Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Is being able to Scribe all spell levels in Wizard a bug or intended?

All you need is 1 level in wizard and you can scribe all scrolls you come across if you have the combined spell level requirement in D&D 5th edition. In D&D 5th edition you CAN NOT DO THIS.

For example you are a:

- Level 11 sorcerer
- Level 1 Wizard

Currently in BG3 you can gain an extra 6 spell slots if you have 20 intelligence in this scenario. I have cheesed this by only selecting spells upon level up with sorcerer levels that dont effect spell DC eg shield, mirror image haste ect....... as i have dumped charisma to 10.

and then i picked spells like fireball and banishment with with my wizard slots that do effect spell DC.

This is crazy OP and has 2 effects:

1. Make the pure Wizard class completely obsolete as you only need 1 level in wizard and then the rest into Sorcerer to gain META magic and still have a bigger selection then pure wizards in spell selection.
2. Makes everyone wonder if this is a bug or not as you cant scribe spells like this in 5th edtiion.

Bug or not?

I can't say as I haven't really played a Wizard myself, but in the OG games, you could write spells of any level even if they weren't available to you yet.

You could have a level 9 spell in your spellbook but would be unable to memorize it to actually use it.

The way you describe it, I'm thinking it's by design.

*groan*

PHB pg 114 side box "The Spellbook"

If you have spellslots for it, you can write the scroll.

And multiclassing can give you higher spellslots. A Cleric11/Wiz1 for example gets tier 6 spellslots.





Dont know what "OG" is supposed to mean, but in BG1 and BG2 you had to be able to write higher spellslots because otherwise Wild Mages wouldnt have worked as intented.

To Clarify (Sorry Halycon):

- In 5e, you can only scribe spells to your book if they are of a level that you can prepare. You cannot scribe a 6th level wizard spell to your spell book if you cannot prepare 6th level wizard spells.


So, what wizard spells can you prepare as a Level 1 Wizard, level 19 Sorcerer? That's easy... You can prepare 1st level spells. That's it. This is because you determine the spells you can learn or prepare for each class in your multiclass separately, as though you were a single class character of the respective level.


Yes, the preparing spells section of wizard says "The spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots.", However, as a multiclass character, you Prepare your spells as though you were a single class wizard of the appropriate level - and a 1st level wizard only has 1st level spells lots. It does not matter that you have a ninth level slot - you cannot prepare a wizard spell of ninth level, and you cannot scribe a ninth level wizard spell to your spellbook.

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That's 5e. Larian's BG3, however, does not believe in things like balance or limitations, and generally their philosophy is that completely game-breaking exploits are "so funny and fun!"... So, you can rest completely assured that, whether it was the case of them not understanding the system they were designing for, or whether they understood perfectly well and chose to disregard it because they thought it would be more fun to create another ridiculous self-defeating game-break like this, it was absolutely deliberate that they coded it this way.

I may be misremembering, but I can't help but think Blackheifer got a response back from Larian saying that this issue would be fixed in a later patch.

Again, don't quote me on that. I'd have to search all over to find the post in question. Hopefully, he'll come into this thread and let us know if that's the case or if I'm completely misremembering or misunderstanding.

I will be pleasantly surprised if that is indeed the case ^.^

My 5E player's Handbook (2014 issue) reads a little differently than the previous quote. It says in the "Spellbook" sidebar, page 114:

"Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a level for which you have spell slots and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it."

So here it is based on slots, not preparation, and the multi-class slot rules are pretty clear. What I like most about the Wizard 1 multi is that you have the ability to learn from a scroll. That is part of the fun... to find a scroll you can't use yet, then eventually get to a level where you can learn and cast it.

I agree it sounds too good to be true and I didn't believe it myself until I tried it in BG3, but on the other hand, with unlimited direct casting from scrolls by any class, cleric domains, druid circles, and Bard magical secrets, I guess it kind of fits in with the 5E modus vivendi.

This is correct. Larian confirmed by email that this is a bug/exploit and that it will be fixed in a future update.


Outside of that it's pretty clear in the PHB that you can't go Level 1 Wizard/Level 11 Sorc and scribe all spells through level 6 and then cast them with Sorcerer spell slots. I mean it's complete nonsense.

This statement already proves that you dont undestand how 5e works.

There is no such thing as "sorcerer spell slots".



You get spell slots according to your spellcaster level.

Pure spellcasters (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard) give you one spellcaster level per level.

Paladin and Ranger give you a spellcaster level for every second level.

The Fighter subclass Eldritch Knight and the Rogue subclass Arcane Trickster give you a spellcaster level for every third level.

Only these spellcaster levels give you slots, nothing else.

And by the way, Warlock by the way is treated completely separately, and dont give you spellcaster levels. Well, at least according to the original rules.



And by the way a Sorcerer 11 / Wizard 1 will not cast sorcerer spells when they cast wizard spells either. They will cast Wizard spells. That means the DC depends upon intelligence, not charisma. Additionally, the number of readied wizard spells also depends upon intelligence, not charisma. Its much weaker than people seem to assume. A Sorcerer 11 / Wizard might realistically at most have Int 16, so they can only ready 4 wizard spells total.



And I repeat myself, but Page 114 is not unclear of the meaning. You can learn spells from scrolls if you have slots for it. And there are only spell slots. Not wizard spell slots or sorcerer spell slots or anything like that. You get spellslots from spellcaster level and no other source. Thats how 5e managed to allow multiclass spellcasters in the first place.

The other statement is a more general statement, not a specific one, and really refers to how to levelup.



But honestly its really tiring how the exact same discussion is repeated again and again and again.

PHB Pg 114, 2nd paragraph

“Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.”

PHB pg 164, spellcasting, 2nd paragraph

“Spells Known and Prepared. You determine what spells you know and can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a ranger 4/wizard 3, for example, you know three 1 st-level ranger spells based on your levels in the ranger class. As a 3rd-level wizard, you know three wizard cantrips, and your spellbook contains ten wizard spells, two of which (the two you gained when you reached 3rd level as a wizard) can be 2nd-level spells. If your Intelligence is 16, you can prepare six wizard spells from your spellbook.


What saddens me about this discussion is that the DnD community long since ruled on this sort of stuff years ago. If you had done even a basic google search you would have learned that. yet even then, the rules are SUPER clear. You treat each class as an individual spellcasting class, with the rules for that class specific to the class and level.

It LITERALLY gives you an example in the PHB of what I am talking about.

- Sorcerer and Wizards have wholly different spell lists. In short Wizards have more spells available to them

- The way that Sorcerers and Wizards KNOW spells is completely different. You cannot, as a Sorcerer KNOW, a Wizard spell above the Wizard class level you are.

- That you use INT to cast a Wizard spell with a Sorcerer spell slot is irrelevant. You shouldn't be able to use a Sorcerer spell slot to cast a Wizard spell and then apply Metamagic to it.

- Nor should you be able to do Wiz 1/Cleric 11 and learn ALL the wizard spells and cast them with a Cleric spell slot - regardless of if you use intelligence.


Finally.

LARIAN Confirmed that this is an exploit and that it will be fixed in a future patch.

I can share the email, but I would prefer not to go through all that trouble of scraping personal data off the fucking thing.

@Halycon Styxland

This is a bug. You can copy scrolls up to your spell slot level, but you shouldn't be able to prepare spells higher than your level.

Example: If I'm Cleric 10/Druid 2, I would still have access to lvl 6 slots, but I wouldn't be able to cast any level 6 spell, only upcast. Why would a Sorcerer 11/Wizard 1 be able to cast any wizard level 6 spell when they can't even cast anything above 1? Why can't I learn fireball from leveling up, but I can from a scroll? It doesn't make any sense.

Anyway here are the PHB rules.



This means that a Sorcerer 11/Wizard 1 can learn up to level 6 spells from scrolls but they won't be able to cast any of them past 1.

This is technically correct maybe - but I figured it would make more sense to simply stop people from learning the spells 1) Because there isn't a point and 2) it's another layer to preventing the exploit.

I mean from a Lore perspective it's just weird as fuck to allow this. You are a Wizard level 1 - but you are carrying around a spellbook with level 6 spells, and you can't cast anything past a level 1 spell.

When we copy spells into our spellbook we are deciphering them in a way that our individual minds understand the magic around spells. it's just bizzarre to think that a Sorcerer who has a totally different way of understanding a spell would even be able to do that for a spell above the Wizard level they were comfortable with.

I agree. That makes more sense. But it's important for the fix to stop you from being able to cast spells you shouldn't be able to, rather than removing your ability to learn higher level spells from scrolls, because otherwise, one thing you can do is respec into a full wizard, learn all the spells you want from scrolls, then go back to sorcerer 11/wizard 1 (assuming you keep the spells you learned, which I think you do, I'm not sure). Now you can still cast any wizard spell you want. This is why the fix should prevent you from casting.

On the contrary, I'm afraid - it seems that most people in this thread understand how 5e works better than you, at least on this particular situation.

You have been provided with the direct quoted references already, and the rules are very clear. You can only scribe spells that you can prepare, and you can only prepare spells based on your wizard level alone, as though you were a single level wizard of that level. It gives a clear example of a 3rd level wizard multiclass what would have 3rd level slots, but who cannot prepare 3rd level spells - it's right there in the book. They cannot prepare third level spells, and by the rules in the book, that means they also cannot scribe 3rd level spells into their book.



Incorrect. The quote has been given multiple times now - it's based on your ability to prepare those spells as a wizard. The quote is explicit and clear.

In the very initial publication of the book in 2014, the text read as some have mentioned, talking about spell slots, but it was swiftly errataed to correct that error, and all publication since have had the correct text. I know it can be difficult to accept when you are incorrect about something - especially if it was somethign you were very sure about and have fought for multiple times, but in this case, Halycon, I'm sorry, but you are incorrect and mistaken. Your information and belief may be based on a pre-errata copy of the PHB, and that's not your fault... but the errata was made to correct an error in publication, not make a change tot he rules; this is a situation that has been ruled on many, many times including officially; the current text is the correct text.

You can read the PHB Errata here: https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf

Spells slots don't have class, that is correct - any spell slots you gain from any class's spellcasting feature combine as described in the multiclassing rules, and can be used to cast all of your spells, barring specific case exceptions, but you do have class spells; when you learn a spell as a wizard, it's a wizard spell for you (and uses your wizard DC), even if that spell is also on the sorcerer list and you have sorcerer levels. You can use your higher level spell slots to upcast other spells, if you are unable to learn or prepare spells of that level - which will invariably happen in a multiclass full caster, and is something that the PHB also calls out.

The rules on this matter are very clear and quite explicit, and I'm sorry but your understanding is mistaken.

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Glad to hear Larian have acknowledge it as unintended, Blackheifer, we'll see how long it takes them to fix it ^.^

It looks like we might have two different versions of the 5E handbook regarding scroll scribing out there:

Version #1: "if it is of a level for which you have spell slots"
Version #2: "if it is of a spell level you can prepare"

Those are obviously different statements. My game (latest patch from last week) is following Version #1 right now. I have built my character around this feature, and now I am not feeling so good if Larian is really going to nerf my build. Ugh.

PS - thanks for errata link, we were writing at the same time! That clears it up.

In another game that I played, my character was able to study briefly under a much more advanced practitioner; she learned a few formulae (they were alchemists, not wizards, but the same rules applied) that she was able to learn at the time, but the call of adventure and danger brought that down time to an end; her tutor bequeathed her a spare book that contained one formula for each level that she couldn't understand yet (so, 5th through 9th, in her case). It was a fun RP element to let her study and read these advanced formulae in her evenings and, when she reached the appropriate level, to finally be able to codify one into her own formula book as a formula that she now understood and could use. Having higher level spells, either in scrolls or in books, can still be played with in a fun way, and it makes more sense, really, than being able to copy them into your book in your own cipher, but not be able to cast them. To each their own, of course - I'm sure there are plenty of players out there who prefer the way the rules implied this to work before the errata corrected it, and it's perfectly cool for them to run their games that way! When we're talking about the way the rules formally and officially work, though, we have to refer to the most up to date publication, which includes the official errata.

As a curio, if you're interested in a little bit of under-the-hood, the original text was not entirely a mistake, per se, it was just not as clear as it was intended to be, and many of the issues and requests for official rulings that occurred between the first and second printing were part of what led to that errata being made to clarify. The original text spoke about spell slots, under the more simple assumption that, for a single-class wizard, they would only have spell slots for spell levels that they can prepare for anyway... and that for multi-class characters, the reference treating each caster class as a single class caster of the appropriate level for spell-related things should have been clear enough... as we found out, however, that was very clearly not the case: wiggle room was left there and many readers got the wrong impression of the intent, or deliberately argued the technicalities of the hair-split, and at the time they were not wrong for doing so! So, the errata was made to clarify the intent for how the system is meant to work, not to change how it did.

Most gamers in 2023 love cheese. Can't change that. "If you don't like it, don't use it" is what is commonly argued by these people.
Larian catering to the crowd.
It will pass. Can't wait when people get tired of this.
In the meantime MODS is the only solution. But even there, 95% of mods are cheese/cheats lol.

Yes but if people playing Bg3 leads to them trying out tabletop they will end up thinking this is something that would be permitted and it could lead to a bad experience.

Then again the same could be said for BA shove and that's intended. Although it shouldn't be...

Also this particular exploit is the most wildly unbalanced one I have ever seen in the entire game.

Somebody tell me when they create a "Core Rules" mod that tightens up the gameplay. People asking for a more difficult difficulty setting, that would be a way to solve that.

Tactician + Core Rules Only + Honor mode. OMG, that sounds so fun.