory so it is clear it isn't very tied to Shadowheart. And it doesn't take too long I think until she tells you she just stole it. It is also tied to Lae'zel as she recognizes it as being of Gith origin. We know both the artifact and the guardian are protecting us so it makes sense to suspect he is inside the artifact and we can see later (before visiting him there) that this is indeed the case.

I mean, if someone wants to believe something else why not but the hint is there.

He could explain everything from the start that is right but again - why would he? You rather have him in the first cutscene appearing as mind flayer and telling you he is inside the prism and controlling this gith and so on? And you think you would then trust him more? And what development would we then have throughout the game? It is not like you get all answers with everything else in the first act - same with the companions, the whole game is about learning what is going on and how to deal with it.

We are stuck with him (until the very late end) and he with us. True. For me personally it is not an issue but I get why people would have prefered other options like a cure and then being free to do what they like.

But how does he nothing to garner our trust? He protects us from turning into a mind flayer and becoming the absolutes slave. He warns us if he notices danger (like in the creche with the machine that is going to kill and not cure). What more do you want from him?

How would he even proof to you that he is sincere? Telling you everything in the first dream? I doubt that. People see he is a mind flayer and everything he says is directly taken as being manipulative. It is like "hey, you lied before and you are a mind flayer, I can never trust you again" which is fine but what you expect from him? Your companions lie too (directly and by omission and manipulate us) and this is fine but hey, they aren't mind flayers so it is ok I suppose? Yes we can influence them but then it is ok they did what they did? They had their reasons. And the Emperor? Same, he had his reasons. And he continues to work with us regardless how we treat him because he has no choice. There is no one else. So the player holds some power over him but can't get rid of him. And the other way around. He does react differently to us depending on how we treat him but yes, there isn't much influence possible (aside from asking him to trust us and he does). Hopefully they add more later as he was a late rewrite - we know that and this is why he lacks.

Look, we aren't going to change each others mind about this. You think he is not trustworthy and I think it is up to the player and the playthrough/role playing if they trust him or not. It is a game with choices. Trusting him or trusting him not lead nearly to the same ending - just minus/plus Orpheus.

Last edited by Cawyden; 01/10/23 08:40 AM.