That would make a fine campaign but Karlach would still remain robbed of a meaningful narrative choice in her BG3 adventure to setup all of this.
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
There is a magical item in Avernus that belonged to Zariel, a sword that basically makes anyone who touches it an angelic form of themselves (it’s irreversible and the person is basically gone, kinda Astarion ascended vibes/mindflayer, but for good and celestial perfection).
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
But she’d have a big choice there - using the sword would erase herself, but also “cure” her, since her body would become “perfect”. It’s akin to Shadowheart’s choice of serving Shar.
I'm catching very heavy "Rejection of the Gift" vibes from WoW lol, where Illidan refused to become a holy entity which would erase his traumatic experiences, shouting "I AM MY SCARS" at the creature who tried to forcibly transform him and destroying it.
Awhile back when I decide to delve into some Avernus lore, I found what I thought was potential for Zariel to do a whiplash redemption story arc. It could be a fascinating character.
Fallen angel but for the "right" reasons, at least according to her. Her celestial peers did not agree so fallen she went.
She seems to make the most of it. Rising to power with the approval a big timer of the hells no less. Zariel was considered a token however, a sort of prize. The hells being able to turn an angel to their side or something along those lines.
Karlach has potential regarding Zariel redemption arc.
If Karlach were to receive some sort of intervention or fix to her engine, it would be interesting to see it go from infernal powered to maybe something like radiant powered.
Yes, that's the feeling I got too. That Karlach's fate could be tied to Zariel in that sense. A good writer could make this very nuanced and complex, which would fit the vibe of BG3. It would've been really cool.
I also thought of something like a different energy powering her, one that wouldn't consume her and was blue like the Steel Watch (or when she gets all lovey). Now that you mention radiant, it would be an awesome idea.
I also keep thinking of the hollyphant we have in BG3, Valeria. I don't know why or how she is there, but we know there is Lulu, the hollyphant who used to be friends with angelic Zariel that roamed Avernus after losing her memories. I read somewhere that Zariel found out about her (ex) friend, but could not kill her. Instead, she sent her out of Avernus and to Faerun. WHAT IF Lulu was Valeria without her memories? And somehow we find that out, and in helping Lulu regain her memories, she travels with us back into Avernus to help with Karlach/Zariel. That would've been a-ma-zing (especially if Lulu turned into the super cool golden mammoth of celestial wrath :0 )
That would make a fine campaign but Karlach would still remain robbed of a meaningful narrative choice in her BG3 adventure to setup all of this.
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
There is a magical item in Avernus that belonged to Zariel, a sword that basically makes anyone who touches it an angelic form of themselves (it’s irreversible and the person is basically gone, kinda Astarion ascended vibes/mindflayer, but for good and celestial perfection).
Originally Posted by sailorgundam
But she’d have a big choice there - using the sword would erase herself, but also “cure” her, since her body would become “perfect”. It’s akin to Shadowheart’s choice of serving Shar.
I'm catching very heavy "Rejection of the Gift" vibes from WoW lol, where Illidan refused to become a holy entity which would erase his traumatic experiences, shouting "I AM MY SCARS" at the creature who tried to forcibly transform him and destroying it.
Never heard of it. Sounds rad, though.
It's a moment that works particularly well for Illidan, it's perfectly in character and encapsulates what he is all about. Unironically one of my favourite WoW moments, cause it's earned. Long story short, (and somewhat inaccurate, but for the sake of brevity and convenience:) llidan sacrifices everything to obtain demonic powers that permanently change him, he does so in the pursuit of stopping the big bad while being shunned and exiled by everyone he holds dear. In this particular moment he gets a shot at "redemption" by this divine being, which begins to change him against his will. He proceeds to curbstomp said being while proclaiming that "his destiny is his own". He doesn't need to be purified because his actions are his own, the consequences are his to bear, his scars make him who he is and all that matters is that he sees his hunt to the end. It works because of his story, IMHO.
Now I didn't went on a WoW loresplaining spree with no intent, mind you: i just wanted to say that a similar arc for karlach would fall incredibly flat because her story so far is fundamentally different, she doesn't sacrifice anything of her own volition, she gets robbed of every single thing. However, in this imaginary scenario, it could be spun in a Vengeance/Forgiveness fashion. I personally wouldn't find it very cool, but it could work nonetheless. (Although yeah, I really don't know what asspull would be necessary to find something to justify a "Forgive and redeem Zariel" option.)
It's a moment that works particularly well for Illidan, it's perfectly in character and encapsulates what he is all about. Unironically one of my favourite WoW moments, cause it's earned. Long story short, (and somewhat inaccurate, but for the sake of brevity and convenience:) llidan sacrifices everything to obtain demonic powers that permanently change him, he does so in the pursuit of stopping the big bad while being shunned and exiled by everyone he holds dear. In this particular moment he gets a shot at "redemption" by this divine being, which begins to change him against his will. He proceeds to curbstomp said being while proclaiming that "his destiny is his own". He doesn't need to be purified because his actions are his own, the consequences are his to bear, his scars make him who he is and all that matters is that he sees his hunt to the end. It works because of his story, IMHO.
Now I didn't went on a WoW loresplaining spree with no intent, mind you: i just wanted to say that a similar arc for karlach would fall incredibly flat because her story so far is fundamentally different, she doesn't sacrifice anything of her own volition, she gets robbed of every single thing. However, in this imaginary scenario, it could be spun in a Vengeance/Forgiveness fashion. I personally wouldn't find it very cool, but it could work nonetheless. (Although yeah, I really don't know what asspull would be necessary to find something to justify a "Forgive and redeem Zariel" option.)
Now that you explained it, this sort of arc would fit Zariel if anything, not Karlach.
Still, I think that something on the lines of Karlach swallowing her hate could work to an extent. Another thing that gets only hinted at is that Karlach can be very selfish when it comes to saving her own skin. She mentions she would have not stuck out her neck for Wyll if he was in his place, and that she did not help the Elturans in Avernus. She also has no big moral issue using soul coins if it means she can win/survive. We know Avernus itself influences people and taints them, so I always thought this could be Karlach's "corruptible" aspect. Even Auntie Ethel's "custom" Vicious Mockery pull on that, saying that Karlach is not so wholesome when it comes to sacrificing herself. Some sort of story arc could have steemed from that.
Agreed, agreed. I really want to finish the game but I can’t handle her endings. They’re just too awful for somebody who is such a lovable character. So I’m just playing completely ignoring her, which makes me REALLY sad. It’s not how I want to play. I’m hopeful that I can do a Karlach-centered playthrough sometime in the future though. She’s just such a compelling, sweet, likable character, that I’m kind of obsessed. If anybody knows of ways that I or others can support justice for Karlach, other than posting online, I’d be happy to be made aware of that.
Hello and welcome to the family! As it stands, there' SO many og us who refuse to finish the game, you're not alone. Thank you for voicing your opinion!!
I just started act2 during my second playthrough and compared to my first playthrough when everything was new to me and I was excited by the game I see how empty Karlachs quest is.
I had Infernal ore from act1, entered shadowlands, goblin sent me to goblin camp, I played the lute to call drider, kill the drider during the Harpers ambush and went to their camp then talked with Dammon. End of quest. So the quest itself is not even a quest at all, I found the infernal ore somewhere in act1 and had it in inventory. Thats it
. 15 minutes in act2 to complete it and 14minutes of it I did different mandatory things not related to Karlach just to reach the Harpers camp.
It wouldn't be that bad if you could spend another 5 minutes in act 3 and actually get what you were working for but hey, guess we gonna get our fetch quest in 2 years right?
And yet doing the same thing again in act 3 just so the story makes any sense and isn't complete illogical, forced pseudotragic mess is impossible so would it seem
I was going over the dialogue files of the game, and I found something that might be strange.
There are some dialogues for avatar Karlach that mention her having a second upgrade while still in Act 1.
I never found those lines in game, as Dammon only offers a second upgrade only in the Last Light Inn, in Act 2. But they are still in the game files. So I am wondering if we were supposed to be able to have Dammon upgrade Karlach's engine twice still in Act 1, while he is still at the grove. Otherwise I don't know why there would be dialogue lines for her having had a second upgrade in the Camp Party romance dialogue files, and also in other exchanges that happen soon after, still in Act 1.
Here is one example. She has the condition KarlachSecondUpgrade and KarlachSecondUpgrade = False. I think we only got in game the second one, but it seems there was another path planned, perhaps?
Aren't those just a regular voicelines about spending night together with the condition being her engine getting upgrade or not? I remember something similar, maybe there are slight differences if she's played as origin but I don't know. Maybe there were slight tweaks to the voicelines but i'm sure it's nothing special and I heard them
Having her get fixed in the post 6 month epilogue would probably make the most sense.
Assuming the correct people survive, IE Dammon and the Gondians, having a scene where she is fixed would be the easiest to implement. Her story would still hit the emotional beats, it wouldn't require a massive quest redesign and would fit with the story.
After 6 months, Wyll will no longer have his powers, it would give Dammon enough time to find a solution and line up with him "Not giving up", and fit with the idea of us going to Avernus just until we find a solution.
It would be really weird to send Karlach BACK to Avernus after 6 months with a warlock who lost his powers and would make no sense since they've had 6 months to find a permanent fix.
Of course that wouldn't be the first thing that didn't make sense about her story so I dunno; here's hoping...
Last edited by Sunriders Destin; 01/10/2305:46 PM.
Only problem here, is she still would have NO story. Just still 2 fetch quests that fail and if you dont romance her then you could just ignore them.
First and foremost i like everyone here want her to have a happy ending, and the 6 month thing would give her that potentially. But honestly. Karlach is straight up unfinished. And deserves added content. And an in game way to fix her. I will still be pushing Larian to seriously consider revamping her questline. As that is one of the top requests from the fanbase. Every other origin character needs some tweaks here and there for sure. But to truly do karlachs story justice (Justice for Karlach!) She neefs more then a few minutes at the end of "and it allll worked out see?!"
Only problem here, is she still would have NO story. Just still 2 fetch quests that fail and if you dont romance her then you could just ignore them.
First and foremost i like everyone here want her to have a happy ending, and the 6 month thing would give her that potentially. But honestly. Karlach is straight up unfinished. And deserves added content. And an in game way to fix her. I will still be pushing Larian to seriously consider revamping her questline. As that is one of the top requests from the fanbase. Every other origin character needs some tweaks here and there for sure. But to truly do karlachs story justice (Justice for Karlach!) She neefs more then a few minutes at the end of "and it allll worked out see?!"
That's all true. Her questline is a joke.
I guess the deream-achieve would be a more fleshed out story line that either leads to a fix or will give a fix post-epilogue. And also more NPCs and unique areas for her.
Just bouncing an idea that might be the path of least resistance for the devs.
Last edited by Sunriders Destin; 01/10/2306:04 PM.
Unfortunately I think we will not see completely reworked questline at least in acts 1 and 2 because this will need an enormous amount of work to implement her "new" story into "completed" acts. As act 3 is very "work in progress" in actual state, it makes complete sence to add as much content as possible here(and this applies basically to every character and location they want to update).
The option from Sunriders Destin with fixing her "automatically" in avernus in the epilogue is also a very possible option, because this is an easiest way to do that. Basically epilog cutscene and few lines of text.
I getcha, all ideas for a better outcome are good. Im just hoping that larian sees we want more then a few lines of dialogue at the end and cinematic in the long run. Also i dont really think anything NEEDS to be added into acts one or 2. For karlach. I think if anything her added content should be after gortash fight. (That VA work after the fight is to good) something after that would be the most satisfying i think, right when she is at her lowest we find away to get her fixed either through avernus or gondians. But let it be IN GAME let us be able to pursue her questline and give it a proper ending.
I know the 6 month epilogue is the path of least resistance for the studio. But lets shoot for the stars here guys. Even if it takes a year and no changes until a game of the year edition or DE. Id much rather larian goes all in rather then a bit of pokish abd call it a day.
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